If my doctor says $1 of every $4 is spent on "defensive medicine"..

[Inthemiddle]

I am simply trying to make totally ignorant evidently people like you UNDERSTAND that pure millionaire lawyers have created a very large portion of health care costs.

Prove it.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I wonder if it is satisfying to know that, at the end of each day, one must rest with the knowledge that they have done everything within their power to prevent human beings from having access to affordable, quality health care?

I get the pro life crowd.....and the small government crowd......but the anti health care crowd is just beyond comprehension.

Who the heck is "anti health care"?
Are you just making stuff up?

You won't be satisfied with any answer given.....so why ask the question in the first place?

 

[Inthemiddle]

I wonder if it is satisfying to know that, at the end of each day, one must rest with the knowledge that they have done everything within their power to prevent human beings from having access to affordable, quality health care?

I get the pro life crowd.....and the small government crowd......but the anti health care crowd is just beyond comprehension.

Who the heck is "anti health care"?
Are you just making stuff up?

You won't be satisfied with any answer given.....so why ask the question in the first place?

I guess that's your way of saying that you got nothing and don't want to have to face the music.

 

[alan1]

I wonder if it is satisfying to know that, at the end of each day, one must rest with the knowledge that they have done everything within their power to prevent human beings from having access to affordable, quality health care?

I get the pro life crowd.....and the small government crowd......but the anti health care crowd is just beyond comprehension.

Who the heck is "anti health care"?
Are you just making stuff up?

You won't be satisfied with any answer given.....so why ask the question in the first place?

I asked the question to demonstrate that you are just making stuff up.

See how easy it was for me to answer your question about my post. It's easy for me because I'm not just making stuff up and pretending that is is real. It makes my life easy to be honest.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Who the heck is "anti health care"?
Are you just making stuff up?

You won't be satisfied with any answer given.....so why ask the question in the first place?

I guess that's your way of saying that you got nothing and don't want to have to face the music.

No asshole.....that's my way of acknowledging that none of you nutters who would have poor people, or any other uninsured people go without good health care will ADMIT IT.

One thing you nutters should stop doing is convincing yourselves that when a person chooses not to answer a stupid question, it means that they have no answers to reasonable questions. It does not work. It is a bullshit tactic that uninformed people use.

 

[Inthemiddle]

No asshole.....that's my way of acknowledging that none of you nutters who would have poor people, or any other uninsured people go without good health care will ADMIT IT.

Actually, you're the wing nut here. I love this place sometimes. Conservative wing-nuts complain about how I'm such a liberal, liberal wing-nuts complain that I'm such a conservative. Just because I called you out on the fact that your arguments are lacking, you automatically assume a million different things about me. You haven't a clue.

One thing you nutters

Okay, that's enough. If you really think I'm some kind of right wing "nutter" then you're so extreme in your own positions that I'd have to put you along side bin Laden and the like. Say it again, and you're blocked.

 

[alan1]

You won't be satisfied with any answer given.....so why ask the question in the first place?

I guess that's your way of saying that you got nothing and don't want to have to face the music.

No asshole.....that's my way of acknowledging that none of you nutters who would have poor people, or any other uninsured people go without good health care will ADMIT IT.

One thing you nutters should stop doing is convincing yourselves that when a person chooses not to answer a stupid question, it means that they have no answers to reasonable questions. It does not work. It is a bullshit tactic that uninformed people use.

The bullshit tactic was used by you when you claimed that there is some part of the population that is "anti health care".
I merely asked you to tell us who they were, since you claimed they exist. Obviously you can't answer that question because you just made it up.

 

[Londoner]

American health care is a mess because the unregulated profit motive has lead to terrible incentives.

The only way for drug companies to maintain staggering profits is to expand their market to the non-sick. This is where preventative procedures become a pot of gold.

But they also raise profits by increasing the range of treatable disorders. The most obvious evidence of this is in mood and behavioral disorders where America pushes more Ritalin & Prozac than any other nation by an embarrassing margin, despite terrible long term outcomes. Indeed, don't take my word for it: compare mental illness statistics between the US and any other country and you will see how the profit motive artificially moves the line between normal/abnormal or sick/healthy. But it's not just mood disorders. Drug companies love it when they score a no-bid Medicare contract without having to give volume discounts. We pump our seniors full of expensive drugs (for diseases that many countries don't even acknowledge). Comically, despite speeding twice as much, our outcomes are worse than most advanced industrial nations. They only real difference between us and France is that we treat expensive mythical disorders with a gazillion drugs and procedures. REMEMBER: The point of any for profit health care regimen is to maximize the amount paid into the system by each individual. This is done partly by selling high margin drugs & procedures. Insurance companies get nice cut of every high margin procedure they build into their plan.

My dentist tries to up-sell me every time I go in. He's not afraid of getting sued. His job is to sell product and make my bill higher. But he can't admit that, so he says he's afraid of getting sued. My brother in law is a Pediatrician. You should hear what he says at Thanksgiving after a few beers. Parents are especially vulnerable to fears over little Johnny - they will purchase every preventative diagnostic test/treatment/drug/procedure under the sun.

And please don't tell me that health care providers have to provide a good product, otherwise the consumer will vote with his feet. Homo Economicus is the biggest myth in the world. Consumers are not rational - they're not informed enough to make rational decisions. Their information systems have been captured by the very people trying to sell them stuff. Besides, choice theory has nothing to do with it. Madison Avenue has no need of the brain's lengthier circuits. The point of branding is to make people need your product at the level of reflex. The last thing you want someone to do is pause and say "can I really afford this plasma TV". God no. You don't want consumers to see Nike sneaks as mere bits of pedestrian nylon assembled in Asian sweatshops. You want the consumer to think he's participating in the "Just Do it" lifestyle. Same thing with Mountain Dew. You don't want the consumer to rationally analyze that he is buying mere sugar water. No. You want the consumer to identify with a mountain biker sailing off a cliff into some epic lifestyle of pure adventure. Capitalists don't want rational choice anywhere near their markets. They want brand-addicted consumers who will spend more than they have buying stuff they don't need.

Look at household debt starting in the 70s. In order to keep the consumption economy alive, Americans now spend more than they make by an alarming factor. If they were rational, the last 3 decades of debt-based consumption would not have happened. The rational consumer not only left the building, he was never in the building. People don't vote with their feet, they go bankrupt with the credit card. And the minute they wake up and start rationally deciding to forego impulse buying, the economy dies. American capitalism was levitating on pure debt, on mindless consumption. . . while China's state controlled capitalism has allocated resources far better, and has far more people with rising living standards. They are leaving our free market system in the dust. (but that's another story. God forbid we wake up one day and realize we lost the real Cold War to communist China)

 

[auditor0007]

American health care is a mess because the unregulated profit motive has lead to terrible incentives.

The only way for drug companies to maintain staggering profits is to expand their market to the non-sick. This is where preventative procedures become a pot of gold.

But they also raise profits by increasing the range of treatable disorders. The most obvious evidence of this is in mood and behavioral disorders where America pushes more Ritalin & Prozac than any other nation by an embarrassing margin, despite terrible long term outcomes. Indeed, don't take my word for it: compare mental illness statistics between the US and any other country and you will see how the profit motive artificially moves the line between normal/abnormal or sick/healthy. But it's not just mood disorders. Drug companies love it when they score a no-bid Medicare contract without having to give volume discounts. We pump our seniors full of expensive drugs (for diseases that many countries don't even acknowledge). Comically, despite speeding twice as much, our outcomes are worse than most advanced industrial nations. They only real difference between us and France is that we treat expensive mythical disorders with a gazillion drugs and procedures. REMEMBER: The point of any for profit health care regimen is to maximize the amount paid into the system by each individual. This is done partly by selling high margin drugs & procedures. Insurance companies get nice cut of every high margin procedure they build into their plan.

My dentist tries to up-sell me every time I go in. He's not afraid of getting sued. His job is to sell product and make my bill higher. But he can't admit that, so he says he's afraid of getting sued. My brother in law is a Pediatrician. You should hear what he says at Thanksgiving after a few beers. Parents are especially vulnerable to fears over little Johnny - they will purchase every preventative diagnostic test/treatment/drug/procedure under the sun.

And please don't tell me that health care providers have to provide a good product, otherwise the consumer will vote with his feet. Homo Economicus is the biggest myth in the world. Consumers are not rational - they're not informed enough to make rational decisions. Their information systems have been captured by the very people trying to sell them stuff. Besides, choice theory has nothing to do with it. Madison Avenue has no need of the brain's lengthier circuits. The point of branding is to make people need your product at the level of reflex. The last thing you want someone to do is pause and say "can I really afford this plasma TV". God no. You don't want consumers to see Nike sneaks as mere bits of pedestrian nylon assembled in Asian sweatshops. You want the consumer to think he's participating in the "Just Do it" lifestyle. Same thing with Mountain Dew. You don't want the consumer to rationally analyze that he is buying mere sugar water. No. You want the consumer to identify with a mountain biker sailing off a cliff into some epic lifestyle of pure adventure. Capitalists don't want rational choice anywhere near their markets. They want brand-addicted consumers who will spend more than they have buying stuff they don't need.

Look at household debt starting in the 70s. In order to keep the consumption economy alive, Americans now spend more than they make by an alarming factor. If they were rational, the last 3 decades of debt-based consumption would not have happened. The rational consumer not only left the building, he was never in the building. People don't vote with their feet, they go bankrupt with the credit card. And the minute they wake up and start rationally deciding to forego impulse buying, the economy dies. American capitalism was levitating on pure debt, on mindless consumption. . . while China's state controlled capitalism has allocated resources far better, and has far more people with rising living standards. They are leaving our free market system in the dust. (but that's another story. God forbid we wake up one day and realize we lost the real Cold War to communist China)

The biggest problem with drug companies is the fact that Americans subsidize the rest of the world when it comes to pharmaceuticals. Almost every country has some form of cap as to how much these companies can charge for their drugs, except for the US. So guess who gets raped by the drug companies? There are ways to deal with this, but as of yet, we continue to subsidize everyone else.

As Americans, we aren't very bright. We allow ourselves to subsidize the rest of the world when it comes to drugs. Then we play policeman and police the entire world free of charge to everyone. Yes, we ain't too bright. We just keep giving the house away and then complain that it's because taxes are too high or too low or some other stupid shit. Other countries laugh at us because they think we are stupid, but they don't even realize why we are stupid. They just accept our free handouts and think nothing of it. We need to wake up.

 

[editec]

If my doctor says $1 of every $4 is spent on "defensive medicine"..

then it must be true?

 

[Greenbeard]

Politico has a relevant article today about a point mentioned above.

In a bid to win support for health reform from skeptical doctors back in 2009, President Barack Obama pledged action on an item near the top of their wish list — malpractice reform.

And he delivered an initial step: $25 million to test alternatives to the medical liability system. That won praise from the American Medical Association, among others. But since then, tort reform on the federal level has been put on ice, a victim of both tight money and bitter politics.

Malpractice provisions in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act were limited in the first place — $50 million for expanded state demonstration projects. And Congress didn’t fund it. Nor did the administration get the $250 million it requested for fiscal year 2012 for the Department of Justice to explore alternative approaches. [...]

Congressional Republicans oppose the demonstration projects in hopes of positioning their tort reform law as a core piece — and a well-defined piece, after so much congressional debate — of their “repeal and replace” strategy for the ACA, staffers say.

The idea there being that new approaches need to be tested and rolled out on statewide scales:

Among the alternatives being developed in several states or communities include the “disclose and offer” or “disclose and apologize” model. First introduced by the Veterans Administration and adopted by other health systems, including the University of Michigan, it encourages health providers to acknowledge and apologize for medical errors and offer patients compensation. If the patient rejects the offer and opts to sue, any previous admission would be inadmissible in court. Proponents say this model encourages providers to identify mistakes openly — and work on ways to prevent errors or harm from happening to another patient.

Health courts, based on previous specialized courts, would provide administrative compensation as ordered by trained judges and medical experts, rather than the usual trial by a lay jury. These have not been tested yet.

The safe harbors model would protect providers from liability if they follow established best practice guidelines, although in many cases, those guidelines have not yet been specified or widely agreed on.

“There are a lot of ideas that need to be tested as a first step,” said Michelle Mello, a professor of public health at Harvard and a malpractice reform advocate who has applied for funding through AHRQ.

 

[Steelplate]

I would kind of have to believe him!

I mean he and 90% of other physicians must have some basis for this survey:

According to a 2010 survey of physicians by Gallup for Alpharetta-based Jackson Healthcare, one of every four dollars spent in health care goes to defensive medicine.
Nine out of 10 U.S. physicians (92 percent) reported practicing defensive medicine, according to a new online survey released today by Jackson Healthcare, a healthcare management company.
Defensive medicine refers to tests, hospitalizations, prescriptions and surgical procedures physicians consider medically unnecessary, but order in an attempt to avoid lawsuits.
According to Gallup’s study, physicians estimate that one in four dollars (26 percent) spent on health care in America pays for unnecessary tests and treatments.
“The consequences of this waste affect all of us,” said Jackson. “Costs go up and quality and access go down when our physicians are under the constant personal threat of litigation.”
“Our online survey found that they feel trapped between the Hippocratic Oath and their personal desire to stay out of court and in business.”

Doctors Practice Medicine in Fear, New Study Finds

and why would emergency room physicians lie???

1) More than half (53 percent) of emergency physicians reported that fear of lawsuits is the main reason for ordering the number of tests they do.

Emergency Visits Are Increasing, New Poll Finds; Many Patients Referred by Primary Care Doctors

So when Obamacare defenders and defenders of those poor defenseless millionaire ambulance chasers say $600 billion a year is not accurate???

Either they are "experts"??? "Delusional" or just plain ignorant and definitely hypocritically because they stupidly blame those evil insurance companies trying to make a PROFIT off a business that sends 80% or more of revenue on CLAIM payments! It doesn't make any sense to blame the company that processes the payments when the cause is simple fear of lawsuits being filed by millionaire lawyers!

Yet you same people critical of health insurance companies totally ignore reality.. i.e. $600 billion a year in defensive medicine is a fact!

did you ever think that the doctors are simply trying to minimize their involvement as to why health care is so expensive? It's not my fault....It's because of malpractice.

 

[healthmyths]

I would kind of have to believe him!

I mean he and 90% of other physicians must have some basis for this survey:

According to a 2010 survey of physicians by Gallup for Alpharetta-based Jackson Healthcare, one of every four dollars spent in health care goes to defensive medicine.
Nine out of 10 U.S. physicians (92 percent) reported practicing defensive medicine, according to a new online survey released today by Jackson Healthcare, a healthcare management company.
Defensive medicine refers to tests, hospitalizations, prescriptions and surgical procedures physicians consider medically unnecessary, but order in an attempt to avoid lawsuits.
According to Gallup’s study, physicians estimate that one in four dollars (26 percent) spent on health care in America pays for unnecessary tests and treatments.
“The consequences of this waste affect all of us,” said Jackson. “Costs go up and quality and access go down when our physicians are under the constant personal threat of litigation.”
“Our online survey found that they feel trapped between the Hippocratic Oath and their personal desire to stay out of court and in business.”

Doctors Practice Medicine in Fear, New Study Finds

and why would emergency room physicians lie???

1) More than half (53 percent) of emergency physicians reported that fear of lawsuits is the main reason for ordering the number of tests they do.

Emergency Visits Are Increasing, New Poll Finds; Many Patients Referred by Primary Care Doctors

So when Obamacare defenders and defenders of those poor defenseless millionaire ambulance chasers say $600 billion a year is not accurate???

Either they are "experts"??? "Delusional" or just plain ignorant and definitely hypocritically because they stupidly blame those evil insurance companies trying to make a PROFIT off a business that sends 80% or more of revenue on CLAIM payments! It doesn't make any sense to blame the company that processes the payments when the cause is simple fear of lawsuits being filed by millionaire lawyers!

Yet you same people critical of health insurance companies totally ignore reality.. i.e. $600 billion a year in defensive medicine is a fact!

did you ever think that the doctors are simply trying to minimize their involvement as to why health care is so expensive? It's not my fault....It's because of malpractice.

DUH!!!!
THAT's the WHOLE reason for $600 billion costs in "defensive medicine practices"...
Did you read what the doctors said?
Emergency room physicians fearful of lawsuits will run extra tests, and many will hospitalize the patients..simple out of fear they will be sued if something happens!

See I guess you still adhere to the old cliche that "doctors aren't human".. "doctors don't make mistakes" and maybe you don't question your doctor!
But today with the internet more informed patients CAN question.. BUT you know the # 1 reason they don't ?
THEY DON"T CARE if it costs cause "my insurance will pay mentality"!!!

 

[ba1614]

What is President Obama's position on tort reform?

He favors state-level reform, with federal support as necessary.

Obama Starts Drive for Medical Malpractice Reforms

How is it "State Level Reform" when it's being written by the Obama Justice Dept.?
From your link:
Health Courts? Run by whom?

Topping the list of ideas in an Obama administration summary of the proposal are health courts. Specially trained judges — not juries — would decide malpractice cases, awarding compensation from a set schedule. Plaintiffs' lawyers say that would undermine the constitutional right to trial by jury. But proponents say it would bring predictability, resulting in lower malpractice insurance rates for doctors.

Yeah, it would bring corruption too as the I'll bet the judges would be Presidential or Political appointments. Oh Lawd!
Plus this article claims "defensive medicine" is less costly than advertised:

The cost of defensive medicine is difficult to estimate, but conservative estimates start at around $50 billion a year. Obama's debt commission estimated its recommendations could save government programs $17 billion through 2020, calling for an aggressive effort to rewrite malpractice laws. Obama's budget, however, DOES NOT CLAIM ANY savings from the new proposal.

So let's re-write the laws and set up Health Courts so the we can save uh, no money?

Oh just wait until they write and pass the bill, you'll love it, promise.

 

[editec]

FWIW annual check-ups, cancer screening ect, are examples of DEFENSIVE MEDICINE.

Money well spent.

 

[healthmyths]

FWIW annual check-ups, cancer screening ect, are examples of DEFENSIVE MEDICINE.

Money well spent.

NO that's NOT TRUE!
It's an example of PREVENTIVE Medicine.. big big difference!

Defensive medicine is where a patient sees a doctor with some type of problem that the doctor KNOWS historically for example is NOT a big deal!
An ingrown toe nail that is infected!
BUT knowing the patient's mental state of hypochondria the doctor prevents further issues by referring to a podiatrist!
Something the doctor could treat BUT refers to a specialist.. why?
Because if something goes wrong (which most likely won't!!) he can be sued!

I.e. "Defensive Medical practice"!

I'm not saying this ... 90% of the doctors are!

"Defensive Medicine"
A doctor who practices medicine, either through diagnosis or treatment, not to help the patient, but rather to prevent legal action if a problem occurs, is said to be practicing defensive medicine.

Doctors who practice in high-risk specialties are most apt to practice defensive medicine. In 2005, one survey showed as many as 93% were ordering tests, prescribing drugs, or performing procedures in more of an effort to protect themselves than the patients those measures were taken for.
Defensive Medicine - What Is Defensive Medicine