If minimum wage were raised ...

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Amelia, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. OnePercenter
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    OnePercenter Gold Member

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    They are all hourly employees.
     
  2. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    And that pointless remark was supposed to????

    Your original (incorrect) supposition was that the government treated all jobs the same. I show you that is blatantly false and you state that they are all hourly jobs as if that has anything to do with the point at all.

    Further, even that statement is false as construction workers are not always hourly. Many such positions pay piecework.
     
  3. BillyZane
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    BillyZane BANNED

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    Your argument would be better suited to one of saying that the government has forgotten its primary purpose, and I'd agree with you in that. This federal government certainly has forgotten its primary goal and we could spend an entire week listing programs and laws which support that argument; however that does not mean that the primary goal of government no longer exists, it simply means THIS government has forgotten its place - an by this government let's be clear that Obama is merely the latest , and perhaps most egregious , leader to do so.
     
  4. oldfart
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    oldfart Older than dirt

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    Let me try to clarify my argument. All governments have a tendency to abuse of individual rights, just as all economic systems have a tendency to concentration of power. These situations are not abnormalities, they are the essence of how humans behave in such institutions. This is why the Founders passed a Bill of Rights and established a Constitution with checks and balances. They also wrote passionately that even these safeguards were not enough without a citizenry that cared deeply about these values and was vigilant to cut short any abuses.

    My argument is that a parallel argument applies to concentrations of economic power and corporate governance, and especially to the interaction of political/regulatory power and economic power. The natural tendencies of these systems must have a counterweight of perpetual vigilance against abuse. Absent that counterweight, we will have neither security, freedom, nor prosperity as a nation.
     
  5. Spoonman
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    Spoonman Gold Member

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  6. beagle9
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    beagle9 Gold Member

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    Man you take that which is spoken above, and apply it to some other threads here, and it would drive certain people crazy...LOL
     
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  7. oldfart
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    oldfart Older than dirt

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    I learned long ago that there is no way to draft a legal document such as a trust agreement that protects the trustor when that person has no one whose judgment he or she trusts to act in his/her stead. Similarly no law or constitution can avoid bad results if the people administering it exercise bad judgment. We waste a lot of time drying to draft solutions to stupidity in both law and legislation. It can help, but it's not a real solution.
     
  8. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    The only counterweight that will ever be of maximum effectiveness is the character and values of the culture. We once considered a hand shake on a deal as a sacred trust. Those days are long gone and the USA now has more lawyers per capita than anywhere else in the world. Now the motive is mostly to get as much as everybody else gets which is what drives this whole minimum wage nonsense. The culture no longer holds the value that to earn what we have is a virtue. Too many want somebody to bypass the earning part and go straight to the reward as some sort of unalienable right for just being born.
     
  9. protectionist
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    protectionist Gold Member

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    Business owners CANNOT just let people go from their staffs to lower their costs. The reason a company has the number of workers they do is because that is the number at which they make the most money. If they lay off workers, their sales get reduced, and they LOSE money.
     
  10. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    They also lose money if those workers are paid more than their labor earns for the business. The reason wages are what they are is because that is what the employer is willing to pay to get the labor he/she needs. Artificially increase those wages, and many employers will just shift the work to others or do it themselves or do without.

    The best medicine to get wages up is full employment. That makes the workers wages a sellers market and employers will invariably pay more to get the best of the much more limited work force available to hire. But, you have everybody working who wants to work and that puts a lot more money into the economy so some increases in prices are not painful and don't cost the employer customers as they do when money is tight.

    A raise in the minimum wage is far more likely to discourage full employment and, most especially in recession, it will discourage a lot of hiring while it is likely to raise the standard of living for only a very few.
     
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