If the South had won......

[Toronado3800]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

If somehow both nations lasted divided until World War II then Hitler would of probably conquered both countries. Though many in the the South would of saw eye to eye with Hitler probably.

I feel war weariness or a couple poor political events could have resulted in protracted Southern independence.

What would the south have ended up like....which nations in 1865 were most like the south....?

A poor collection of overgrown city states? Italy? Germany? But with no industrial history and governed by a bunch of racist, lazy, slave loving soon to be inbred folks who feared centralized power? Ripe for a nut to take over and blame the jews or some one for their problems after the industrial revolution?

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On a side note the battles for Moscow and Pearl Harbor occurred in the same month.

Stalingrad started before and Torch but didn't turn for the Russians until after it. If you think Torch had much direct effect.

Kursk wasn't going well for the Germans from the onset. Would transferring 90% of the garrison defending the French coast had made a difference? Probably in the disaster the Germans had thereafter.

The middle of the next year was Normandy.

Unless England collapsed, Russia grew weary of the war by 1949, or Hitler ever developed the bomb I question if full American involvement in Europe was necessary.

In the Pacific I guess 2/3 of the industrial might of America could have beaten back the Japanese if it didn't need further split by the war in Europe.

 

[amrchaos]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

Interesting question. It was the Confederates who fought for the right of the people to govern themselves. I guess if people are controlled by big government, they'll be able to start unnecessary wars, create huge deficits and redistribute wealth as they see fit.

Which people had the right to govern themselves??

 

[rdean]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

Interesting question. It was the Confederates who fought for the right of the people to govern themselves. I guess if people are controlled by big government, they'll be able to start unnecessary wars, create huge deficits and redistribute wealth as they see fit.

Who governed the blacks?

 

[rdean]

The south was conservative, just like it is today. If the Confederates had won, we would probably still be driving horse drawn buggies with only a small portion of the country able to read.

 

[HUGGY]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

Interesting question. It was the Confederates who fought for the right of the people to govern themselves. I guess if people are controlled by big government, they'll be able to start unnecessary wars, create huge deficits and redistribute wealth as they see fit.

Ya that's what they were about. And by "people" you surely do not mean african decendants.

The problem with the civil war is that it was stopped too soon...EVERY slave owner, seller, transporter and supporter should have been executed. There should have been no amnesty nor exception.

This would be a much more superior country if the gene pool had been cleansed of those willfully ignorant and retarded southerners.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

we know that is why the south lost.....if the had won and the north surrendered the south would dictate terms.....

the question is.... would they have split the country.....united it under southern rule....or chopped it up into nation states.....

The South had no chance to "win" all they could hope for was that in the 64 election Mc Clellen won and STOPPED the war. The only way the South survived was if the North stopped fighting. And that would have been on the Norths terms.

I don't know if they had "no chance", but the deck was stacked against them.

If a few factors had favored Lee at Gettysburg, the Army of Northern Virginia would have made it's way to Washington and Lincoln would have been in a pickle.

I Kind of doubt that. Since the battle started when Meade was only on his third day as head of the AOP, he pretty much fought the battle with just a portion of his forces. He sitll had a lot left over.

And Lee couldn't have done much but raid Harrisburg. He was already having straggler problems because the roads went from dust in VA, to sharp stones in PA. There is no way he could have crossed the mountains to threaten DC.

If Meade had a bit more of whatever courage, Dutch or otherwise, Grant had, he could have ended the ANV before the end of the summer. All he had to do was get between Lee and the Potomac anywhere along the river. Lee had no more artillery power and was short on munitions.

Lee took huge risks all the time, and got away with them. At least until the spring of 64. After Grant came in, he couldn't play games like that anymore.

As far as post war, I think a couple of states (MS, NC and MS come to mind) would probably have descended into black run states with the whites murdered and chased off like in Haiti. The remaining part of the confederacy would have deceneded into military autarchies in short order. Like Mexico and other South American states, they would have been dependent on foreign loans, and invaded and crushed when they defaulted.

I could see VA and TX coming back in as dependencies stripped of their slaves and chopped into sections and non voting territories until the 20th century.

But victory for the south would have been a disaster world wide. Not just the US.
Could England have passed the last reform bills if universal suffrage had proved such a disaster? Could Prussia have put Germany together if the other German states didn't have the lessons of a functioning federal state with universal suffrage for the Reichstag.
And Japan also put its house in order in the 1860s.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

if the south had won she would have occupied the north and dictated terms...so we would have been united under southern rule not northern rule......

or we would have divided up into a bunch of nation states and all hell would have broken loose and we would have been overrun by the french....

Thats funny, the French...By 1861 the French couldn't effectively control Mexico, arguing for their ability to control anything north of the Rio Bravo is just plain silly.

They ran the place up until 1867, and the big loss to them was when Sheridan moved into Texas and began slipping arms to Juarez. French power in Mexico had a symbiotic relation with the Confederacy. The big loss to the confederacy was when Grant took Vicksburg and all those french rifles that had been coming in through Matamoros.

And the French being the French, how long before they went from being the nice benevolent neighbor to the big bully with the big guns.