If Social Security Had Been In Private Accounts The Stock Market Drop Could Have Been A Disaster

[David_42]

Yes, and how many people will fail to succeed in surviving these crashes without damage? How many will have enough or find someone trusted?

In the right wing "future", picture a 90 year old woman in a nursing home, trying to access the DOW to see if she'll get kicked out of the home when there's some dips.........Or try to tell the bastards that run the nursing home, "....wait, I was assured that the market always bounced back..."

Also picture the emergence of a bunch of shysters who will "manage" nursing home-bound people's market portfolio.

In the left-wing "future" elderly will protest in the streets and clash with police because Social Security is broke, and the country is bankrupt. Elderly will be forcibly removed from banks where they used to draw their deposited Social Security checks, and huddle around closed government hospitals and pharmacies desperate for treatment and medication. They will line up for trays of free soup on the street, in the cold. They will burn wood, causing smog throughout the cities, because they can't afford gas heating anymore. And ultimately having swallowed the lies of the left, and ended up impoverished, kill themselves....


View attachment 48820

Elderly fighting with police.

View attachment 48821

About to be removed by police, crying in front of the national bank...

View attachment 48822

Closed government hospital....

View attachment 48823

Closed government pharmacy....

View attachment 48824

Being fed trays of soup out on the street....

View attachment 48825

Clouds of smoke above Athens from people burning wood for heat.

View attachment 48826

Thousands form a shrine to an elderly pensioner who committed suicide. The suicide sparked day so riots and clashes with police.

Unlike the mythical right-wing "future", this left-wing future is here now.... in Greece.

What you see illustrated above is the future of America, if we follow your left-wing ideology like Greece did.

The sad thing about those photos is that the fools in them probably just voted in a socialist government.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

 

[Andylusion]

Well, no shit.
If Social Security Had Been In Private Accounts The Stock Market Drop Could Have Been A Disaster

The stock market continued a period of volatility on Monday. Media reports sounded the alarm as the DOW opened 1,000 points down and other indexes took huge hits, only to climb back up a bit later in the day. While that performance, which had some people calling it black Monday, may have knocked a good deal of money out of people’s 401(k) retirement accounts, Social Security benefits remain by and large untouched by such fluctuations.

Some Republicans, however, are interested in changing that.

In June, presidential candidate Jeb Bush said that he thinks the next president will have to try to privatize Social Security. Others have gotten behind the idea as well: Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) drafted a plan in 2013 that included partial privatization, and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) is in favor of using private accounts. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) has included privatization in his budget blueprints.

The market drop, and ones before, expose the dangers of such a plan, which usually entails diverting some or all of the money workers contribute to Social Security through their paychecks into private investment accounts. That would put individuals in charge of making smart enough investment choices in the market to make big enough returns to support themselves in retirement.

But the reality is that’s not within reach for most individual people. During a market rout like Monday’s, many people will panic and sell. “We know a lot of people do what economists say is irrational, they sell at a low point,” said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center on Economic and Policy Research. Research shows that the best thing to do during a downturn is to hold out if possible. But that’s not how most people will react. “People see something like this and go, ‘I better get out,'” Baker said. “When they see the market start to go up, they say, ‘I better buy in,’ and then they’ve lost a lot.”

This is one of the big problems with privatizing Social Security: individual investors don’t tend to be that savvy in chasing higher returns. “A lot of people make wrong decisions,” Baker said. This is even true when it comes to retirement planning: Many people leave money on the table with their 401(k)s by not taking advantage of employer matches or cash out when they switch jobs and incur taxes. The point of Social Security contributions is to make saving for retirement mandatory, he pointed out. But “if you do that and then just tell people to do whatever you want [with the money], then a lot of people will make mistakes and end up with not very much in retirement.”

On a larger level, putting people’s Social Security contributions into private accounts makes them far more exposed to the irrationality of the market. “What’s beautiful about Social Security is that in the long the return workers get on contributions is linked to productivity growth and wage growth,” said Monique Morrissey, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute. “Whereas markets are notoriously volatile and often behave in ways that are not based on the fundamental strength and weakness of the economy.”

Social Security is funded by worker contributions and if the government would stop borrowing from the fund for other purposes there would be no reason to worry about Social Security running out of money. The poster is correct: If Soc. Security were privatized there would be months when beneficiaries would receive little or no benefits at all and the government would go on receiving the contributions of workers interest free -- and the workers would get little or nothing in an economic downtown.

What the heck are you smoking? 0.o

Do you even understand how IRA and 401K distributions work?

Say you have $300,000 in retirement. Let's also say that you have it in S&P 500, which averages 8%.

That's $24,000 a year.

If you take $20,000 a year, that's $1,666 a month... your retirement would continue to grow, even while you are living off the return on investment.

Now even if the market takes a dive, you still collect $1,666 a month. The amount you withdraw doesn't drop. You just use some of the principal of your retirement. When the market recovers, you gain back how much you lost of the principal.

You don't get checks that change in size, depending on the market. No one I know does that. Certainly my parents who are millionaires, don't have that.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, and how many people will fail to succeed in surviving these crashes without damage? How many will have enough or find someone trusted?

In the right wing "future", picture a 90 year old woman in a nursing home, trying to access the DOW to see if she'll get kicked out of the home when there's some dips.........Or try to tell the bastards that run the nursing home, "....wait, I was assured that the market always bounced back..."

Also picture the emergence of a bunch of shysters who will "manage" nursing home-bound people's market portfolio.

In the left-wing "future" elderly will protest in the streets and clash with police because Social Security is broke, and the country is bankrupt. Elderly will be forcibly removed from banks where they used to draw their deposited Social Security checks, and huddle around closed government hospitals and pharmacies desperate for treatment and medication. They will line up for trays of free soup on the street, in the cold. They will burn wood, causing smog throughout the cities, because they can't afford gas heating anymore. And ultimately having swallowed the lies of the left, and ended up impoverished, kill themselves....


View attachment 48820

Elderly fighting with police.

View attachment 48821

About to be removed by police, crying in front of the national bank...

View attachment 48822

Closed government hospital....

View attachment 48823

Closed government pharmacy....

View attachment 48824

Being fed trays of soup out on the street....

View attachment 48825

Clouds of smoke above Athens from people burning wood for heat.

View attachment 48826

Thousands form a shrine to an elderly pensioner who committed suicide. The suicide sparked day so riots and clashes with police.

Unlike the mythical right-wing "future", this left-wing future is here now.... in Greece.

What you see illustrated above is the future of America, if we follow your left-wing ideology like Greece did.

The sad thing about those photos is that the fools in them probably just voted in a socialist government.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

Yeah. And why do you have tax evasion on a mass scale? Because taxes are too high.

The BBC interviewed people, and people can't live on wages where 50% to 60% of their income is taxed away.

Yeah, if you increase taxes, people stop paying them. We've been warning about that forever. Greece is proof of our claim. You increase taxes, and people change how they live relative to the taxes.

For a company to pay an employee $20,000, it would cost the company $25,600, $5,600 in Pension taxes, for the employee to get $12,800 in pay after taxes. And that's the low end tax. The high end of tax 58%.

When government earns more money than you do from working... yeah people evade taxes... what a shock. We're not shocked. We've seen this a million times.

The tax and spend plan, doesn't work. At some point people refuse to pay taxes. This is why socialism always fails.

 

[Andylusion]

Even investment advisors push people out of equities as they near retirement.

True, I forgot that investment advisors are all kind-hearted, altruistic, do-gooders who would gladly forgo their percentage for the benefit and welfare of retirees.

As opposed to Obama. How much of his money has he given up for the benefit and welfare of retirees?

I trust the guy I'm paying, who makes money when I make money..... by far over Politicians who make money when they screw me over.

 

[David_42]

In the right wing "future", picture a 90 year old woman in a nursing home, trying to access the DOW to see if she'll get kicked out of the home when there's some dips.........Or try to tell the bastards that run the nursing home, "....wait, I was assured that the market always bounced back..."

Also picture the emergence of a bunch of shysters who will "manage" nursing home-bound people's market portfolio.

In the left-wing "future" elderly will protest in the streets and clash with police because Social Security is broke, and the country is bankrupt. Elderly will be forcibly removed from banks where they used to draw their deposited Social Security checks, and huddle around closed government hospitals and pharmacies desperate for treatment and medication. They will line up for trays of free soup on the street, in the cold. They will burn wood, causing smog throughout the cities, because they can't afford gas heating anymore. And ultimately having swallowed the lies of the left, and ended up impoverished, kill themselves....


View attachment 48820

Elderly fighting with police.

View attachment 48821

About to be removed by police, crying in front of the national bank...

View attachment 48822

Closed government hospital....

View attachment 48823

Closed government pharmacy....

View attachment 48824

Being fed trays of soup out on the street....

View attachment 48825

Clouds of smoke above Athens from people burning wood for heat.

View attachment 48826

Thousands form a shrine to an elderly pensioner who committed suicide. The suicide sparked day so riots and clashes with police.

Unlike the mythical right-wing "future", this left-wing future is here now.... in Greece.

What you see illustrated above is the future of America, if we follow your left-wing ideology like Greece did.

The sad thing about those photos is that the fools in them probably just voted in a socialist government.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

Yeah. And why do you have tax evasion on a mass scale? Because taxes are too high.

The BBC interviewed people, and people can't live on wages where 50% to 60% of their income is taxed away.

Yeah, if you increase taxes, people stop paying them. We've been warning about that forever. Greece is proof of our claim. You increase taxes, and people change how they live relative to the taxes.

For a company to pay an employee $20,000, it would cost the company $25,600, $5,600 in Pension taxes, for the employee to get $12,800 in pay after taxes. And that's the low end tax. The high end of tax 58%.

When government earns more money than you do from working... yeah people evade taxes... what a shock. We're not shocked. We've seen this a million times.

The tax and spend plan, doesn't work. At some point people refuse to pay taxes. This is why socialism always fails.

Explain the large number of countries with progressive taxation that are doing amazingly well. Yeah, your statement about people not paying them fails, if that were true, we would have collapsed in the 50's. Greece is not proof of your claim, we could just say the great depression is proof that capitalism fails, but that's dishonest. We need a mix of both socialistic policies and capitalism, even emerging countries know this, and the IMF has done studies showing the necessity of this. The pension system in greece was bad, but the people wanted to keep it, democracy works I guess. Using that to stereotype all socialist ideas is dishonest and hilarious. Socialism always fails? Explains why all countries on earth mix socialistic policies with capitalism.

 

[David_42]

Even investment advisors push people out of equities as they near retirement.

True, I forgot that investment advisors are all kind-hearted, altruistic, do-gooders who would gladly forgo their percentage for the benefit and welfare of retirees.

As opposed to Obama. How much of his money has he given up for the benefit and welfare of retirees?

I trust the guy I'm paying, who makes money when I make money..... by far over Politicians who make money when they screw me over.

He made sure to take care of the elderly to the best of his ability, oh the horror! You trust the guy you're paying? Social security is meant to be available to virtually everyone, it shouldn't be privatized and left to those who would willingly let people lose it all, hell, you still fail to address how those in poverty would go through all of this. Then again, you're so out of touch with reality, it doesn't matter regardless.

 

[Andylusion]

[

There is no solution to Social Security. The only solution is based on the idea that people will agree to pay more tax, without an increase in benefits. That's never going to happen. In Greece, the public routinely work black market jobs, to avoid paying their taxes.

That will be the future of America if we continue on this road.

Social Security was always a bad idea that was going to go really bad one of these days and bankrupt the country. Unfortunately we are approaching that time now with a $56 trillion dollar future entitlement program.

Why people were so weak minded as to agree to be taxed more so that the inefficient government (managed by corrupt politicians elected by special interest groups) would promise them some rinky dink pension if they lived is absolute stupidity.

We should all be responsible for our own retirement fund. If some of the idiots in this country chose to spend their money on pot and big screen TVs instead of providing for their retirement then that is their problem, not mine.

Social security is not a bad idea and some form of social security is NECESSARY. There are people who either don't or can't save for retirement. When they get to retirement age many of them can't work, can't take care of themselves, have major health issues and require expensive drugs. What do you do with these helpless people? Let them die!

The reason it is political suicide to go after social security or Medicare is because everyone gets old and the vast majority of people will rely on these programs in their old age.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How about you help them?

Instead of demanding that other people pay for them, how about YOU help them?

 

[David_42]

[

There is no solution to Social Security. The only solution is based on the idea that people will agree to pay more tax, without an increase in benefits. That's never going to happen. In Greece, the public routinely work black market jobs, to avoid paying their taxes.

That will be the future of America if we continue on this road.

Social Security was always a bad idea that was going to go really bad one of these days and bankrupt the country. Unfortunately we are approaching that time now with a $56 trillion dollar future entitlement program.

Why people were so weak minded as to agree to be taxed more so that the inefficient government (managed by corrupt politicians elected by special interest groups) would promise them some rinky dink pension if they lived is absolute stupidity.

We should all be responsible for our own retirement fund. If some of the idiots in this country chose to spend their money on pot and big screen TVs instead of providing for their retirement then that is their problem, not mine.

Social security is not a bad idea and some form of social security is NECESSARY. There are people who either don't or can't save for retirement. When they get to retirement age many of them can't work, can't take care of themselves, have major health issues and require expensive drugs. What do you do with these helpless people? Let them die!

The reason it is political suicide to go after social security or Medicare is because everyone gets old and the vast majority of people will rely on these programs in their old age.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How about you help them?

Instead of demanding that other people pay for them, how about YOU help them?

Remarkable statement. This is a society of 300+ million people, we all pay taxes to help this society function and care for each other, citizens will give to private charities and do their part by paying taxes, that is helping. Regardless, it's a stupid statement to bring up, you might as well eliminate food stamps because "WHY DONT YOU HELP THEM." I'm sorry, but a civilized society must utilize the government to provide these services, we're all in this together.

 

[boedicca]

I see we have a new member of the USMB Inane Clown Posse. One more for the Group Butt Cuddle!

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Uncensored2008]

LOL. Sure.

Assclown, you are stupid - seriously stupid,

What was the closing DOW on September 2, 2012?

If a person invested their retirement on that day, what would the "loss" be as of yesterday?

There's a reason you are a leftist and put on the assclown.....

 

[Uncensored2008]

TRANSLATION: Damn, you caught me.

No, he's WAY too stupid to grasp that he got caught.

 

[David_42]

TRANSLATION: Damn, you caught me.

No, he's WAY too stupid to grasp that he got caught.

Caught on what? Key word: "COULD"

 

[Uncensored2008]

Caught on what? Key word: "COULD"

You know, most children of your age would eventually grow up, navigate away from DailyKOS< and learn to think.

Not you though, you are doomed to remain perpetually stupid.

Wear the assclown with pride, you've more than earned it.

 

[David_42]

Caught on what? Key word: "COULD"

You know, most children of your age would eventually grow up, navigate away from DailyKOS< and learn to think.

Not you though, you are doomed to remain perpetually stupid.

Wear the assclown with pride, you've more than earned it.

Soros bite your ass?

 

[Andylusion]

In the left-wing "future" elderly will protest in the streets and clash with police because Social Security is broke, and the country is bankrupt. Elderly will be forcibly removed from banks where they used to draw their deposited Social Security checks, and huddle around closed government hospitals and pharmacies desperate for treatment and medication. They will line up for trays of free soup on the street, in the cold. They will burn wood, causing smog throughout the cities, because they can't afford gas heating anymore. And ultimately having swallowed the lies of the left, and ended up impoverished, kill themselves....


View attachment 48820

Elderly fighting with police.

View attachment 48821

About to be removed by police, crying in front of the national bank...

View attachment 48822

Closed government hospital....

View attachment 48823

Closed government pharmacy....

View attachment 48824

Being fed trays of soup out on the street....

View attachment 48825

Clouds of smoke above Athens from people burning wood for heat.

View attachment 48826

Thousands form a shrine to an elderly pensioner who committed suicide. The suicide sparked day so riots and clashes with police.

Unlike the mythical right-wing "future", this left-wing future is here now.... in Greece.

What you see illustrated above is the future of America, if we follow your left-wing ideology like Greece did.

The sad thing about those photos is that the fools in them probably just voted in a socialist government.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

Yeah. And why do you have tax evasion on a mass scale? Because taxes are too high.

The BBC interviewed people, and people can't live on wages where 50% to 60% of their income is taxed away.

Yeah, if you increase taxes, people stop paying them. We've been warning about that forever. Greece is proof of our claim. You increase taxes, and people change how they live relative to the taxes.

For a company to pay an employee $20,000, it would cost the company $25,600, $5,600 in Pension taxes, for the employee to get $12,800 in pay after taxes. And that's the low end tax. The high end of tax 58%.

When government earns more money than you do from working... yeah people evade taxes... what a shock. We're not shocked. We've seen this a million times.

The tax and spend plan, doesn't work. At some point people refuse to pay taxes. This is why socialism always fails.

Explain the large number of countries with progressive taxation that are doing amazingly well. Yeah, your statement about people not paying them fails, if that were true, we would have collapsed in the 50's. Greece is not proof of your claim, we could just say the great depression is proof that capitalism fails, but that's dishonest. We need a mix of both socialistic policies and capitalism, even emerging countries know this, and the IMF has done studies showing the necessity of this. The pension system in greece was bad, but the people wanted to keep it, democracy works I guess. Using that to stereotype all socialist ideas is dishonest and hilarious. Socialism always fails? Explains why all countries on earth mix socialistic policies with capitalism.

Capitalism is what got us out of the Great Depression.

It was government intervention, that caused the GD to begin with.

In countries with mixed socialism and capitalism, including our own, the problems are always the Socialized parts. Never the Capitalist parts. Our own country, it's the heavily socialized areas that have problems... public education, health care, and banking.

Same is true around the world.

Progressive, doesn't always mean too high. I never said "progressive taxation" anywhere. I said that socialism results in ever growing taxes, and eventually people refuse to pay those taxes, resulting in a crash.

Greece is proof of this. No one is going to pay 58% of their income in taxes. So they don't.

And the experience in the US, is proof of this. When the tax rate was high, in the 70s to 90s... the rich hid their income, and collected non-cash benefits.

Warren Buffet is a perfect example. His yearly income is only $100,000 a year. You could raise the top marginal rate to 99%, and he wouldn't pay an extra penny in taxes. You could raise the Social Security limit, and he wouldn't pay a dime more.

Yes, there are other economies that have higher tax burdens than the US. And most have much larger "shadow economies" than the US. Shadow economies, is as the name suggests, the economic activities that are underground, and untaxed. Germany 16% of the economy is under ground. Brazil, 40%. Denmark 17%. France, 15%.
The US, only 8%.

As tax rates go up overall, so does the shadow economy, for exactly the reasons I pointed out.

 

[David_42]

The sad thing about those photos is that the fools in them probably just voted in a socialist government.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

Yeah. And why do you have tax evasion on a mass scale? Because taxes are too high.

The BBC interviewed people, and people can't live on wages where 50% to 60% of their income is taxed away.

Yeah, if you increase taxes, people stop paying them. We've been warning about that forever. Greece is proof of our claim. You increase taxes, and people change how they live relative to the taxes.

For a company to pay an employee $20,000, it would cost the company $25,600, $5,600 in Pension taxes, for the employee to get $12,800 in pay after taxes. And that's the low end tax. The high end of tax 58%.

When government earns more money than you do from working... yeah people evade taxes... what a shock. We're not shocked. We've seen this a million times.

The tax and spend plan, doesn't work. At some point people refuse to pay taxes. This is why socialism always fails.

Explain the large number of countries with progressive taxation that are doing amazingly well. Yeah, your statement about people not paying them fails, if that were true, we would have collapsed in the 50's. Greece is not proof of your claim, we could just say the great depression is proof that capitalism fails, but that's dishonest. We need a mix of both socialistic policies and capitalism, even emerging countries know this, and the IMF has done studies showing the necessity of this. The pension system in greece was bad, but the people wanted to keep it, democracy works I guess. Using that to stereotype all socialist ideas is dishonest and hilarious. Socialism always fails? Explains why all countries on earth mix socialistic policies with capitalism.

Capitalism is what got us out of the Great Depression.

It was government intervention, that caused the GD to being with.

In countries with mixed socialism and capitalism, including our own, the problems are always the Socialized parts. Never the Capitalist parts. Our own country, it's the heavily socialized areas that have problems... public education, health care, and banking.

Same is true around the world.

Progressive, doesn't always mean too high. I never said "progressive taxation" anywhere. I said that socialism results in ever growing taxes, and eventually people refuse to pay those taxes, resulting in a crash.

Greece is proof of this. No one is going to pay 58% of their income in taxes. So they don't.

And the experience in the US, is proof of this. When the tax rate was high, in the 70s to 90s... the rich hid their income, and collected non-cash benefits.

Warren Buffet is a perfect example. His yearly income is only $100,000 a year. You could raise the top marginal rate to 99%, and he wouldn't pay an extra penny in taxes. You could raise the Social Security limit, and he wouldn't pay a dime more.

Yes, there are other economies that have higher tax burdens than the US. And most have much larger "shadow economies" than the US. Shadow economies, is as the name suggests, the economic activities that are underground, and untaxed. Germany 16% of the economy is under ground. Brazil, 40%. Denmark 17%. France, 15%.
The US, only 8%.

As tax rates go up overall, so does the shadow economy, for exactly the reasons I pointed out.

Government intervention caused the GD? What are you smoking? Problems are the socialized parts? Unfounded claim, considering the growing income inequality and the horrific working conditions that existed before regulation, hell, seniors were fucked before SS.. Not true around the world, buddy, and nothing is perfect. Oh dear god, quit citing Greece, it's one country out of many that struggled, capitalist countries have struggled and had problems, you're weak, and relying on stupid horse shit. I know about warren buffet, why I want a wealth tax, like trump did. Lol, where do you get your numbers for those shadow economies?

 

[Andylusion]

Even investment advisors push people out of equities as they near retirement.

True, I forgot that investment advisors are all kind-hearted, altruistic, do-gooders who would gladly forgo their percentage for the benefit and welfare of retirees.

As opposed to Obama. How much of his money has he given up for the benefit and welfare of retirees?

I trust the guy I'm paying, who makes money when I make money..... by far over Politicians who make money when they screw me over.

He made sure to take care of the elderly to the best of his ability, oh the horror! You trust the guy you're paying? Social security is meant to be available to virtually everyone, it shouldn't be privatized and left to those who would willingly let people lose it all, hell, you still fail to address how those in poverty would go through all of this. Then again, you're so out of touch with reality, it doesn't matter regardless.

Really? He gave how much of his millions to the elder?

Oh wait... you mean he taxed people like me, and gave my money to other people..... how benevolent. Screwing over people who work is "caring" in your world. Got it.

Yes, I trust the guy I'm paying. If he doesn't do well by me, then I don't pay him more. I trust that motivation, more than the guy you support who screwed me for other people's welfare.

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

They believed the lies of the leftwing government, protested every time they tried to reform the system, and when the reforms came in 2014, voted in the left wing government, which bucked the reforms..... and ruined the whole country.

These sad sad people.... are getting what they voted for. It's terrible to see people harm themselves... but what can you do.

Yeah, that's what happens when tax evasion happens on a mass scale..

Yeah. And why do you have tax evasion on a mass scale? Because taxes are too high.

The BBC interviewed people, and people can't live on wages where 50% to 60% of their income is taxed away.

Yeah, if you increase taxes, people stop paying them. We've been warning about that forever. Greece is proof of our claim. You increase taxes, and people change how they live relative to the taxes.

For a company to pay an employee $20,000, it would cost the company $25,600, $5,600 in Pension taxes, for the employee to get $12,800 in pay after taxes. And that's the low end tax. The high end of tax 58%.

When government earns more money than you do from working... yeah people evade taxes... what a shock. We're not shocked. We've seen this a million times.

The tax and spend plan, doesn't work. At some point people refuse to pay taxes. This is why socialism always fails.

Explain the large number of countries with progressive taxation that are doing amazingly well. Yeah, your statement about people not paying them fails, if that were true, we would have collapsed in the 50's. Greece is not proof of your claim, we could just say the great depression is proof that capitalism fails, but that's dishonest. We need a mix of both socialistic policies and capitalism, even emerging countries know this, and the IMF has done studies showing the necessity of this. The pension system in greece was bad, but the people wanted to keep it, democracy works I guess. Using that to stereotype all socialist ideas is dishonest and hilarious. Socialism always fails? Explains why all countries on earth mix socialistic policies with capitalism.

Capitalism is what got us out of the Great Depression.

It was government intervention, that caused the GD to being with.

In countries with mixed socialism and capitalism, including our own, the problems are always the Socialized parts. Never the Capitalist parts. Our own country, it's the heavily socialized areas that have problems... public education, health care, and banking.

Same is true around the world.

Progressive, doesn't always mean too high. I never said "progressive taxation" anywhere. I said that socialism results in ever growing taxes, and eventually people refuse to pay those taxes, resulting in a crash.

Greece is proof of this. No one is going to pay 58% of their income in taxes. So they don't.

And the experience in the US, is proof of this. When the tax rate was high, in the 70s to 90s... the rich hid their income, and collected non-cash benefits.

Warren Buffet is a perfect example. His yearly income is only $100,000 a year. You could raise the top marginal rate to 99%, and he wouldn't pay an extra penny in taxes. You could raise the Social Security limit, and he wouldn't pay a dime more.

Yes, there are other economies that have higher tax burdens than the US. And most have much larger "shadow economies" than the US. Shadow economies, is as the name suggests, the economic activities that are underground, and untaxed. Germany 16% of the economy is under ground. Brazil, 40%. Denmark 17%. France, 15%.
The US, only 8%.

As tax rates go up overall, so does the shadow economy, for exactly the reasons I pointed out.

Government intervention caused the GD? What are you smoking? Problems are the socialized parts? Unfounded claim, considering the growing income inequality and the horrific working conditions that existed before regulation, hell, seniors were fucked before SS.. Not true around the world, buddy, and nothing is perfect. Oh dear god, quit citing Greece, it's one country out of many that struggled, capitalist countries have struggled and had problems, you're weak, and relying on stupid horse shit. I know about warren buffet, why I want a wealth tax, like trump did. Lol, where do you get your numbers for those shadow economies?

Yes, government intervention caused the Great Depression. You don't know that? Have not read up the research on it?

No Seniors were not. In fact there was no demand for Social Security before it existed. Again, you don't know that? Do you know anything about the topics you talk about?

Wealth tax? Are you insane? The French tried that, and millions of wealthy packed up their jobs and companies, and left the country. California only proposed one, and thousands left the state. Venezuela had that, and over a million people left the country.

What is wrong with you people? Do you not know any of this??

The wealth tax: a tax on the 'rich' that cripples the poor

I swear, sometimes I'm shocked at how ignorant you left-wing types are. You seems to live in a bubble of your own making, unaware of the real world outside it.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Capitalism is what got us out of the Great Depression.

I don't agree.

A war economy got us out of the great depression. This is based on two factors, we removed a significant portion of the available labor pool and sent it off to fight and we increased production to meet the needs of the war effort.

Neither of these factors can be attributed to the market and are hardly Laissez Faire.

It was government intervention, that caused the GD to begin with.

Particularly the manipulation of monetary policy to benefit the well connected. Wall Street gets blamed, but the banks and money changers were the real culprits. The stock market was reactive to the credit markets.

In countries with mixed socialism and capitalism, including our own, the problems are always the Socialized parts. Never the Capitalist parts. Our own country, it's the heavily socialized areas that have problems... public education, health care, and banking.

Same is true around the world.

While I don't disagree, I caution you that the Fabians will attempt to cast law as socialism. Regulation of actions is not the distribution of the means of production. I think Sarbains Oxley is the most destructive law we have passed since 1913 - but it isn't socialist, merely stupid.

Progressive, doesn't always mean too high. I never said "progressive taxation" anywhere. I said that socialism results in ever growing taxes, and eventually people refuse to pay those taxes, resulting in a crash.

Greece is proof of this. No one is going to pay 58% of their income in taxes. So they don't.

And the experience in the US, is proof of this. When the tax rate was high, in the 70s to 90s... the rich hid their income, and collected non-cash benefits.

During the halcyon days of the leftists dream 90% tax rate, the top 1% paid a lower effective rate than they do today. High tax rates are a means of selling deductions and shelters. This is why the tax code typed out could circle the globe.

Warren Buffet is a perfect example. His yearly income is only $100,000 a year. You could raise the top marginal rate to 99%, and he wouldn't pay an extra penny in taxes. You could raise the Social Security limit, and he wouldn't pay a dime more.

Yes, there are other economies that have higher tax burdens than the US. And most have much larger "shadow economies" than the US. Shadow economies, is as the name suggests, the economic activities that are underground, and untaxed. Germany 16% of the economy is under ground. Brazil, 40%. Denmark 17%. France, 15%.
The US, only 8%.

As tax rates go up overall, so does the shadow economy, for exactly the reasons I pointed out.

Buffet is indeed a great example. He is no capitalist and depends on the corruption of government to fund his wealth. Capital gains are meant to close the gap for those who gain wealth through investment, but these tend to hurt small investors and retard economic growth.

Our founding fathers were brilliant men. They originally prohibited direct taxation. Any time there is direct taxation, favors WILL be sold to the elite. Only through indirect taxes, where the payer of the tax is anonymous is it possible for fair and honest taxation to exist. When a person buys a pack of gum, the sales tax paid will be there regardless of who the person is. Warren Buffet cannot defer his sales tax to next year so that an arranged "loss" will consume the tax. Corruption is difficult with indirect taxation - which is why democrats fight it so stringently.

If we ever want honest government - and few actually do - get rid of income and property taxes so that the ability to sell favors is removed from taxation.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Government intervention caused the GD? What are you smoking? Problems are the socialized parts? Unfounded claim, considering the growing income inequality and the horrific working conditions that existed before regulation, hell, seniors were fucked before SS.. Not true around the world, buddy, and nothing is perfect. Oh dear god, quit citing Greece, it's one country out of many that struggled, capitalist countries have struggled and had problems, you're weak, and relying on stupid horse shit. I know about warren buffet, why I want a wealth tax, like trump did. Lol, where do you get your numbers for those shadow economies?

Seriously assclown, finish high school BEFORE attempting to engage in conversations based on subjects you have zero grasp of.