If the South had won......

[elvis]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

 

[Modbert]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

If somehow both nations lasted divided until World War II then Hitler would of probably conquered both countries. Though many in the the South would of saw eye to eye with Hitler probably.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Unlikely.... But I think the south would definitely have become a third world kleptocracy in short order. It was going backwards politicly and economically.

I think it would also have broken into pieces, and the pieces along the mississippi would probably be like Haiti or Cuba today. Other chunks would have been re absorbed as parts of other states. KY and TN would have broken into pieces, and the pieces would either be impoverished sinkholes or reconstituted states.

Slavery lasted in Cuba until 1898. I don't believe it would have lasted in any part of the CSA past 1880. either through slave rebellion or economic pressure, the loss of territory to expand into was choking it to death by 1860

Interesting set of what ifs though

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

I don't see why they would have.

 

[xsited1]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

Interesting question. It was the Confederates who fought for the right of the people to govern themselves. I guess if people are controlled by big government, they'll be able to start unnecessary wars, create huge deficits and redistribute wealth as they see fit.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Great question, Elvis. I do not believe that either the US or the CSA would have fallen to any outside power. They were simply too strong independently.

The only two nations in the Americas to end slavery by war were Haiti and the U.S. Cuba ended slavery in 1880 when the Cortes of Spain abolished it. The age of imperialism, colonialism, and nationalism would have continued in Northern America as the two white nations would have expanded, one to the west, the other to the south. The minorities would have continued to suffer in both nations.

Conflict would have come to the North if the California west wanted to become independent, and I think California would have wanted British Vancouver and the Hawaiian Islands. That would have brought in the British. The South, an agricultural based on slavery, would have expanded into the Caribbean and would have come in to conflict in Mexico with the French.

Hitler, I am thinking, may have never come to power in Germany because WWI would not have occurred as we understand it today. The continental alliances would have formed the same, I think, but I believe the U.S. and the CSA would joined opposing alliances, thus negating the advantage that the U.S. gave the Triple Entente in the war.

 

[Old Rocks]

I think that the CSA would have broken up almost immediatly. First Texas, then quarrels between Virginia and the other southern states.

It is doubtful that the transcontinental railroad would have been completed in the time that it was. Perhaps leading to the balkanization of the continent below the Canadian border.

It would have been a far differant world.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Hitler, I am thinking, may have never come to power in Germany because WWI would not have occurred as we understand it today. The continental alliances would have formed the same, I think, but I believe the U.S. and the CSA would joined opposing alliances, thus negating the advantage that the U.S. gave the Triple Entente in the war.

That's Harry Turtledove's take on this version of Alternate history, and it is definitely one I think is credible.

I highly doubt that the CSA would have fallen apart until at least WWI. A victory on their part, together with support and aid from Europe, would have kept them afloat up until a WWI front opened in the Northern Hemisphere. After that, who knows what would have happened.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

I doubt it. Who knows though BUT I know there would be grits on every menu across the land!

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Hitler, I am thinking, may have never come to power in Germany because WWI would not have occurred as we understand it today. The continental alliances would have formed the same, I think, but I believe the U.S. and the CSA would joined opposing alliances, thus negating the advantage that the U.S. gave the Triple Entente in the war.

That's Harry Turtledove's take on this version of Alternate history, and it is definitely one I think is credible.

I highly doubt that the CSA would have fallen apart until at least WWI. A victory on their part, together with support and aid from Europe, would have kept them afloat up until a WWI front opened in the Northern Hemisphere. After that, who knows what would have happened.

A singe resource based economy with a servile population that outnumbered the masters by as much as 7:1 in some places...? And that resource is inferior in quality and higher priced than what could be purchased elsewhere?

Incredibly in debt

The entire industrial base in one small town.

In order to keep the slaves in line, the entire white population would have to be maintained as a standing army, and slaves just don't work well. Ask Mao or Stalin about that. Look how much Russia has moved forward since dumping slavery in the early 90's. Look how much China has advanced since the 1980's.
Place would have been miserably poor, rocked by perpetual revolution, and as backward as Albania.

 

[mudwhistle]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

Populists like the Democrat Party never would have taken on this facade of caring about blacks.

 

[JakeStarkey]

They were Populists and seating blacks at national conventions before merging with the Democratic Party in 1896, having to give up their support for black rights as part of the deal.

Mudwhistle truly needs to learn her history.

 

[mudwhistle]

They were Populists and seating blacks at national conventions before merging with the Democratic Party in 1896, having to give up their support for black rights as part of the deal.

Mudwhistle truly needs to learn her history.

The Civil War was before 1896. If the South had won their independence slavery would still be in effect at least for the next 100 years. Most of the blacks would have remained in the South thus negating any effect black voters would have had on elections.

I think you need to learn up a bit yourself.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Populists, Mudwhistle, were the apex of an agrarian revolt in the South and the West, beginning in the 1870s and climaxing in 1896. The Democratic Party made the Populists give up black civil rights in return for merging with the Democrats.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Well, if the south had won, then there would have been no merger of interests after the war.

It would have hurt the Midwest a lot too. It would have been the end of the Mississippi as a great carrier of trade. At least south of MO. the great transit would have been along the Ohio-Mossouri system.

And if the populists gave up civil rights to get a merger, they did very badly on the deal

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not if, they did: fact. They were a 3rd party that was just too sectional in its interests. Good comment about Mississippi's role as a carrier of trade. However, I think the two countries would have continued trade.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

They would have to support that Army. Taxes would be extreme. The south began collecting tariffs on Northern goods as early as January 1861.

 

[manu1959]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

if the south had won she would have occupied the north and dictated terms...so we would have been united under southern rule not northern rule......

or we would have divided up into a bunch of nation states and all hell would have broken loose and we would have been overrun by the french....

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not at all. The South did not have the military strength to garrison the North and dictate terms other than that of independence. If the South had tried that, the war would have continued until every southerner in arms was dead.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Would both nations eventually have been conquered? Was "united we stand, divided we fall" just hyperbole?

if the south had won she would have occupied the north and dictated terms...so we would have been united under southern rule not northern rule......

or we would have divided up into a bunch of nation states and all hell would have broken loose and we would have been overrun by the french....

Unlikely. The south simply wanted independence, not control.