If God did not exist

pacer

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2013
2,463
504
98
Pope Francis responded to editorials written in July and August by Eugenio Scalfari, an agnostic and the paper's founder, in which he was asked whether the Christian God forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.

"Scalfari said he had not expected the Pope to answer "so extensively and so affectionately, with such fraternal spirit."

Pope Francisco writes to La Repubblica:
"An open dialogue with non-believers"


Dear Dott. Scalfari,

I would cordially like to reply to the letter you addressed to me from the pages of "La Repubblica" on July 7th, which included a series of personal reflections that then continued to enrich the pages of the daily newspaper on August 7th.

First of all, thank you for the attention with which you have read the Encyclical "Lumen fidei". In fact it was the intention of my beloved predecessor, Benedict XVI, who conceived it and mostly wrote it, and which, with gratitude, I have inherited, to not only confirm the faith in Jesus Christ, for those who already believe, but also to spark a sincere and rigorous dialogue with those who, like you, define themselves as "for many years being a non-believer who is interested and fascinated by the preaching of Jesus of Nazareth".

Therefore, without a doubt it would seem to be positive, not only for each one of us, but also for the society in which we live, to stop and speak about a matter as important as faith and which refers to the teachings and the figure of Jesus.

More at link below.
* * *

In your editorial of July 7th, you also asked me how to understand the originality of Christian Faith as it is actually based on the incarnation of the Son of God, with respect to other religions that instead pivot on the absolute transcendency of God.

I would say that the originality lies in the fact that faith allows us to participate, in Jesus, in the relationship that He has with God who is Abbà and, because of this, in the relationship that He has with all other men, including enemies, in the sign of love. In other words, the children of Jesus, as Christian faith presents us, are not revealed to mark an insuperabile separation between Jesus and all the others: but to tell us that, in Him, we are all called to be the children of the only Father and brothers with each other. The uniqueness of Jesus is for communication not for exclusion.

Of course a consequence of this is also - and this is not a minor thing - that distinction between the religious spere which is confirmed by "Give to God what belongs to God and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar", distinctly confirmed by Jesus and upon which, the history of the Western world was built. In fact, the Church is called to sow the yeast and salt of the Gospel, and that is the love and mercy of God which reaches all men, indicating the definitive destination of our destiny in the hereafter, while civil and political society has the difficult duty of expressing and embodying a life that is evermore human in justice, in solidarity, in law and in peace. For those who experience the Christian faith, this does not mean escaping from the world or looking for any kind of supremacy, but being at the service of mankind, of all mankind and all men, starting from the periphery of history and keeping the sense of hope alive, striving for goodness in spite of everything and always looking beyond.

At the end of your first article, you also ask me what to say to our Jewish brothers about the promise God made to them: Has this been forgotten? And this - believe me - is a question that radically involves us as Christians because, with the help of God, starting from the Second Vatican Council, we have discovered that the Jewish people are still, for us, the holy root from which Jesus originated. I too, in the friendship I have cultivated in all of these long years with our Jewish brothers, in Argentina, many times while praying have asked God, especially when I remember the terrible experience of the Shoah. What I can say, with the Apostle Paul, is that God has never stopped believing in the alliance made with Israel and that, through the terribile trials of these past centuries, the Jews have kept their faith in God. And for this, we will never be grateful enough to them, as the Church, but also as humanity at large. Persevering in their faith in God and in the alliance, they remind everyone, even us as Christians that we are always awaiting, the return of the Lord and that therefore we must remain open to Him and never take refuge in what we have already achieved.

As for the three questions you asked me... (more at link below)

With brotherly love,

Francesco

(Translated from Italian by Sara Cecere)

(11 SETTEMBRE 2013)

Pope Francisco writes to La Repubblica: "An open dialogue with non-believers" - Repubblica.it
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Here is what Pope Francis had to say in a letter to Eugenio Scalfari (agnostic and founder of La Republicca) in response to three questions he posed in recent editiorials.

The letter is so beautifully written, it is worth reading whether one is a believer or non-believer, just for the linguistic style of the letter.

Extract from Pope Francis letter:

As for the three questions you asked me in the article of August 7th. It would seem to me that in the first two, what you are most interested in is understanding the Church's attitude towards those who do not share faith in Jesus. First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.

Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision.

Second of all, you ask if the thought, according to which no absolute exists and therefore there is no absolute truth, but only a series of relative and subjective truths is a mistake or a sin.

To start, I would not speak about, not even for those who believe, an "absolute" truth, in the sense that absolute is something detached, something lacking any relationship. Now, the truth is a relationship! This is so true that each of us sees the truth and expresses it, starting from oneself: from one's history and culture, from the situation in which one lives, etc. This does not mean that the truth is variable and subjective. It means that it is given to us only as a way and a life. Was it not Jesus himself who said: "I am the way, the truth, the life"? In other words, the truth is one with love, it requires humbleness and the willingness to be sought, listened to and expressed. Therefore we must understand the terms well and perhaps, in order to avoid the oversemplification of absolute contraposition, reformulate the question. I think that today this is absolutely necessary in order to have a serene and constructive dialogue which I hoped for from the beginning.

In the last question you ask if, with the disappearance of man on earth, the thoughts able to think about God will also disappear.

Of course, the greatness of mankind lies in being able to think about God. That is in being able to experience a conscious and responsible relationship with Him. But the relationship lies between two realities. God - this is my thought and this is my experience, but how many, yesterday and today, share it! - is not an idea, even if very sublime, the result of the thoughts of mankind. God is a reality with a capital "R". Jesus reveals this to us - and he experiences the relationship with Him - as a Father of infinite goodness and mercy. God therefore does not depend on our thoughts. On the other hand, even when the end of life for man on earth should come - and for Christian faith, in any case the world as we know it now is destined to end, man will not finish existing and, in a way that we do not know, nor will the universe created with him. The Scriptures speak of "new skies and a new land" and confirm that, in the end, at the time and place that it is beyond our knowledge, but which we patiently and desirously await, God will be "everything in everyone".
 
Last edited:
Seems like the first question was a yes/no.

Why would any omniscient/omnipresent being make understanding his words so difficult, contradictory and ambiguous?
 
Seems like the first question was a yes/no.

Why would any omniscient/omnipresent being make understanding his words so difficult, contradictory and ambiguous?

God abolished the priesthood and they re-established it. They break the rules when it suits them because they want a job and for people to follow them and give them money.

Ephesians 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Peter is speaking about us and not the Papacy:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_priesthood_(doctrine)

The papacy are just squatters.
 
Seems like the first question was a yes/no.

Why would any omniscient/omnipresent being make understanding his words so difficult, contradictory and ambiguous?
You have to realize the letter was translated from Italian but you are right…the answer to the first question does not seem to address the subject of forgiveness. I interpret it to mean God is all merciful and therefore as long as one follows ones own good conscience, whether one is a believer or non-believer, it is not necessary to believe in God. To listen and to follow your own conscience means you have to have a conscience (haha) and understand the difference between good and evil.
 
Last edited:
Pope Francis responded to editorials written in July and August by Eugenio Scalfari, an agnostic and the paper's founder, in which he was asked whether the Christian God forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.

"Scalfari said he had not expected the Pope to answer "so extensively and so affectionately, with such fraternal spirit."

Pope Francisco writes to La Repubblica:
"An open dialogue with non-believers"


Dear Dott. Scalfari,

I would cordially like to reply to the letter you addressed to me from the pages of "La Repubblica" on July 7th, which included a series of personal reflections that then continued to enrich the pages of the daily newspaper on August 7th.

First of all, thank you for the attention with which you have read the Encyclical "Lumen fidei". In fact it was the intention of my beloved predecessor, Benedict XVI, who conceived it and mostly wrote it, and which, with gratitude, I have inherited, to not only confirm the faith in Jesus Christ, for those who already believe, but also to spark a sincere and rigorous dialogue with those who, like you, define themselves as "for many years being a non-believer who is interested and fascinated by the preaching of Jesus of Nazareth".

Therefore, without a doubt it would seem to be positive, not only for each one of us, but also for the society in which we live, to stop and speak about a matter as important as faith and which refers to the teachings and the figure of Jesus.

More at link below.

* * *

In your editorial of July 7th, you also asked me how to understand the originality of Christian Faith as it is actually based on the incarnation of the Son of God, with respect to other religions that instead pivot on the absolute transcendency of God.

I would say that the originality lies in the fact that faith allows us to participate, in Jesus, in the relationship that He has with God who is Abbà and, because of this, in the relationship that He has with all other men, including enemies, in the sign of love. In other words, the children of Jesus, as Christian faith presents us, are not revealed to mark an insuperabile separation between Jesus and all the others: but to tell us that, in Him, we are all called to be the children of the only Father and brothers with each other. The uniqueness of Jesus is for communication not for exclusion.

Of course a consequence of this is also - and this is not a minor thing - that distinction between the religious spere which is confirmed by "Give to God what belongs to God and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar", distinctly confirmed by Jesus and upon which, the history of the Western world was built. In fact, the Church is called to sow the yeast and salt of the Gospel, and that is the love and mercy of God which reaches all men, indicating the definitive destination of our destiny in the hereafter, while civil and political society has the difficult duty of expressing and embodying a life that is evermore human in justice, in solidarity, in law and in peace. For those who experience the Christian faith, this does not mean escaping from the world or looking for any kind of supremacy, but being at the service of mankind, of all mankind and all men, starting from the periphery of history and keeping the sense of hope alive, striving for goodness in spite of everything and always looking beyond.

(more at link below)

With brotherly love,

Francesco

(Translated from Italian by Sara Cecere)

(11 SETTEMBRE 2013)

Pope Francisco writes to La Repubblica: "An open dialogue with non-believers" - Repubblica.it

No Christian has ever been given "faith" by our Creator to know Him like His saints do. We saints and prophets are the only ones who were given faith by our Creator because we're God's invisible servant "Christ' in our created existence.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is a bit of a red herring for an atheist (such as myself) to even ask a question such as whether or not 'god' forgives those who do not believe. Why? Because we don't believe. And since we don't believe, it matters not whether some mythical deity forgives. It cannot forgive or not forgive because it doesn't exist. What matters is that people seek forgiveness from the people in their lives, because they are what is important, not some mythical magical sky daddy.
 
Last edited:
It is a bit of a red herring for an atheist (such as myself) to even ask a question such as whether or not 'god' forgives those who do not believe. Why? Because we don't believe. And since we don't believe, it matters not whether some mythical deity forgives. It cannot forgive or not forgive because it doesn't exist. What matters is that people seek forgiveness from the people in their lives, because they are what is important, not some mythical magical sky daddy.
mythical magical sky daddy...hahaha I like that. Steppenwolf's Magic Carpet Ride popped into my head. Gonna have to play it.
 
Even better, it people treated one another with courtesy and respect, they wouldn't need to seek forgiveness. Sorry if I seem to be quoting Miss Manners.
 
I agree. It is not necessary to have the fear of a god instilled into one's psyche in order to live a moralistic, respectable lifestyle.
 
Seems like the first question was a yes/no.

Why would any omniscient/omnipresent being make understanding his words so difficult, contradictory and ambiguous?

I was unaware that the Pope was omniscient/omnipresent
 
An atheist was walking through the woods, admiring all that the "accidents" that evolution had created.

"What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. Turning to look, he saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw the grizzly was closing.

Somehow, he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again and the bear was even closer.

His heart was pounding and he tried to run faster. He tripped and fell to the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but the bear was right over him, reaching for him with its left paw and raising its right paw strike him.

At that instant the atheist cried, "Oh my God...!"

Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. Even the river stopped moving.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others that I don't exist and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help
you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical to ask to be religious after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear religious?"

"Very well" said the voice.

The light went out. The river ran. The sounds of the forest resumed.

..and then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together and bowed its head and spoke: "Lord, for this food which I am about to receive, I am truly thankful..."
 
God prefers atheists to Christians

He finds Christians to be pompous boors.......just like everyone else
 

Forum List

Back
Top