If Germany and Japan had some strategy like the Allies did

[ginscpy]

The cohesian between the 2 was practically non-existent.

Believe there was some sort of small joint effort by the Germans and Japanese off the South American coast.

Maybe Hitler didn't consider the Japanese Aryans.

They would have lost anyway even if they had been more united.

 

[namvet]

Hitler's plan was to let the Japs and wops help conquer the world then exterminate them

 

[regent]

Japan's strategy was to take such a toll on America that a negotiated peace would occur and Japan would end up with much of the the former colonies of Britain and France. She would then have her natural resources.

 

[ginscpy]

Japan's strategy was to take such a toll on America that a negotiated peace would occur and Japan would end up with much of the the former colonies of Britain and France. She would then have her natural resources.

That was Japans own strategy.

Just like Germany had their own strategy.

But they never meshed their strategies together.

In fact - Germany didnt even learn about Pearl Harbor until after the fact.

And Japan never did declare war on the Soviet Union even after Hitler invaded them.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Communist spies in the USA and Japan set the 2 counties on a collision course. The USA and Japan had no real strategic reason to fight other than the Soviets needed to have it happen. Japan beat the shit out of the Russians the last time they crossed swords.

In December 1941, the Soviets were losing so badly the Wehrmacht had the spires of the Kremlin in their field glasses. The last thing Uncle Joe needed was for Japan to declare war on their natural enemy, the USSR

I give the Soviet spies in Japan and in the FDR Administration full absolute credit for a brilliant operation.

 

[Unkotare]

The USA and Japan had no real strategic reason to fight .

Of course they did.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

Japan beat the shit out of the Russians the last time they crossed swords.

.

The Japanese and the Russians had two minor military engagements along the Manchurian border in the late 30's. Each time the Russkies handed the Japanese their behinds back to them after cleanly separating them from the rest of their bodies. The Japanese, as a consequence, primarily focused on the wealth and oil resources of the Indies at the time and remained so for the rest of the war.
The question that arises is that if the Russians were able to handle the Japanese so easily in Manchuria, how did the Japanese push the Brits and the Americans aside so handily in the early going?
Perhaps it had to a lot to do with Western military planning?
Churchill made the statement after the fall of Singapore that to have thought of "Singapore with no defenses at its back door was as unthinkable as a battleship with no bottom."

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Japan beat the shit out of the Russians the last time they crossed swords.

.

The Japanese and the Russians had two minor military engagements along the Manchurian border in the late 30's. Each time the Russkies handed the Japanese their behinds back to them after cleanly separating them from the rest of their bodies. The Japanese, as a consequence, primarily focused on the wealth and oil resources of the Indies at the time and remained so for the rest of the war.
The question that arises is that if the Russians were able to handle the Japanese so easily in Manchuria, how did the Japanese push the Brits and the Americans aside so handily in the early going?
Perhaps it had to a lot to do with Western military planning?
Churchill made the statement after the fall of Singapore that to have thought of "Singapore with no defenses at its back door was as unthinkable as a battleship with no bottom."

I was thinking more about the Russo- Japan War and not the engagements in the 30's

The USSR was in dire straights in December 1941 so the Japanese attack on the US and not the USSR came as a welcome relief to "Uncle Joe"

Again, you have to credit USSR spies for do a phenomenal geo-political job is puttign the US and Japan on a collision course

 

[Unkotare]

Again, you have to credit USSR spies for do a phenomenal geo-political job is puttign the US and Japan on a collision course

That was bound to happen anyway.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

In this day of GPS and observational satellites, its hard to comprehend how and why so little communication took place between the Fascist Allies. They were separated geographically by some significant obstacles, first and foremost, while they had the upper hand and things were going well individually for them, and when things finally went South, the Western Democracies had more or less total control of the oceans.
Japanese Foreign Minister Shigomitzu's Secretary, standing on the Surrender Deck of the Missouri the day of the signing, remarked, after noting the size of the ship and the sheer number of men gathered around the ceremony, that he wondered "How Japan could have ever possibly conceived of conquering an enemy of this magnitude?"
Japan started the war with between 6 to 12 carriers. America had 3 to 4. 48 American carriers sailed into the waters around Okinawa the days before April 1st, 1945.

 

[rightwinger]

Not much they could coordinate on. The fronts were so far apart. I also doubt Hitler considered the Japanese to be worthy of coordinating strategy. As it was, Japan opened a second front and drew resources from the allies

I doubt if it would have made much difference

 

[Saigon]

Not much they could coordinate on. The fronts were so far apart. e

You don't think a Japanese attack on Validvostok a week after the German invasion of USSR might have turned the war forever?

Further Japanese action against Australia could have meant Australia and NZ would have pulled troops out of Europe to defend their own countries.

I agree with the OP - the Axis powers blew the war.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

Up until the point Hitler attacked the USSR, the Communists here at home were staunchly resisting Roosevelt's efforts to assist Great Britain in the war. Suppose Hitler had instead concentrated on finishing the Brits off, one day during the Battle of Britain the Brits were down to just six Spitfires, stayed away from attacking the Soviet Union and allowed the American Communists to continue retstraining Roosevelt's efforts.
Japan would still have attacked Pearl Harbor and Roosevelt could have responded exactly how he did with no change in the historical record until the Marines landed on Tarawa. After the stuggle to take Guadalcanal, the debacle, the losses, on Tarawa would have been too much for the people to take, especially with the Communists continually agitating for withdrawal and surrender in the background. They would have forced Roosevelt's hand to instead sue for peace. Unfortunately for Hitler, after June 22, 1941, every Communist in America wanted Roosevelt to declare war against Germany.
Some inner idea or concept, I hate to use the word 'force', drove Hitler to behave impetuously and hastily in planning his next moves. There are numerous records of his telling associates and acquaintances he had to move quickly for he knew his time on Earth was sharply limited. That was part of the reason behind his attacking the USSR and the leaving the Brits dazed, bleeding, on the ropes, ready to collapse, but still unbeaten.

 

[rightwinger]

Up until the point Hitler attacked the USSR, the Communists here at home were staunchly resisting Roosevelt's efforts to assist Great Britain in the war. Suppose Hitler had instead concentrated on finishing the Brits off, one day during the Battle of Britain the Brits were down to just six Spitfires, stayed away from attacking the Soviet Union and allowed the American Communists to continue retstraining Roosevelt's efforts.
Japan would still have attacked Pearl Harbor and Roosevelt could have responded exactly how he did with no change in the historical record until the Marines landed on Tarawa. After the stuggle to take Guadalcanal, the debacle, the losses, on Tarawa would have been too much for the people to take, especially with the Communists continually agitating for withdrawal and surrender in the background. They would have forced Roosevelt's hand to instead sue for peace. Unfortunately for Hitler, after June 22, 1941, every Communist in America wanted Roosevelt to declare war against Germany.
Some inner idea or concept, I hate to use the word 'force', drove Hitler to behave impetuously and hastily in planning his next moves. There are numerous records of his telling associates and acquaintances he had to move quickly for he knew his time on Earth was sharply limited. That was part of the reason behind his attacking the USSR and the leaving the Brits dazed, bleeding, on the ropes, ready to collapse, but still unbeaten.

It would have been a different world if Hitler had not decided to attack the USSR

 

[ItsjustmeIthink]

Communist spies in the USA and Japan set the 2 counties on a collision course. The USA and Japan had no real strategic reason to fight other than the Soviets needed to have it happen. Japan beat the shit out of the Russians the last time they crossed swords.

In December 1941, the Soviets were losing so badly the Wehrmacht had the spires of the Kremlin in their field glasses. The last thing Uncle Joe needed was for Japan to declare war on their natural enemy, the USSR

I give the Soviet spies in Japan and in the FDR Administration full absolute credit for a brilliant operation.

No, the Amerians thoroughly pissed the Japanese off with arrogance long before WW2.
We sailed right up to Tokyo bay, got told to leave, then told them to fuck off (we're Americans, afterall) and things slowly got worse from there.

Or was it the Emperor we told to "fuck off", I've forgotten honestly.

 

[Unkotare]

It's a bit of a stretch to say Perry caused WWII.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not much they could coordinate on. The fronts were so far apart. e

You don't think a Japanese attack on Validvostok a week after the German invasion of USSR might have turned the war forever?

Further Japanese action against Australia could have meant Australia and NZ would have pulled troops out of Europe to defend their own countries.

I agree with the OP - the Axis powers blew the war.

What? The Japanese invade Darwin in the later winter of 1941-1942, then get the crap kicked out of them before June 1942, and undermine their entire, and smart, attempt to extend their air power down the Solomons Islands and cutting off the US-Australia sea lanes?

 

[whitehall]

Most people shy away from the concept of racism because we were taught that it's wrong. Fair enough but emotion doesn't overcome history. Institutional racism was rampant in the European And American culture for decades before WW2. The US had little in the way of what we call an intelligence network before WW2. It might seem strange but the US relied on stupid ignorant racist opinions regarding the Japanese military. Credible influential people in the US government really thought the Japanese had a genetic eye and balance problem and were poor at math skills. The prevailing thought was that the Japanese were incapable of building a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. The belief was in place right up to that Sunday morning in early December 1941. The bottom line is that FDR wanted a limited engagement with the Japanese in order to get into the real war with Germany.

 

[Saigon]

Most people shy away from the concept of racism because we were taught that it's wrong. Fair enough but emotion doesn't overcome history. Institutional racism was rampant in the European And American culture for decades before WW2. The US had little in the way of what we call an intelligence network before WW2. It might seem strange but the US relied on stupid ignorant racist opinions regarding the Japanese military. Credible influential people in the US government really thought the Japanese had a genetic eye and balance problem and were poor at math skills. The prevailing thought was that the Japanese were incapable of building a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. The belief was in place right up to that Sunday morning in early December 1941. The bottom line is that FDR wanted a limited engagement with the Japanese in order to get into the real war with Germany.

Very good points.

Anyone who has read any of Churchill's journalism from Africa knows the man was incredibly racist (by todays standards) and no doubt thought any Turk, Arab or Russian would simply run away from the sight of a noble English warrior.

 

[rightwinger]

Most people shy away from the concept of racism because we were taught that it's wrong. Fair enough but emotion doesn't overcome history. Institutional racism was rampant in the European And American culture for decades before WW2. The US had little in the way of what we call an intelligence network before WW2. It might seem strange but the US relied on stupid ignorant racist opinions regarding the Japanese military. Credible influential people in the US government really thought the Japanese had a genetic eye and balance problem and were poor at math skills. The prevailing thought was that the Japanese were incapable of building a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. The belief was in place right up to that Sunday morning in early December 1941. The bottom line is that FDR wanted a limited engagement with the Japanese in order to get into the real war with Germany.

We also held the belief that one American was worth ten Japanese in a fight. While casualty numbers were close to that, it was not because of the value of the individual soldier but the overwhelming superiority of American weaponry and logistics capability