If the USA had just shot the Southern attackers for treason,

[Syriusly]

Wrong.

Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.

Except that nobody on Earth actually argues that that was the start of the war, you know, because the war didn't start until after the April firing on Fort Sumter when Lincoln initiated the blockade on Southern ports.

You claimed Lincoln orchestrated Ft. Sumter. Clearly, he did not. Clearly, the Confederates had already fired on Ft. Sumter before Lincoln was president.

Anyone who has bothered to study the event, knows Lincoln purposely provoked the attack on Ft. Sumter for nefarious reasons. Those reasons included changing public opinion in the North to go to war and invade the South.

All other federal installations in the South were relinquished without a fight. One would think you might wonder why Ft Sumter held out. Did you know that not one person died in S. Carolina's bombing of Ft Sumter?

An attack on federal property is an attack on federal property. This isn't rocket science.

Please stop the misdirection. Can we debate honestly?

No one disputes S. Carolina fired on Ft Sumter. Why the strawman argument?

It is clear Lincoln set up events at Ft Sumter. Does this mean anything to you?

Is it your belief that since S. Carolina militia fired on Ft Sumter, Lincoln was justified in invading the entire Confederacy causing the deaths of 800k Americans and destruction of half the nation?

It is my belief that the Confederate States set the entire war in motion by first declaring a separate government and then by firing on Federal troops, thereby causing the deaths of 800,000 Americans and destruction of much of the rebel states.

 

[Syriusly]

The Southern states were not traitorous when they seceded; they had every right to do so. The only traitor was Lincoln,

So you and he say.

Meanwhile- in the real world- the United States that emerged from the Civil War ended up being the nation we are now- the dominant nation in the world.

Move on.

 

[Syriusly]

Not for lack of trying were no Federal troops killed. And yes- Lincoln knew attempting to resupply the forts would likely prompt a response- but not resupplying the forts would have been a response too.

Yes- Lincoln was smart enough to wait until the South fired on Union troops first.

Yes, not resupplying the forts would have sent the message that Lincoln was interested in diplomacy, but he wasn't. He wanted to bring the south to heel and force them to pay their tribute to his government. .

Lincoln intended to keep the Union intact- it had nothing to do with 'paying tribute'.

The South provoked the War- they made the decision to attempt to leave the Union- and they fired the first shots of the war.

Lincoln's own words from his first Inaugural Address:

"The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

So yes, he intended to keep the Union intact--because he wanted the south to continue paying their taxes and tariffs, in other words, their tribute, to the federal government.

LOL- that is the only thing you got out of his entire address on the issue?

Lincoln spoke at length about why the separation of the Union was wrong:

But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity. 15

It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances. 16


I therefore consider that in view of the Constitution and the laws the Union is unbroken, and to the extent of my ability, I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all the States. Doing this I deem to be only a simple duty on my part, and I shall perform it so far as practicable unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withhold the requisite means or in some authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself.

And his closing was very prophetic:

In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it." 34


I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.



And the South chose to fire the first shots of the civil war.

Yes, I quoted the relevant part. Yes, he made up nonsense about how the Union is perpetual and how it somehow predated its own establishment, but his reasoning for why he wanted to save the Union was clear. To collect his tariff. The tariff was, of course, one of the central platforms of his campaign.

He mentions the tariff once in that address- and to you that is the only issue.

Republican Party National Platform 1860
At the 1860 Republican National Convention, Abraham Lincoln became the Presidential nominee. The Republican platform specifically pledged not to extend slavery and called for enactment of free-homestead legislation, prompt establishment of a daily mail service, a transcontinental railroad and support of the protective tariff

 

[Uncensored2008]

instead of engaging in war for the theft of national lands and attacks on United States citizens, would the Confederate apologists still be whining or would we have been well past their century plus whine fest?

Rati, you're dumb as a dog turd.

But even for you, this is fucking stupid.

Drink another quart of cheap vodka and eat some more paint chips...

 

[Uncensored2008]

How do you shoot the Confederates who orchestrated the secession without going to war? It doesn't seem likely that they'd simply turn themselves in or let Union soldiers come hang them in their own states.

Rati has an IQ of about 6 - she didn't think about that...

 

[Ravi]

Wrong.

Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.

Except that nobody on Earth actually argues that that was the start of the war, you know, because the war didn't start until after the April firing on Fort Sumter when Lincoln initiated the blockade on Southern ports.

You claimed Lincoln orchestrated Ft. Sumter. Clearly, he did not. Clearly, the Confederates had already fired on Ft. Sumter before Lincoln was president.

Anyone who has bothered to study the event, knows Lincoln purposely provoked the attack on Ft. Sumter for nefarious reasons. Those reasons included changing public opinion in the North to go to war and invade the South.

All other federal installations in the South were relinquished without a fight. One would think you might wonder why Ft Sumter held out. Did you know that not one person died in S. Carolina's bombing of Ft Sumter?

An attack on federal property is an attack on federal property. This isn't rocket science.

Please stop the misdirection. Can we debate honestly?

No one disputes S. Carolina fired on Ft Sumter. Why the strawman argument?

It is clear Lincoln set up events at Ft Sumter. Does this mean anything to you?

Is it your belief that since S. Carolina militia fired on Ft Sumter, Lincoln was justified in invading the entire Confederacy causing the deaths of 800k Americans and destruction of half the nation?

Supplying your federal troops is an obligation of a president. Aside from that, you jumped in here calling something a strawman argument when it was part of the discussion between another poster and me, so blow it out your ass.

 

[Ravi]

How do you shoot the Confederates who orchestrated the secession without going to war? It doesn't seem likely that they'd simply turn themselves in or let Union soldiers come hang them in their own states.

Execute them on the spot for attacking US interests.

Then we wouldn't have a Democrat Party

You mean Republican. Back in those days, the Republicans were the liberals.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You mean Republican. Back in those days, the Republicans were the liberals.

Do you get a commie treat when you yap the big lie, Rati?

 

[bodecea]

With the exception of Gettysburg, all major battles were in Confederate territory. The Union invaded a foreign country.

Antietam wasn't a major battle?

 

[Agit8r]

We should come to a compromise. Say that any of the original 13 Colonies may secede (in the form of their present government borders) whereas if any state added subsequently wants to no longer be a US State, they may only revert back to territorial status. Problem solved.

No state can have more "rights," for lack of a better term, than another.

Well, the argument goes, "well, they entered the Union voluntarily..." except that doesn't work for states which were gifted statehood out of federal possessions.

 

[Agit8r]

You mean Republican. Back in those days, the Republicans were the liberals.

Do you get a commie treat when you yap the big lie, Rati?

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say liberal, but they were sure not what passes for conservatism today. They were heavily protectionist, moderately laborist, and believed in an expansive role for federal power. And of course the Radical wing of the party was the forbear of Republican progressivism.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

But why fight a war to stop them? Lincoln's reasons are obvious: He didn't want the protectionist U.S. to compete with a free trade Confederacy. But what reasons could anybody alive today possibly have? Certainly most people in the Union were in fact happy to see the south leave, especially the abolitionists who knew that the fugitive slave clause was now even less enforceable. It wasn't until Lincoln orchestrated Fort Sumter that he was able to change public opinion. So, again, who cares if the south secedes?

How did Lincoln orchestrate Ft. Sumter when he wasn't even president when the first shots of the war were fired by the South OVER Ft. Sumter?

Lincoln was President in April, when the shots that actually started the war happened. The war obviously did not start in January when Buchanan was still in office. Dishonestly attributing what I said to the obvious wrong date doesn't make you clever.

Wrong.

Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.

Except that nobody on Earth actually argues that that was the start of the war, you know, because the war didn't start until after the April firing on Fort Sumter when Lincoln initiated the blockade on Southern ports.

You claimed Lincoln orchestrated Ft. Sumter. Clearly, he did not. Clearly, the Confederates had already fired on Ft. Sumter before Lincoln was president.

Again, purposefully misconstruing which event I'm talking about doesn't make you clever.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Lincoln was President in April, when the shots that actually started the war happened. The war obviously did not start in January when Buchanan was still in office. Dishonestly attributing what I said to the obvious wrong date doesn't make you clever.

Wrong.

Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.

Except that nobody on Earth actually argues that that was the start of the war, you know, because the war didn't start until after the April firing on Fort Sumter when Lincoln initiated the blockade on Southern ports.

You claimed Lincoln orchestrated Ft. Sumter. Clearly, he did not. Clearly, the Confederates had already fired on Ft. Sumter before Lincoln was president.

Anyone who has bothered to study the event, knows Lincoln purposely provoked the attack on Ft. Sumter for nefarious reasons. Those reasons included changing public opinion in the North to go to war and invade the South.

All other federal installations in the South were relinquished without a fight. One would think you might wonder why Ft Sumter held out. Did you know that not one person died in S. Carolina's bombing of Ft Sumter?

Of course- South Carolina could have just you know- not fired on Fort Sumter.......

Not as if Lincoln made them command 'fire'......South Carolina made the conscious choice to proceed to war.

Firing the first shots of the Civil War.

Yes, they did. Stupid move on their part, given how it ended. Doesn't excuse the fact that Lincoln provoked it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We should come to a compromise. Say that any of the original 13 Colonies may secede (in the form of their present government borders) whereas if any state added subsequently wants to no longer be a US State, they may only revert back to territorial status. Problem solved.

No state can have more "rights," for lack of a better term, than another.

Well, the argument goes, "well, they entered the Union voluntarily..." except that doesn't work for states which were gifted statehood out of federal possessions.

Irrelevant. Once granted statehood they can have no less rights than any other state.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yes, not resupplying the forts would have sent the message that Lincoln was interested in diplomacy, but he wasn't. He wanted to bring the south to heel and force them to pay their tribute to his government. .

Lincoln intended to keep the Union intact- it had nothing to do with 'paying tribute'.

The South provoked the War- they made the decision to attempt to leave the Union- and they fired the first shots of the war.

Lincoln's own words from his first Inaugural Address:

"The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

So yes, he intended to keep the Union intact--because he wanted the south to continue paying their taxes and tariffs, in other words, their tribute, to the federal government.

LOL- that is the only thing you got out of his entire address on the issue?

Lincoln spoke at length about why the separation of the Union was wrong:

But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity. 15

It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances. 16


I therefore consider that in view of the Constitution and the laws the Union is unbroken, and to the extent of my ability, I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all the States. Doing this I deem to be only a simple duty on my part, and I shall perform it so far as practicable unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withhold the requisite means or in some authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself.

And his closing was very prophetic:

In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it." 34


I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.



And the South chose to fire the first shots of the civil war.

Yes, I quoted the relevant part. Yes, he made up nonsense about how the Union is perpetual and how it somehow predated its own establishment, but his reasoning for why he wanted to save the Union was clear. To collect his tariff. The tariff was, of course, one of the central platforms of his campaign.

He mentions the tariff once in that address- and to you that is the only issue.

Republican Party National Platform 1860
At the 1860 Republican National Convention, Abraham Lincoln became the Presidential nominee. The Republican platform specifically pledged not to extend slavery and called for enactment of free-homestead legislation, prompt establishment of a daily mail service, a transcontinental railroad and support of the protective tariff

I've mentioned several times in this thread that tariffs weren't the only issue regarding the war as a whole. Obviously the south had several reasons for seceding; northern apprehension, in many cases, about enforcing slavery laws and the spread of slavery to new territories chief among them. Lincoln's prime motivator for fighting the war, however, is clearly tariffs, and taxes more generally.

 

[Ravi]

How did Lincoln orchestrate Ft. Sumter when he wasn't even president when the first shots of the war were fired by the South OVER Ft. Sumter?

Lincoln was President in April, when the shots that actually started the war happened. The war obviously did not start in January when Buchanan was still in office. Dishonestly attributing what I said to the obvious wrong date doesn't make you clever.

Wrong.

Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.

Except that nobody on Earth actually argues that that was the start of the war, you know, because the war didn't start until after the April firing on Fort Sumter when Lincoln initiated the blockade on Southern ports.

You claimed Lincoln orchestrated Ft. Sumter. Clearly, he did not. Clearly, the Confederates had already fired on Ft. Sumter before Lincoln was president.

Again, purposefully misconstruing which event I'm talking about doesn't make you clever.

You are pretending something that simply isn't true and getting upset because I've pointed it out.

 

[gipper]

The Southern states were not traitorous when they seceded; they had every right to do so. The only traitor was Lincoln,

So you and he say.

Meanwhile- in the real world- the United States that emerged from the Civil War ended up being the nation we are now- the dominant nation in the world.

Move on.

There is but ONE good thing to result from Lincoln's War. The termination of slavery.

The bad things are too numerous to list, but at the top of the list is the US became a nation ruled by a small corrupt elite, followed immediately by the horrible death and destruction and the deification of a lying, murderous, and terribly corrupt politician.

Lincoln's total war on fellow Americans can never be justified.

 

[Syriusly]

Lincoln intended to keep the Union intact- it had nothing to do with 'paying tribute'.

The South provoked the War- they made the decision to attempt to leave the Union- and they fired the first shots of the war.

Lincoln's own words from his first Inaugural Address:

"The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

So yes, he intended to keep the Union intact--because he wanted the south to continue paying their taxes and tariffs, in other words, their tribute, to the federal government.

LOL- that is the only thing you got out of his entire address on the issue?

Lincoln spoke at length about why the separation of the Union was wrong:

But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity. 15

It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances. 16


I therefore consider that in view of the Constitution and the laws the Union is unbroken, and to the extent of my ability, I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all the States. Doing this I deem to be only a simple duty on my part, and I shall perform it so far as practicable unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withhold the requisite means or in some authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself.

And his closing was very prophetic:

In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it." 34


I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.



And the South chose to fire the first shots of the civil war.

Yes, I quoted the relevant part. Yes, he made up nonsense about how the Union is perpetual and how it somehow predated its own establishment, but his reasoning for why he wanted to save the Union was clear. To collect his tariff. The tariff was, of course, one of the central platforms of his campaign.

He mentions the tariff once in that address- and to you that is the only issue.

Republican Party National Platform 1860
At the 1860 Republican National Convention, Abraham Lincoln became the Presidential nominee. The Republican platform specifically pledged not to extend slavery and called for enactment of free-homestead legislation, prompt establishment of a daily mail service, a transcontinental railroad and support of the protective tariff

I've mentioned several times in this thread that tariffs weren't the only issue regarding the war as a whole. Obviously the south had several reasons for seceding; northern apprehension, in many cases, about enforcing slavery laws and the spread of slavery to new territories chief among them. Lincoln's prime motivator for fighting the war, however, is clearly tariffs, and taxes more generally.

Lincoln's prime motivator for fighting the war, however was clearly maintaining the union. As he said many times- he would do what was necessary to maintain the Union.

From the Second Inaugeral Address

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil-war. All dreaded it -- all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war -- seeking to dissolve the Union, and divide effects, by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.

One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern half part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said f[our] three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"


With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan -- to achieve and cherish a lasting peace among ourselves and with the world. to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with the world. all nations.

Not one word about tariffs.

 

[whitehall]

Shot- when where? What's the point? America was less than a hundred years old and New Jersey was the last state to outlaw slavery barely ten years before the Civil war. The Southern states (legitimately?) called the Union quits and went on their way. Why would modern low information lefties assume that "they" (civilians?) should have been shot after the Union was restored?

 

[Ravi]

Try reading for comprehension.