If North Korea can make a Progressive Utopia, why can't we?

[Neotrotsky]

you will notice the the model of the political/social system in N. Korea is not a progressive paradise. another falicy of those that try to advertise hyperbole, and try to stick labels where they do not belong.

They are not socialist?

What socialist market reforms should they introduce to make
a Progressive Utopia?

 

[Sallow]

Are you kidding? That's ridiculous.

That sound ridiculous?

Well yeah..it is.

It sounds ridiculous because it's not true.

Oh really.

United States Forces Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. to Aid South Korea With Naval Defense Plan - NYTimes.com

Fucking reality escapes the right wing in this country.

 

[Sallow]

you will notice the the model of the political/social system in N. Korea is not a progressive paradise. another falicy of those that try to advertise hyperbole, and try to stick labels where they do not belong.

You're right, the only thing they don't have in NoKo is the NY Times

Still no answer on taxes.

Commie or not?

 

[Sallow]

you will notice the the model of the political/social system in N. Korea is not a progressive paradise. another falicy of those that try to advertise hyperbole, and try to stick labels where they do not belong.

They are not socialist?

What socialist market reforms should they introduce to make
a Progressive Utopia?

And your answer on taxes is what?

It's it commie or not?

 

[Moonglow]

Many of the core principles of the Progressive Movement focused on the need for efficiency in all areas of society. Purification to eliminate waste and corruption was a powerful element.[3] According to historian William Leuchtenburg:

“ The Progressives believed in the Hamiltonian concept of positive government, of a national government directing the destinies of the nation at home and abroad. They had little but contempt for the strict construction of the Constitution by conservative judges, who would restrict the power of the national government to act against social evils and to extend the blessings of democracy to less favored lands. The real enemy was particularism, state rights, limited government.[4]

Progressivism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Too bad the the socialists and a collection of other left extremists have co-opted the term for themselves

"...that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."




Too funny
another American Leftist telling us that North Korea
is not socialist

-they call themselves socialists
-they study and praise socialism
-they hate capitalism

Perhaps the ugly truth of socialism drawn to its furthest conclusion
it what the Left can not stand to see

I know we will get right
this time

Communism is the idea that society should not have classes - exploiters and exploited, oppressors and oppressed, and so on. "

Read more: What is the difference between socialism and communism

" Socialism is the idea that the working class, the class that produces the profits, the wealth, the cars, houses, planes, steel, should take over and run things collectively, democratically, for the benefit of the majority (who also "just happen" to be workers too).

Read more: What is the difference between socialism and communism

show me the model of N. Koreas political form of government. It is clearly not purely communistic, and it is clearly not purely socialistic.

 

[Sallow]

Sure it does
progressive regressive taxes, sales tax etc

if that is the case
then very regressive taxes would be ok

You are confusing taxes with how a government is run.
All governments must have some form of income, in order to fund important issues like their military.
No taxes are not communistic.
How the government is run is different.
We should get rid of the 16th amendment in our constitution and have the states collect Taxes to send to the Feds like we used to have. Ever since the 16th amendment, it has caused corruption in our Federal government.

You don't call this an answer Sallow?

You aren't either poster I asked.

 

[Sallow]

Odd. That doesn't address my point at all.

To reiterate: Leftists do not criticize each other. The leftists at LA-IMC recognize a kindred spirit in North Korea.

Insisting NoKo is a conservative regime is ludicrous.

And why is that?

Aside from the adoption of "Communism", nothing North Korea has done is remotely leftist.

They don't provide food or shelter for most of the population..you have to work long hard hours, almost to the point of death, to get anywhere. And even then..many people maintain private gardens to eat. And there is a black market that people buy goods from because most government stores are bare.

Where does most of this wealth end up? In the hands of a small elite group. Many of them are the "Owners" of factories and corporations. They are friends of the family that have been appointed to run these places.

Sounds like a Monarchy to me.

And throughout history, leftist regimes always end up like that.

Yeah true.

So calling it a "Progressive Utopia" is a misnomer.

To the point of the ridiculous.

Eventually true Marxism eliminates government. Which at it's core is the reason why it would never ever work.

 

[Neotrotsky]

i see neo felt like trolling today..

We understand your concern

the truth can be quite unsettling for those with
left "rose colored" glasses on on

 

[Sallow]

i see neo felt like trolling today..

Well yeah..but it sometimes yields some interesting discussion.

And other fun stuff.

 

[Neotrotsky]

And why is that?

Aside from the adoption of "Communism", nothing North Korea has done is remotely leftist.

They don't provide food or shelter for most of the population..you have to work long hard hours, almost to the point of death, to get anywhere. And even then..many people maintain private gardens to eat. And there is a black market that people buy goods from because most government stores are bare.

Where does most of this wealth end up? In the hands of a small elite group. Many of them are the "Owners" of factories and corporations. They are friends of the family that have been appointed to run these places.

Sounds like a Monarchy to me.

And throughout history, leftist regimes always end up like that.

Yeah true.

So calling it a "Progressive Utopia" is a misnomer.

To the point of the ridiculous.

Eventually true Marxism eliminates government. Which at it's core is the reason why it would never ever work.

note
I answered your question
the most regressive taxes are not commie



What socialist market reforms do they need to make it better?

 

[bripat9643]

North Korea isn't progressive at all. It's quite conservative. They don't allow voting. And government is passed down from family to family.

They don't even call themselves "progressive".

It's the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

North Korea

And thanks to America..South Korea doesn't spend much on it's military. So that leaves it money for many socialist programs..like Socialized Medicine.

the Nazis called themselves socialists, and all you progressives know that was a lie, so why should we be concerned about what they call themselves? Everyone knows the goals of American progressives are exactly the sames ones claimed by the PDRK.

 

[Moonglow]

North Korea isn't progressive at all. It's quite conservative. They don't allow voting. And government is passed down from family to family.

They don't even call themselves "progressive".

It's the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

North Korea

And thanks to America..South Korea doesn't spend much on it's military. So that leaves it money for many socialist programs..like Socialized Medicine.

the Nazis called themselves socialists, and all you progressives know that was a lie, so why should we be concerned about what they call themselves? Everyone knows the goals of American progressives are exactly the sames ones claimed by the PDRK.

Again you fail to support your statement with facts.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Sweden is doing better than we are, if you want to talk about socialism working or not working.

Really?

you do need to update your left talking points

Did you know that most of Sweden's gains have come from free market
reforms and they actually were worse off when they were more socialist
of course you don't

Did you know that due the liberalization of their markets
Today, the state's total tax take comes to 45% of GDP, DOWN from 56% ten years ago
of course you don't

Sweden Is a Role Model…but for Free Market Reforms, not Socialism

Sweden’s socialism lasted only for a couple of decades, roughly during the 1970s and 1980s. And as it happens, these decades mark the only break in the modern Swedish success story. …The Swedish tax burden was lower than the European average throughout these successful 60 years, and lower even than in the U.S. Only in 1950 did Sweden’s tax burden rise to 20% of GDP, though that remained comparatively low. …The 1970s were a decade of radical government intervention in society and in markets, during which Sweden doubled its overall tax burden, socialized a slew of industries, re-regulated its markets, expanded its public systems, and shuttered its borders. In 1970, Sweden had the world’s fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point. …By the late 1980s, though, Sweden had started de-regulating its markets once again, decreased its marginal tax rates, and opted for a sound-money, low-inflation policy. In the early 1990s, the pace quickened, and most markets except for labor and housing were liberalized. ​

Their biggest gains have come from free market reforms
funny how that works


Did you know
Sweden is actually slightly more free market than the United States on non-fiscal measures in the Economic Freedom of the World index.

Then you shouldn't object to us modeling the U.S. more towards Swedish socialism.

 

[Sallow]

And throughout history, leftist regimes always end up like that.

Yeah true.

So calling it a "Progressive Utopia" is a misnomer.

To the point of the ridiculous.

Eventually true Marxism eliminates government. Which at it's core is the reason why it would never ever work.

note
I answered your question
the most regressive taxes are not commie



What socialist market reforms do they need to make it better?

Taxation..chief.

Is taxation commie?

Simple enough.

 

[bripat9643]

the Nazis called themselves socialists, and all you progressives know that was a lie, so why should we be concerned about what they call themselves? Everyone knows the goals of American progressives are exactly the sames ones claimed by the PDRK.

Again you fail to support your statement with facts.

Read the platform of the American communist Party.

 

[Neotrotsky]

" Socialism is the idea that the working class, the class that produces the profits, the wealth, the cars, houses, planes, steel, should take over and run things collectively, democratically, for the benefit of the majority (who also "just happen" to be workers too).

Read more: What is the difference between socialism and communism

show me the model of N. Koreas political form of government. It is clearly not purely communistic, and it is clearly not purely socialistic.

Socialism, communism, fascism, crony capitalism are all forms of some level of CPE's
and share little with a true free market system.
North Korea depend on and thrive on a large and intrusive gov't or "big gov't", not small.

Indeed
Peter Drucker

"the complete collapse of the belief in the attainability of freedom and equality through Marxism has forced Russia to travel the same road
toward a totalitarian society of un-freedom and inequality which Germany has been following. Not that communism and fascism are essentially the same.
Fascism is the stage reached after communism has proved an illusion, and it has proved as much an illusion in Russia as in pre-Hitler Germany."​

The issue is one of statism

Hayek defined Fascism :

"It is simply collectivism freed from all traces of an individualist tradition which might hamper its realization"​

which is one of the potential problems with CPEs and the onset of statism

Too often many call for ends with no appreciation
of the means to get there

 

[Neotrotsky]

Yeah true.

So calling it a "Progressive Utopia" is a misnomer.

To the point of the ridiculous.

Eventually true Marxism eliminates government. Which at it's core is the reason why it would never ever work.

note
I answered your question
the most regressive taxes are not commie



What socialist market reforms do they need to make it better?

Taxation..chief.

Is taxation commie?

Simple enough.

You said it did not matter

So I choose

If you want to build a system of totally regressive taxes
I have no issue with that nor do I think it would be "commie"

I answered your question
you just don't like the answer
-----

so again

What socialist market reforms does North Korea need to make it better?

 

[Neotrotsky]

Sweden is doing better than we are, if you want to talk about socialism working or not working.

Really?

you do need to update your left talking points

Did you know that most of Sweden's gains have come from free market
reforms and they actually were worse off when they were more socialist
of course you don't

Did you know that due the liberalization of their markets
Today, the state's total tax take comes to 45% of GDP, DOWN from 56% ten years ago
of course you don't

Sweden Is a Role Model…but for Free Market Reforms, not Socialism

Sweden’s socialism lasted only for a couple of decades, roughly during the 1970s and 1980s. And as it happens, these decades mark the only break in the modern Swedish success story. …The Swedish tax burden was lower than the European average throughout these successful 60 years, and lower even than in the U.S. Only in 1950 did Sweden’s tax burden rise to 20% of GDP, though that remained comparatively low. …The 1970s were a decade of radical government intervention in society and in markets, during which Sweden doubled its overall tax burden, socialized a slew of industries, re-regulated its markets, expanded its public systems, and shuttered its borders. In 1970, Sweden had the world’s fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point. …By the late 1980s, though, Sweden had started de-regulating its markets once again, decreased its marginal tax rates, and opted for a sound-money, low-inflation policy. In the early 1990s, the pace quickened, and most markets except for labor and housing were liberalized. ​

Their biggest gains have come from free market reforms
funny how that works


Did you know
Sweden is actually slightly more free market than the United States on non-fiscal measures in the Economic Freedom of the World index.

Then you shouldn't object to us modeling the U.S. more towards Swedish socialism.

towards socialism? since we are less "free" then them
we should be moving ourselves towards free market reforms
and away from socialism, like they are doing

you have no problem with that ?

 

[Unkotare]

[

Conservatives are for status quo, homogeneous populations, fealty to governments like theocracies, aristocracies, dictatorships or monarchies. They are for tradition and like a strong hand ruling them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshkO8HqQ10]Consuela says "No" for about 30 seconds - YouTube[/ame]

 

[CrusaderFrank]

you will notice the the model of the political/social system in N. Korea is not a progressive paradise. another falicy of those that try to advertise hyperbole, and try to stick labels where they do not belong.

You're right, the only thing they don't have in NoKo is the NY Times

Still no answer on taxes.

Commie or not?

Progressive income tax is Communist/Progressive