“If God does not exist, then all things are permitted.”

[ChrisL]

I wouldn't say you aren't a Christian. That isn't for me to say. I will say that everyone I know, who is a religious type person, does indeed believe in Hell, and I think you are in the minority here. I know that the Catholics certainly believe in a Hell.

As you are probably aware, Roman Catholicism is the OLDEST known organized Christian religious denomination.

Oh I am in the extreme minority, but that is because Christian Churches today use English versions of the Bible where the traditions of the Church in the Middle Ages have been preserved instead of the actual words and concepts used in the Greek and Hebrew languages and the culture of the Jews and early Christians at the time they wrote their books. As I mentioned earlier, there is a cycle in the evolution of the Bible where an issue is not covered by scripture so a tradition is created to solve that problem. That tradition becomes set in the culture and hundreds of years later it gets written down in new scripture. So the Christian concept of hell has been around for 1,800 - 1,900 years or so and it was just pounded into society by the Church in the Middle Ages. It has become so ingrained in Christian thought that it is very hard to get rid of, even though it is tradition and not actual scripture.

Well, regardless of all of that, the whole concept is just too far fetched for me. Like another poster stated, I started questioning these things VERY early in my life. The same as I questioned Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

I did too, but then something changed.
We all have different life experiences, it's nice that they can be shared, hopefully without too much dissension.

Yes, well sometimes a person may experience a traumatic experience and NEED something like that to cling to. I can completely understand that. I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone. That is the reason why I almost feel "guilty" sometimes when I reveal how I really feel about religious beliefs. I understand that some people really do NEED it in their lives. Not all of us do though.

Nothing traumatic happened in my life. I actually 1st went to church to "use" them in helping me with my kids... they were not in trouble, but, I felt that it might be good for them to learn about morals, being good etc. Dunno, but not crisis. I certainly didn't go for myself - in fact, I had to give up a lot of stuff and lot of crisis situations happened AFTER I gave my life to Christ. So, it was really the opposite. But everyone is different.

But you told me that things happened to you that changed your mind.

 

[BluePhantom]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....hold on a sec. The authors of the Bible were FAR from ignorant and uneducated. Paul, just as an example, was HIGHLY educated and his arguments are absolutely ingenious in their structure, depth, and content. He wrote in excellent Greek using proper rhetoric for the manner of writing he was engaged in. Now we may or may not disagree with his philosophy or his conclusions, but make no mistake. These guys were not idiots by any means.

They were angry. Paul comes across in his letters as a very angry, egotistical, sarcastic prick. The prophets of the Old Testament were raging. People today read scripture and we have a tendency to read them with a reverent tone of voice because the language sounds old. In reality these guys were pissed as parakeets. Imagine a modern demonstration on the streets with a bunch of people marching and a guy with a bullhorn screaming about injustice and raising hell. Ok THAT is what Paul and the prophets were. They were radicals and they created a shit storm with their writings, but their arguments were very complex, extraordinarily deep in most cases, and they frequently used Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle as a basis for their arguments. The author of Hebrews used Plato's Allegory of the Cave, as a singular example, in a fantastically brilliant fashion in order to make, what I at least believe to be, a very misunderstood point.

You can correctly accuse the authors of the Bible of being a lot of things....stupid and uneducated aint among them.

We will definitely have to disagree on THAT one. I think OBVIOUSLY they were quite ignorant. That's not an insult. Most people back in those days were ignorant of how the world worked. I mean, things were certainly not comparable to today.

Well ignorant in what way? If you are talking about being ignorant of science I would generally agree. We certainly understand a lot more about the universe today than they did, we are more scientifically and technologically advanced, but that is not what the Bible is addressing. A lot of the Bible deals with moral lessons about life. Was Socrates ignorant? Was Plato? Aristotle? Hardly. Same concept.

Like I said, ignorant of the world around them and how it worked. Everything back then was attributed to "gods." Lol. SOME (few) were intelligent for their time and perhaps had an inkling of how and why things really occurred, but they were few and far between, and the church would shut them up ASAP.

Well to a large degree it depends on which Biblical author you are talking about too. Keeping in mind that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years, those earliest books are going to be far more....oh...."primitive" perhaps. I am not sure that is the right word, but things are going to be a lot more mythical in nature. Take for example Genesis which has a LOT of ancient Jewish myths that were borrowed from other cultures. Later we get Exodus which is more legendary than mythological. Then a few centuries later we get Numbers and Leviticus and those are legal books. Deuteronomy wasn't added until after the Babylonian exile ended (although it existed before it wasn't added to Torah until then). So from the origins of Genesis in oral tradition to the addition of Deuteronomy, depending on who you ask and how you define it, you are talking anywhere from 1,000 - 2,000 years. Well science, technology, and critical thinking develop quite a bit in that amount of time. The rest of the Bible, by comparison, was written rather quickly...over roughly 500-600 years, and the New Testament was written quite fast over a period of....oh 80 years or so. So it's not surprising to see a very large range of understanding about the environment around them. The mistake, I think, is failing to recognize the vast amount of time that passed between the authorship of Genesis (which is really mythological and to us seems like a bunch of fairy tales) and the later books and assuming that the later authors were just as "ignorant", as you put it, as the very first ones.

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

 

[ChrisL]

We will definitely have to disagree on THAT one. I think OBVIOUSLY they were quite ignorant. That's not an insult. Most people back in those days were ignorant of how the world worked. I mean, things were certainly not comparable to today.

Well ignorant in what way? If you are talking about being ignorant of science I would generally agree. We certainly understand a lot more about the universe today than they did, we are more scientifically and technologically advanced, but that is not what the Bible is addressing. A lot of the Bible deals with moral lessons about life. Was Socrates ignorant? Was Plato? Aristotle? Hardly. Same concept.

Like I said, ignorant of the world around them and how it worked. Everything back then was attributed to "gods." Lol. SOME (few) were intelligent for their time and perhaps had an inkling of how and why things really occurred, but they were few and far between, and the church would shut them up ASAP.

Well to a large degree it depends on which Biblical author you are talking about too. Keeping in mind that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years, those earliest books are going to be far more....oh...."primitive" perhaps. I am not sure that is the right word, but things are going to be a lot more mythical in nature. Take for example Genesis which has a LOT of ancient Jewish myths that were borrowed from other cultures. Later we get Exodus which is more legendary than mythological. Then a few centuries later we get Numbers and Leviticus and those are legal books. Deuteronomy wasn't added until after the Babylonian exile ended (although it existed before it wasn't added to Torah until then). So from the origins of Genesis in oral tradition to the addition of Deuteronomy, depending on who you ask and how you define it, you are talking anywhere from 1,000 - 2,000 years. Well science, technology, and critical thinking develop quite a bit in that amount of time. The rest of the Bible, by comparison, was written rather quickly...over roughly 500-600 years, and the New Testament was written quite fast over a period of....oh 80 years or so. So it's not surprising to see a very large range of understanding about the environment around them. The mistake, I think, is failing to recognize the vast amount of time that passed between the authorship of Genesis (which is really mythological and to us seems like a bunch of fairy tales) and the later books and assuming that the later authors were just as "ignorant", as you put it, as the very first ones.

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

No offense, I find most of it (if not all of it) pretty hard to swallow, TBH.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well ignorant in what way? If you are talking about being ignorant of science I would generally agree. We certainly understand a lot more about the universe today than they did, we are more scientifically and technologically advanced, but that is not what the Bible is addressing. A lot of the Bible deals with moral lessons about life. Was Socrates ignorant? Was Plato? Aristotle? Hardly. Same concept.

Like I said, ignorant of the world around them and how it worked. Everything back then was attributed to "gods." Lol. SOME (few) were intelligent for their time and perhaps had an inkling of how and why things really occurred, but they were few and far between, and the church would shut them up ASAP.

Well to a large degree it depends on which Biblical author you are talking about too. Keeping in mind that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years, those earliest books are going to be far more....oh...."primitive" perhaps. I am not sure that is the right word, but things are going to be a lot more mythical in nature. Take for example Genesis which has a LOT of ancient Jewish myths that were borrowed from other cultures. Later we get Exodus which is more legendary than mythological. Then a few centuries later we get Numbers and Leviticus and those are legal books. Deuteronomy wasn't added until after the Babylonian exile ended (although it existed before it wasn't added to Torah until then). So from the origins of Genesis in oral tradition to the addition of Deuteronomy, depending on who you ask and how you define it, you are talking anywhere from 1,000 - 2,000 years. Well science, technology, and critical thinking develop quite a bit in that amount of time. The rest of the Bible, by comparison, was written rather quickly...over roughly 500-600 years, and the New Testament was written quite fast over a period of....oh 80 years or so. So it's not surprising to see a very large range of understanding about the environment around them. The mistake, I think, is failing to recognize the vast amount of time that passed between the authorship of Genesis (which is really mythological and to us seems like a bunch of fairy tales) and the later books and assuming that the later authors were just as "ignorant", as you put it, as the very first ones.

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

No offense, I find most of it (if not all of it) pretty hard to swallow, TBH.

Well I think the more literally you try to take it, the more difficult it is to believe. I don't read the Bible as a historical document. I am looking for moral lessons and wisdom that I can apply in my life in a meaningful way. We have been discussing hell and my position that hell doesn't exist is pretty well documented by this time. However, that doesn't mean that stories that were later translated as having to do with the concept of hell do not have insight or application. I just don't think I am going to burn for eternity if I happen to disagree with or act in a contrary manner.

Oh and I am not offended at all.

 

[ChrisL]

Like I said, ignorant of the world around them and how it worked. Everything back then was attributed to "gods." Lol. SOME (few) were intelligent for their time and perhaps had an inkling of how and why things really occurred, but they were few and far between, and the church would shut them up ASAP.

Well to a large degree it depends on which Biblical author you are talking about too. Keeping in mind that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years, those earliest books are going to be far more....oh...."primitive" perhaps. I am not sure that is the right word, but things are going to be a lot more mythical in nature. Take for example Genesis which has a LOT of ancient Jewish myths that were borrowed from other cultures. Later we get Exodus which is more legendary than mythological. Then a few centuries later we get Numbers and Leviticus and those are legal books. Deuteronomy wasn't added until after the Babylonian exile ended (although it existed before it wasn't added to Torah until then). So from the origins of Genesis in oral tradition to the addition of Deuteronomy, depending on who you ask and how you define it, you are talking anywhere from 1,000 - 2,000 years. Well science, technology, and critical thinking develop quite a bit in that amount of time. The rest of the Bible, by comparison, was written rather quickly...over roughly 500-600 years, and the New Testament was written quite fast over a period of....oh 80 years or so. So it's not surprising to see a very large range of understanding about the environment around them. The mistake, I think, is failing to recognize the vast amount of time that passed between the authorship of Genesis (which is really mythological and to us seems like a bunch of fairy tales) and the later books and assuming that the later authors were just as "ignorant", as you put it, as the very first ones.

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

No offense, I find most of it (if not all of it) pretty hard to swallow, TBH.

Well I think the more literally you try to take it, the more difficult it is to believe. I don't read the Bible as a historical document. I am looking for moral lessons and wisdom that I can apply in my life in a meaningful way. We have been discussing hell and my position that hell doesn't exist is pretty well documented by this time. However, that doesn't mean that stories that were later translated as having to do with the concept of hell do not have insight or application. I just don't think I am going to burn for eternity if I happen to disagree with or act in a contrary manner.

Oh and I am not offended at all.

I know sometimes I tend to use a lot of sarcasm in my posts. Some people tend to take that the wrong way. It's really my thought process though. Lol.

Anyway, like we discussed earlier, although YOU might not believe in the concept of a Hell, there are plenty of others who are in the majority that do and they aren't afraid to say so either.

 

[Esmeralda]

Assuming there is no morality without the fear of God is ridiculous

I don't see atheists running wild in the streets

This^^

 

[Esmeralda]

Atheists do things because it is the right thing to do
The religious do it out of a fear of a vengeful God

Actually, Christian's do the right (Christ-like) thing because they LOVE God, not out of fear.

BS

 

[BluePhantom]

Well to a large degree it depends on which Biblical author you are talking about too. Keeping in mind that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years, those earliest books are going to be far more....oh...."primitive" perhaps. I am not sure that is the right word, but things are going to be a lot more mythical in nature. Take for example Genesis which has a LOT of ancient Jewish myths that were borrowed from other cultures. Later we get Exodus which is more legendary than mythological. Then a few centuries later we get Numbers and Leviticus and those are legal books. Deuteronomy wasn't added until after the Babylonian exile ended (although it existed before it wasn't added to Torah until then). So from the origins of Genesis in oral tradition to the addition of Deuteronomy, depending on who you ask and how you define it, you are talking anywhere from 1,000 - 2,000 years. Well science, technology, and critical thinking develop quite a bit in that amount of time. The rest of the Bible, by comparison, was written rather quickly...over roughly 500-600 years, and the New Testament was written quite fast over a period of....oh 80 years or so. So it's not surprising to see a very large range of understanding about the environment around them. The mistake, I think, is failing to recognize the vast amount of time that passed between the authorship of Genesis (which is really mythological and to us seems like a bunch of fairy tales) and the later books and assuming that the later authors were just as "ignorant", as you put it, as the very first ones.

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

No offense, I find most of it (if not all of it) pretty hard to swallow, TBH.

Well I think the more literally you try to take it, the more difficult it is to believe. I don't read the Bible as a historical document. I am looking for moral lessons and wisdom that I can apply in my life in a meaningful way. We have been discussing hell and my position that hell doesn't exist is pretty well documented by this time. However, that doesn't mean that stories that were later translated as having to do with the concept of hell do not have insight or application. I just don't think I am going to burn for eternity if I happen to disagree with or act in a contrary manner.

Oh and I am not offended at all.

I know sometimes I tend to use a lot of sarcasm in my posts. Some people tend to take that the wrong way. It's really my thought process though. Lol.

Anyway, like we discussed earlier, although YOU might not believe in the concept of a Hell, there are plenty of others who are in the majority that do and they aren't afraid to say so either.

I actually tend to assume sarcasm and playfullness from other posters. My problem is not taking someone seriously when they were kidding it is the opposite. I find myself frequently saying "what? you were actually being serious? And you are admitting to that?"

As I said before I am far from a traditional Christian. Sometimes the majority is wrong, especially after 1,500 years of conditioning. Heck don't take my word for it. Go research it for yourself. There are four words in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic translated into "Hell" in English Bibles. They are Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, and Tartarus. Research each one of them. You will find that none of them describe a place where humans experience eternal punishment and torture for disobedience.

Don't believe me. Look it up for yourself.

 

[BluePhantom]

Atheists do things because it is the right thing to do
The religious do it out of a fear of a vengeful God

Actually, Christian's do the right (Christ-like) thing because they LOVE God, not out of fear.

BS

Esmerelda, I just want to take a moment and thank you for your insightful contributions and thought provoking dialogue. Your input in post #326 of...and I quote...."This^^"....was captivating. It inspired all of us to greater levels of understanding and spiritual development. If that wasn't enough, your follow up in post #327 of...again I quote....ahem..... "BS" is worthy of Pulitzer recognition. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that through your depth and articulate nature we have all found a closer path to God.


Let's all give her a hand shall we?

 

[ChrisL]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

Some would debate that if there was no God we'd make one up.
Many actually believe that IS the case presently.

Why? You have any proof that it isn't?

I don't doubt it. Not for a second! Lol. Same as the Greeks with their mythology, etc. To me, there is really not much difference between any of these beliefs.

 

[ChrisL]

Lol. Look, you can believe in your Bible if you want. I do not.

Well then don't. I believe in certain parts of it. I don't believe all of it. I very rarely take it literally. I don't believe there was a Garden of Eden, I don't believe that God created the world in seven days, I don't believe that Jonah was in the belly of a big fish.

No offense, I find most of it (if not all of it) pretty hard to swallow, TBH.

Well I think the more literally you try to take it, the more difficult it is to believe. I don't read the Bible as a historical document. I am looking for moral lessons and wisdom that I can apply in my life in a meaningful way. We have been discussing hell and my position that hell doesn't exist is pretty well documented by this time. However, that doesn't mean that stories that were later translated as having to do with the concept of hell do not have insight or application. I just don't think I am going to burn for eternity if I happen to disagree with or act in a contrary manner.

Oh and I am not offended at all.

I know sometimes I tend to use a lot of sarcasm in my posts. Some people tend to take that the wrong way. It's really my thought process though. Lol.

Anyway, like we discussed earlier, although YOU might not believe in the concept of a Hell, there are plenty of others who are in the majority that do and they aren't afraid to say so either.

I actually tend to assume sarcasm and playfullness from other posters. My problem is not taking someone seriously when they were kidding it is the opposite. I find myself frequently saying "what? you were actually being serious? And you are admitting to that?"

As I said before I am far from a traditional Christian. Sometimes the majority is wrong, especially after 1,500 years of conditioning. Heck don't take my word for it. Go research it for yourself. There are four words in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic translated into "Hell" in English Bibles. They are Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, and Tartarus. Research each one of them. You will find that none of them describe a place where humans experience eternal punishment and torture for disobedience.

Don't believe me. Look it up for yourself.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[danielpalos]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

 

[Bonzi]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

Wow Daniel, that was almost straight forward! Not all women are like that, you know that, right?

 

[ChrisL]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

Wow Daniel, that was almost straight forward! Not all women are like that, you know that, right?

You must be humoring him. No one can make sense of that crazy jibberish, unless you speak crazy!

 

[Bonzi]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

Wow Daniel, that was almost straight forward! Not all women are like that, you know that, right?

You must be humoring him. No one can make sense of that crazy jibberish, unless you speak crazy!

It was slightly less obscure than his other posts... he actually said the word "laid" in this one....

 

[ChrisL]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

Wow Daniel, that was almost straight forward! Not all women are like that, you know that, right?

You must be humoring him. No one can make sense of that crazy jibberish, unless you speak crazy!

It was slightly less obscure than his other posts... he actually said the word "laid" in this one....

Can anyone actually be that crazy and not realize it, or do you think he's trolling?

 

[Taz]

God must not exists because even Jesus got laid.

 

[sealybobo]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

So if God does not exist you loose your conscience?

We have laws. Rape or murder go to jail.

In Islam God told them to chop off a thief's hand. Do you believe God told mo that? Then why do you believe your fairytale.

Thinking that we'd fall apart without God is a joke. I think we would excel without the notion.

As an athiest, why don't I stab someone in the neck today? Do you think I wouldn't feel bad if I stole an old ladies money? There are consequences to your actions. Just no hell or invisible 24 7 big bro.

 

[Bonzi]

if god does not exist then it means women will give mostly nice guys a difficult time, while not getting him laid in the most true witness bearing of manners and fashions, not Only for fun and practice but also to ensure he always clamors for a relationship when women want him to.

Wow Daniel, that was almost straight forward! Not all women are like that, you know that, right?

You must be humoring him. No one can make sense of that crazy jibberish, unless you speak crazy!

It was slightly less obscure than his other posts... he actually said the word "laid" in this one....

Can anyone actually be that crazy and not realize it, or do you think he's trolling?

If trolling means just saying a bunch of outrageous stuff for attention, yes, I think he's trolling

 

[Bonzi]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

So if God does not exist you loose your conscience?

We have laws. Rape or murder go to jail.

In Islam God told them to chop off a thief's hand. Do you believe God told mo that? Then why do you believe your fairytale.

Thinking that we'd fall apart without God is a joke. I think we would excel without the notion.

As an athiest, why don't I stab someone in the neck today? Do you think I wouldn't feel bad if I stole an old ladies money? There are consequences to your actions. Just no hell or invisible 24 7 big bro.

Some would argue that inner conscience we have is God.