If This Doesn't Charge Your Battery......You're Dead

Actually, it is a shame that people like you would be so desperate to inflict your religious views on sick, hungry children that you would feel a need to give them bibles instead of health care and food.

I suppose its a matter if caring and priorities that would cause you to deny food to starving children as opposed to trying desperately to convert them.

Great argument against the strawman you created.

I find it shameful you have to create a strawman in order to win an argument.


But :clap2: Bravo!! :clap2: Well done!!

Ah yes, the last sign of desperation from the angry fundie.

It's best you didn’t try to defend proselytizing with cynical claims that you’re doing charity work or actually trying to relieve the suffering of children. Actually relieving the suffering of sick, starving children would imply offering food, medicine and shelter. No, it’s much easier to appease your gods by taking advantage of hungry children and promoting self-serving interests.
Actually God said, feed the hungry. Obama said, turn them into a voting block......
 
Dear Cammmpbell: the Christian groups and individuals I know with the most faith in abundance have no problems spreading the word AND feeding children, elderly and needy at the same time. They do BOTH. They practice what they preach.

If you want to yell about Christians being hypocrites, and not living up to perfect charity and forgiveness; you can yell equally about leaders and politicians under Constitutional laws who fail to uphold those promises of "equal justice under law" and equal protection of all people's interests under govt jurisdiction. the church and state both fail at their own laws.

Cammmpbell, look up the websites do a search on JUDICIAL or LEGAL ABUSE. You will find as many horrifying stories as you do under religious/cult abuse. Any authority concentrated collectively in the hands of the few is prone to corruption and abuse because we are human.

The difference, Cammmpbell, between abuse of church authority and state authority, is that the govt policies are MANDATORY. You should be equally if not MORE afraid of govt abuse of power than you are wary of religious abuse by church groups which are voluntary.

And Cammmpbell, if you are NOT afraid of govt abuses, but HAVE FAITH that these can be corrected by applying govt laws to check itself (instead of throwing all govt and law out the window because of corruption) then why not have the same faith that church groups can also be corrected by holding them to their own laws, the same way we do with state laws.

Why are you targeting one group, which is voluntary and not forced on you, while not equally panicking about state and govt corruption and violations which are mandatory for us?

If you can forgive and trust govt to be corrected instead of thrown out, why don't you have equal faith in religious groups being corrected the same way? Why one and not the other??

20,000 donated Bibles sought | Livingston Daily | livingstondaily.com

The fingerprints of those participating in a "huge" youth-led Bible drive this holiday season will travel across the globe, according to the Rev. Jason Woolford, executive director of Christian Resources International.

A youth group of SonRise Church hopes to donate 20,000 Bibles by Dec. 20 to the Fowler-ville-based nonprofit.

"We just wanted to do something to get the name of God out there," said Jordan Belanger, 14, whom the Rev. Patrick Erck credits with the idea.

I'm sure those starving children, over a billion if the whole world is included, might not be too thrilled since they can't eat a bible.

Yeah, and look how much Americans spent getting the vote out instead of investing in fixing things directly. Are you criticizing that equally as you do this push to get Bibles out? Which will last longer, Cammmpbell, a Bible or a bunch of campaign literature? Think about it!

That's a load of it. Don't try to shit a shitter. I was knee deep in the church for nearly forty years. A member of the Brotherhood, taught Sunday school, helped with programs like vacation bible school and RA Boys. Helped to coordinate religious retreats, visited sick people once a week...Tuesday evenings. Raked old folks yards in the fall. Worked on the building committee. Gave personal testimony in nearby towns.

By the time building maintenance and/or expansion, mortgage payments, preacher's home and travel expenses, contributions to funds like Lottie Moon and missionary programs, improvements to the property, incidentals, 10% to the convention or denomination headquarters, etc....................the poor be damned. Like I've said too many times. The sell what you have and give it to the poor deal just doesn't happen.

Most people don't want to know what the church does with their tithes. That way they can feel all soft and cuddly after they put their envelope in the plate.
 
Most people don't want to know what the church does with their tithes.

But God said to be good stewards of our money..........
So, who knew better, God, or the people that threw money at your church because they didn't understand the Bible, or the church for not being good stewards of their money? I just gave you 3 participants. Which one is not like the others? :)

Had they, and your church followed God's advice, the needy would have been taken care of BEFORE those tithes ever made it to the church, the church would have be able to carry out it's duties without being encumbered by sustenance issues, and the givers, well, they are promised a blessing of 7 fold their gift.
^ Find fault with that.

Deut.14:27-29
"... bring the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, and the fatherless and the widow . . . may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do"
Our Father figured out a system to care for the needy and bless us at the same time. But, then again, that's Dad for ya.


It is ok for you to turn your back on a religion that doesn't get it.
Not ok to turn your back on a God that does.

Cornerstone Ministry donates 6 million.......
^ so far this year. And built and supplies orphanages in the Middle East.
Too bad you didn't go to that church. You could still like God.
 
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Most people don't want to know what the church does with their tithes.

But God said to be good stewards of our money..........
So, who knew better, God, or the people that threw money at your church because they didn't understand the Bible, or the church for not being good stewards of their money? I just gave you 3 participants. Which one is not like the others? :)

Had they, and your church followed God's advice, the needy would have been taken care of BEFORE those tithes ever made it to the church, the church would have be able to carry out it's duties without being encumbered by sustenance issues, and the givers, well, they are promised a blessing of 7 fold their gift.
^ Find fault with that.

Deut.14:27-29
"... bring the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, and the fatherless and the widow . . . may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do"
Our Father figured out a system to care for the needy and bless us at the same time. But, then again, that's Dad for ya.


It is ok for you to turn your back on a religion that doesn't get it.
Not ok to turn your back on a God that does.

Cornerstone Ministry donates 6 million.......
^ so far this year. And built and supplies orphanages in the Middle East.
Too bad you didn't go to that church. You could still like God.

You're quite simply"Full Of Shit!"

Churches are self serving man made organizations consisting of structures by the millions, oak and mahagony pews, stained glass, fancy steeples, carpeting, expensive musical instruments and sound systems, etc. Preacher's homes are ususally provided by the church and travel expenses always are.

70%-80% of donations are used locally or for foreign missions and 10% is sent to the convention or denomination headquarters. If they didn't operate tax free many wouldn't even break even. Nowhere in the new testament are there instructions to build a church. The poor be damned.
 
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20,000 donated Bibles sought | Livingston Daily | livingstondaily.com

The fingerprints of those participating in a "huge" youth-led Bible drive this holiday season will travel across the globe, according to the Rev. Jason Woolford, executive director of Christian Resources International.

A youth group of SonRise Church hopes to donate 20,000 Bibles by Dec. 20 to the Fowler-ville-based nonprofit.

"We just wanted to do something to get the name of God out there," said Jordan Belanger, 14, whom the Rev. Patrick Erck credits with the idea.

I'm sure those starving children, over a billion if the whole world is included, might not be too thrilled since they can't eat a bible.

Ask the Red Cross the nutritional value of cash.........
 
Bibles are going to help hungry and sick children?

That's what selfish, angry thumpers such as you believe.

I'll bet your charity comes with a sinister message of hate and coercion.

No, but no one is saying ithey would.

That's a strawman of your creation.

Link me to a quote from those providing the Bibles that their intent it to feed hungry children with Bibles.

No actually my charity(s) of which there are several has just the opposite outcome.
Actually, it is a shame that people like you would be so desperate to inflict your religious views on sick, hungry children that you would feel a need to give them bibles instead of health care and food.

I suppose its a matter if caring and priorities that would cause you to deny food to starving children as opposed to trying desperately to convert them.

So, let me get this straight, giving children bibles is an attempt to starve them?



Should we just throw money at them like Democrats?
 
Quite clearly, a pitifully small amount of charity is delegated by the church thumpers.

Starving children need food and medical care. If something can be seen as a positive here, maybe the starving children can burn the bibles to stay warm at night.

Church is the only charity?

Well that's what ignorant people like you think anyhow.

I'm willing to bet you're not a charitable person.

Bibles are going to help hungry and sick children?

That's what selfish, angry thumpers such as you believe.

I'll bet your charity comes with a sinister message of hate and coercion.

No, yours does.

If I didn't know better I would think that you think the Bible is evil. Are you repelled by Christianity. Does the Gospel scare the holy crap out of you. (no pun intended)
 
Actually, it is a shame that people like you would be so desperate to inflict your religious views on sick, hungry children that you would feel a need to give them bibles instead of health care and food.

I suppose its a matter if caring and priorities that would cause you to deny food to starving children as opposed to trying desperately to convert them.

Great argument against the strawman you created.

I find it shameful you have to create a strawman in order to win an argument.


But :clap2: Bravo!! :clap2: Well done!!

Ah yes, the last sign of desperation from the angry fundie.

It's best you didn’t try to defend proselytizing with cynical claims that you’re doing charity work or actually trying to relieve the suffering of children. Actually relieving the suffering of sick, starving children would imply offering food, medicine and shelter. No, it’s much easier to appease your gods by taking advantage of hungry children and promoting self-serving interests.

Again, I'm not angry. Idiots like you are amusing to me.

You expect me to defend your strawman argument? Ain't gonna happen.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Please provide proof that the recipients of these Bibles are in fact sick, starving children and they are being taken advantage of to promote a self-serving interest to appease my God.
 
20,000 donated Bibles sought | Livingston Daily | livingstondaily.com

The fingerprints of those participating in a "huge" youth-led Bible drive this holiday season will travel across the globe, according to the Rev. Jason Woolford, executive director of Christian Resources International.

A youth group of SonRise Church hopes to donate 20,000 Bibles by Dec. 20 to the Fowler-ville-based nonprofit.

"We just wanted to do something to get the name of God out there," said Jordan Belanger, 14, whom the Rev. Patrick Erck credits with the idea.

I'm sure those starving children, over a billion if the whole world is included, might not be too thrilled since they can't eat a bible.

Ask the Red Cross the nutritional value of cash.........

Oh I love it. The Sandy storm will expose the hundreds of high salaried family and buddies of those who run that scam. I worked for a company for 41 years and if you cared much for your raises and relationship with management you donated to the local Red Cross every year. At one time they came up with a "fair share" which amounted to a regular deduction from one's paycheck each week or month. Back in the 1980's Elizabeth Dole served as their president and earned $300,000 a year......in today's bucks over half a million.

That's not the end of it...lately Anderson Cooper has a "Keeping Them Honest" program on CNN which has exposed several supposed Veterans charities who and which when confronted were in cahoots with a central organization who got most of the money and none of it ever reached the vets.

One of my uncles was in N. Africa during the second world war and was wounded. In the field hospital one day the Red Cross folks showed up to make pictures. They passed out cartons of Lucky Strike cigarettes to a couple of dozen wounded and he swore that after the pictures were made the Red Cross folks took the cigarettes and departed. Every time after that if someone mentioned Red Cross he started cursing.

I wouldn't send my money to one of those scams under any circumstances.
 
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Great argument against the strawman you created.

I find it shameful you have to create a strawman in order to win an argument.


But :clap2: Bravo!! :clap2: Well done!!

Ah yes, the last sign of desperation from the angry fundie.

It's best you didn’t try to defend proselytizing with cynical claims that you’re doing charity work or actually trying to relieve the suffering of children. Actually relieving the suffering of sick, starving children would imply offering food, medicine and shelter. No, it’s much easier to appease your gods by taking advantage of hungry children and promoting self-serving interests.

Again, I'm not angry. Idiots like you are amusing to me.

You expect me to defend your strawman argument? Ain't gonna happen.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Please provide proof that the recipients of these Bibles are in fact sick, starving children and they are being taken advantage of to promote a self-serving interest to appease my God.
Of course not, you're not the angry fundie..... snicker.

I didn't expect you to be honest about the goal of the church group which is simply proselytizing. And, not that I would accuse you of being honest, let's understand that distributing bibles in India and Africa doesn't imply that bibles are going to business executives.

Which is a charitable gesture? The man who gives a dime with loving intent to help a hungry child, or a man who begrudingly gives a bible and makes sure he has enough to eat? If you answer the man who begrudingly gives a bible, then one's concern is not on the child in need but for the person giving (usually because one's concern is for self-gratification).


Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the awe of Heaven should be upon you. --Talmud, Ethics of the Fathers, I:3
 
Ah yes, the last sign of desperation from the angry fundie.

It's best you didn’t try to defend proselytizing with cynical claims that you’re doing charity work or actually trying to relieve the suffering of children. Actually relieving the suffering of sick, starving children would imply offering food, medicine and shelter. No, it’s much easier to appease your gods by taking advantage of hungry children and promoting self-serving interests.

Again, I'm not angry. Idiots like you are amusing to me.

You expect me to defend your strawman argument? Ain't gonna happen.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Please provide proof that the recipients of these Bibles are in fact sick, starving children and they are being taken advantage of to promote a self-serving interest to appease my God.
Of course not, you're not the angry fundie..... snicker.

I didn't expect you to be honest about the goal of the church group which is simply proselytizing. And, not that I would accuse you of being honest, let's understand that distributing bibles in India and Africa doesn't imply that bibles are going to business executives.

Which is a charitable gesture? The man who gives a dime with loving intent to help a hungry child, or a man who begrudingly gives a bible and makes sure he has enough to eat? If you answer the man who begrudingly gives a bible, then one's concern is not on the child in need but for the person giving (usually because one's concern is for self-gratification).


Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the awe of Heaven should be upon you. --Talmud, Ethics of the Fathers, I:3

You have a reading comprehension problem.

But ok, if it makes you feel better to think I'm angry then suit yourself.

You sure seem to know a lot about this church. What was the name of it again? And what denomination are they?

Again your assuming facts not in evidence.

If you're going to accuse these people of such things then you should show sufficient evidence.

BTW I have no idea who Antignos of Socho is. Nor do I care.
 
Again, I'm not angry. Idiots like you are amusing to me.

You expect me to defend your strawman argument? Ain't gonna happen.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Please provide proof that the recipients of these Bibles are in fact sick, starving children and they are being taken advantage of to promote a self-serving interest to appease my God.
Of course not, you're not the angry fundie..... snicker.

I didn't expect you to be honest about the goal of the church group which is simply proselytizing. And, not that I would accuse you of being honest, let's understand that distributing bibles in India and Africa doesn't imply that bibles are going to business executives.

Which is a charitable gesture? The man who gives a dime with loving intent to help a hungry child, or a man who begrudingly gives a bible and makes sure he has enough to eat? If you answer the man who begrudingly gives a bible, then one's concern is not on the child in need but for the person giving (usually because one's concern is for self-gratification).


Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the awe of Heaven should be upon you. --Talmud, Ethics of the Fathers, I:3

You have a reading comprehension problem.

But ok, if it makes you feel better to think I'm angry then suit yourself.

You sure seem to know a lot about this church. What was the name of it again? And what denomination are they?

Again your assuming facts not in evidence.

If you're going to accuse these people of such things then you should show sufficient evidence.

BTW I have no idea who Antignos of Socho is. Nor do I care.
Your issue is that you feel an entitlement to press your religious agenda and you recoil in panic when that agenda is challenged.

It's really a simple matter to come to conclusions. Charity is a separate issue from proselytizing. You are unable or unwilling to make a distinction.
 
Of course not, you're not the angry fundie..... snicker.

I didn't expect you to be honest about the goal of the church group which is simply proselytizing. And, not that I would accuse you of being honest, let's understand that distributing bibles in India and Africa doesn't imply that bibles are going to business executives.

Which is a charitable gesture? The man who gives a dime with loving intent to help a hungry child, or a man who begrudingly gives a bible and makes sure he has enough to eat? If you answer the man who begrudingly gives a bible, then one's concern is not on the child in need but for the person giving (usually because one's concern is for self-gratification).


Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the awe of Heaven should be upon you. --Talmud, Ethics of the Fathers, I:3

You have a reading comprehension problem.

But ok, if it makes you feel better to think I'm angry then suit yourself.

You sure seem to know a lot about this church. What was the name of it again? And what denomination are they?

Again your assuming facts not in evidence.

If you're going to accuse these people of such things then you should show sufficient evidence.

BTW I have no idea who Antignos of Socho is. Nor do I care.
Your issue is that you feel an entitlement to press your religious agenda and you recoil in panic when that agenda is challenged.

It's really a simple matter to come to conclusions. Charity is a separate issue from proselytizing. You are unable or unwilling to make a distinction.

Show me one time where I have pressed a religious agenda.

There you go building yet another strawman.

Why not answer the challenge instead of dodging it?
 
20,000 donated Bibles sought | Livingston Daily | livingstondaily.com

The fingerprints of those participating in a "huge" youth-led Bible drive this holiday season will travel across the globe, according to the Rev. Jason Woolford, executive director of Christian Resources International.

A youth group of SonRise Church hopes to donate 20,000 Bibles by Dec. 20 to the Fowler-ville-based nonprofit.

"We just wanted to do something to get the name of God out there," said Jordan Belanger, 14, whom the Rev. Patrick Erck credits with the idea.

I'm sure those starving children, over a billion if the whole world is included, might not be too thrilled since they can't eat a bible.

Ask the Red Cross the nutritional value of cash.........

Oh I love it. The Sandy storm will expose the hundreds of high salaried family and buddies of those who run that scam. I worked for a company for 41 years and if you cared much for your raises and relationship with management you donated to the local Red Cross every year. At one time they came up with a "fair share" which amounted to a regular deduction from one's paycheck each week or month. Back in the 1980's Elizabeth Dole served as their president and earned $300,000 a year......in today's bucks over half a million.

That's not the end of it...lately Anderson Cooper has a "Keeping Them Honest" program on CNN which has exposed several supposed Veterans charities who and which when confronted were in cahoots with a central organization who got most of the money and none of it ever reached the vets.

One of my uncles was in N. Africa during the second world war and was wounded. In the field hospital one day the Red Cross folks showed up to make pictures. They passed out cartons of Lucky Strike cigarettes to a couple of dozen wounded and he swore that after the pictures were made the Red Cross folks took the cigarettes and departed. Every time after that if someone mentioned Red Cross he started cursing.

I wouldn't send my money to one of those scams under any circumstances.

Yet anyone who dared to go around the Red Cross was criticized by Obama supporters.

Give to the Salvation Army. I know they're a Christian group but at least most of the donations do some good. I was a bell-ringer when I was a Key Club member in H.S.
 
Ask the Red Cross the nutritional value of cash.........

Oh I love it. The Sandy storm will expose the hundreds of high salaried family and buddies of those who run that scam. I worked for a company for 41 years and if you cared much for your raises and relationship with management you donated to the local Red Cross every year. At one time they came up with a "fair share" which amounted to a regular deduction from one's paycheck each week or month. Back in the 1980's Elizabeth Dole served as their president and earned $300,000 a year......in today's bucks over half a million.

That's not the end of it...lately Anderson Cooper has a "Keeping Them Honest" program on CNN which has exposed several supposed Veterans charities who and which when confronted were in cahoots with a central organization who got most of the money and none of it ever reached the vets.

One of my uncles was in N. Africa during the second world war and was wounded. In the field hospital one day the Red Cross folks showed up to make pictures. They passed out cartons of Lucky Strike cigarettes to a couple of dozen wounded and he swore that after the pictures were made the Red Cross folks took the cigarettes and departed. Every time after that if someone mentioned Red Cross he started cursing.

I wouldn't send my money to one of those scams under any circumstances.

Yet anyone who dared to go around the Red Cross was criticized by Obama supporters.

Give to the Salvation Army. I know they're a Christian group but at least most of the donations do some good. I was a bell-ringer when I was a Key Club member in H.S.

LMAO!!!

Sucker
 
Oh I love it. The Sandy storm will expose the hundreds of high salaried family and buddies of those who run that scam. I worked for a company for 41 years and if you cared much for your raises and relationship with management you donated to the local Red Cross every year. At one time they came up with a "fair share" which amounted to a regular deduction from one's paycheck each week or month. Back in the 1980's Elizabeth Dole served as their president and earned $300,000 a year......in today's bucks over half a million.

That's not the end of it...lately Anderson Cooper has a "Keeping Them Honest" program on CNN which has exposed several supposed Veterans charities who and which when confronted were in cahoots with a central organization who got most of the money and none of it ever reached the vets.

One of my uncles was in N. Africa during the second world war and was wounded. In the field hospital one day the Red Cross folks showed up to make pictures. They passed out cartons of Lucky Strike cigarettes to a couple of dozen wounded and he swore that after the pictures were made the Red Cross folks took the cigarettes and departed. Every time after that if someone mentioned Red Cross he started cursing.

I wouldn't send my money to one of those scams under any circumstances.

Yet anyone who dared to go around the Red Cross was criticized by Obama supporters.

Give to the Salvation Army. I know they're a Christian group but at least most of the donations do some good. I was a bell-ringer when I was a Key Club member in H.S.

LMAO!!!

Sucker

Yes, give to Obama instead.

He'll put it to good use, trust me.
 
Yeah, and look how much Americans spent getting the vote out instead of investing in fixing things directly. Are you criticizing that equally as you do this push to get Bibles out? Which will last longer, Cammmpbell, a Bible or a bunch of campaign literature? Think about it!

That's a load of it. Don't try to shit a shitter. I was knee deep in the church for nearly forty years. A member of the Brotherhood, taught Sunday school, helped with programs like vacation bible school and RA Boys. Helped to coordinate religious retreats, visited sick people once a week...Tuesday evenings. Raked old folks yards in the fall. Worked on the building committee. Gave personal testimony in nearby towns.

By the time building maintenance and/or expansion, mortgage payments, preacher's home and travel expenses, contributions to funds like Lottie Moon and missionary programs, improvements to the property, incidentals, 10% to the convention or denomination headquarters, etc....................the poor be damned. Like I've said too many times. The sell what you have and give it to the poor deal just doesn't happen.

Most people don't want to know what the church does with their tithes. That way they can feel all soft and cuddly after they put their envelope in the plate.

Dear Cammmpbell: I would address this as two different problems rolled together
(1) financial/real estate management of churches as in physical operations
(2) spiritual development of the people making up the churches

I agree that both have problems.
Here is how I would solve them, instead of bitching about these problems existing:

(1) for financial management, I am recommending to charities, especially church ministries and nonprofits that don't charge money for their services and outreach, to learn to buy and manage rental real estate, similar to for-profit investors, where all the money coming in by donations or business investments goes into purchasing property at 100% tax write off as a business. Then use this property to teach volunteers how to "fish" how to generate sustainable income, not for personal profit, but to funds the nonprofit work. So you basically do the same for-profit business model as profession investors, but apply this model to generate ongoing funds for the charity. So this is more sustainable than relying on tithes and donations which get used up as one-time deals. You would build a base, and then use the base to fund the operations over time. If people do this, the you don't lose the money coming in on paying one-time light bills, or paying for supplies or food; you invest that longterm into real assets that stay with the church to continue generating funding. And the best things are (a) the volunteers learn how to become self-sufficient by being trained in the same financial and property management as business investors use (b) by using passive income to support themselves and their nonprofit work, they will have more time to do their outreach by not having to work full time jobs to donate portions each month to pay, because the rental properties would generate the money to cover operating costs (c) the real estate purchased can be used as rentals to help disabled, elderly, vets, mentally ill, etc. and set up school campuses where interns can be trained to provide services to the needy

(2) For spiritual development, instead of judging people on how much they give to the physical church, I find it is more critical to assess what gifts each person has to offer. Some may have a gift of mentoring people in business rather than in spiritual processes of recovery forgiveness and growth internally. Instead of judging this, I would encourage people to pick the outreach of their choice, find out what skills or knowledge they enjoy sharing, and volunteer in providing that to where the need is the greatest. When you start looking at people and situations this way, there is no need to judge and reject anyone. Every person and every part of the system has a purpose, and they can all work together.

I personally help with counseling people to overcome conflicts or issues they haven't resolved or forgiven, either mentally or emotionally or whatever level they are stuck with negative thoughts or judgments from the past. Once these are let go, forgiven or even loosened up a little, then people can see more clearly how to use their natural gifts and talents to help other. I find it very common for people to give up on one group, and go someplace else, if they are meant to take a different path to connect with new people and resources they would not have run across otherwise. So I try not to judge that either.

Cammmpbell whatever you are looking at in life, remember there is a good purpose for that system or institution; and as we correct what is wrong or abused with each one, we can work toward using each person or thing for a greater purpose that helps more people!

I hope this helps you see that even starting with a messed up system, whether the church or state, religious or political structures, these can be used to ORGANIZE people and resources to provide help in effective sustainable ways, NOT repeat the mess from the past.

Lastly Cammmpbell, please remember there is a difference between the local physical church and the SPIRITUAL church body which is all the people united in Peace. As there is a different between the local physical govt and the COLLECTIVE people as the govt which is all of us united under one Law. The point in life is to live by the SPIRIT of the laws that join us, and then let that guide and govern our physical actions in the real world. Put the spirit of the laws first, the rest will follow. Problems in our physical world, relations, and institutions can be resolved by working together in agreement in the spirit of truth and love of justice and humanity. This is true of both church institutions and state/govt that need reform.

All these things you point out Cammmpbell, can be corrected as we organize our resources.
 
The Word of God has more power to change the lives of people than anything else, including the use of violence.

Teach people that they are to labor six days and rest on the seventh. To honor their parents. To love their neighbor. You will find more people that will produce food, more food to provide to those who need and more helping hands to teach the people more.
 

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