If Democrats ignore health-care polls, midterms will be costly

[MaggieMae]

A government takeover of our entire healthcare industry is NOT what Democrats ran on. Obama campaigned for allowing Americans access to the same policies Congress has. It was Hillary who ran on compulsory coverage, not Obama.

These people have missed their supposed "mandate". Obama promised to "change the way Washington does business", to clean up the corruption and the partisanship. Instead, he's given us MORE of everything we already hated about Washington politics.

OK Murph

I'm calling you on it. Show me where the Bill is a "Government Takeover"

See the link above for all the new bureacracies which affect nearly every aspect of healthcare. In addition, if Obama's "price control" measures are worked into the reconciliation bill... the federal government will be dictating to private insurers, who must be covered, what services will be offered, and what the policies will cost. Isn't it just quicker to make a list of what the government is NOT going to be involved in?

Oh... and I love how you folks have nothing whatsoever to say about Obama's broken promises about cleaning up corruption, transparency, and working in a bipartisan manner. And how you didn't notice that it wasn't Obama who insisted on compulsory coverage, it was Hillary. Obamacare today, isn't what Barry said it was going to be during the campaign.

I'll address that by simply saying that he was naive to think he could "change the way Washington does business." I don't think Obama had any idea that K Street is bigger than Capitol Hill, and the pay is a lot better. He also rethought the compulsory coverage because it became obvious that without a public option, there would still be a huge number of people who would simply go uncovered and expect "free" treatment by the private sector (emergency rooms, etc.). The whole premise is to cut costs in those private sectors by not having people who could well insure themselves taking advantage of such free services. I think the common tag "everybody in the pool" is the only way it could work.

I have no problem with flipflopping on issues as an issue evolves. "Staying the course" got us into a lot of trouble not too long ago. I don't want a president who isn't amenable to changing his mind in order to make the right decisions. And that means ANY president.

 

[MaggieMae]

OK Murph

I'm calling you on it. Show me where the Bill is a "Government Takeover"

Quite simple....

Take out "pre-existing conditions" clauses and not a single insurer will survive. It will be impossible.

And all will be forced into a government plan.

I suggest the congress and the administration call it what it is and explain why....and people may support it.

It is a long term government takeover of healthcare...and for good or bad, it will cost all of us a fortune.

Interesting...after I answered the question with this post, the left disappeared.

Alas...logic scares off the best of them.

Perhaps most of us just get sick of answering the same presumption over and over again. I, for one, regularly disappear between the hours of 2PM and 4PM as I have other things to do. Is that okay?

 

[MaggieMae]

Quite simple....

Take out "pre-existing conditions" clauses and not a single insurer will survive. It will be impossible.

And all will be forced into a government plan.

I suggest the congress and the administration call it what it is and explain why....and people may support it.

It is a long term government takeover of healthcare...and for good or bad, it will cost all of us a fortune.

Interesting...after I answered the question with this post, the left disappeared.

Alas...logic scares off the best of them.

It's like the "death panels" thing. It doesn't actually say in the bill anything about death panels. But logically if you set unlimited demand on top of limited supply then you have to ration the limited supply some way. Currently we do it with the market. But with gov't outlawing that there will be no other way to do it than have a bureaucrat decide what is worthy to spend money on, what isn't. And that basically is a death panel.

If I tell you I'm going to drop a rock over my foot I don't have to say it's going to hit it. It is implicit in the original statement. Pretending otherwise is fantasy.

That's not even good spin.

 

[MaggieMae]

You make no sense. If the health care industry were so eager to have Obamacare installed, then why have their armies of lobbyists spent $6 million to lobby AGAINST it?

As for Obama's "attitude," when he invited bipartisanship way last February, he had no sooner announced that he thought it was a real possibility than Boehner and Grassley started grandstanding on nationwide television grumbling about it. Any attitude adjustment needs to be on the right side of the aisle.

Weird how for the first time since 1990, they're giving more in campaign contributions to Democrats than Republicans...
Insurance: Long-Term Contribution Trends | OpenSecrets

Even weirder that we've barely heard a squeak from them with the exception being when they found out that the fine on the individual mandate wasn't going to be high enough to force young people into the insurance pools.

You understand, don't you, that these companies would not simply end up under the government's thumb... they'd end up under its wing? Protected. Like Fannie and Freddie were protected. Too big to fail.

Oh gawd...now I've heard it all. Now the whole health care thing is a conspiracy. Uh huh. Of course F&F were established agencies (GSEs) of the US government, and were never private institutions taken over by the government, so your analogy is moot.

Insurance companies too big to fail? Many already have because of AIG's financial department playing with their assets like casino chips. So much for the "umbrella" of a big private conglomerate, eh?

 

[MaggieMae]

Quite simple....

Take out "pre-existing conditions" clauses and not a single insurer will survive. It will be impossible.

And all will be forced into a government plan.

I suggest the congress and the administration call it what it is and explain why....and people may support it.

It is a long term government takeover of healthcare...and for good or bad, it will cost all of us a fortune.

Absolute nonsense. The pre-existing condition clause allows insurance companies to deny insurance to those who need it most. Insurance companies will not go out of business. There is no government plan to be forced into, but there should be

Why is "need" a criterion for a business to supply service? You don't take out homeowner's insurance when your house is on fire. No one would write it since the cost is fairly well defined. Insisting on eliminating pre existing conditions is telling insurance companies to write unprofitable policies since people will wait until they get sick to get insurance. Eventually that will drive insurers out of business. Leaving the gov't as the insurer of last resoirt.
Just what has been stated in previous posts.

You can buy homeowners insurance any time you want. Like health insurance, the higher the risk, the higher the premium. Huh?

 

[MaggieMae]

They pass the bill, then use reconciliation to take some of the less agreeable portions out of it, and they'll be in fairly good shape. Most people won't even be affected in any significant way by the bill.

Agreed. Amendments are common.

The "less agreeable portions" are precisely those put in to buy the votes to get it passed in the first place.

Nobody's getting a special deal. Those provisions are out.

 

[Murf76]

[

This is directly from the REPUBLICAN healthcare plan summary, from gop.gov

Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.

So I guess the Republicans don't want a single insurance company to survive either.

lol, oops.

Don't try to bullshit us, children, lololololol

Why is it that you people ASSUME that all Republicans goosestep along together the way the loony left does?

We might not all agree with Boehner just because he has an (R) behind his name. Personally, I don't like the idea of high risk pools unless they're a niche market within the free market and completely voluntary.

If we need to use tax dollars... they need to be in state-run programs, and accountable to state citizens.

 

[MaggieMae]

OK Murph

I'm calling you on it. Show me where the Bill is a "Government Takeover"

Quite simple....

Take out "pre-existing conditions" clauses and not a single insurer will survive. It will be impossible.

And all will be forced into a government plan.

I suggest the congress and the administration call it what it is and explain why....and people may support it.

It is a long term government takeover of healthcare...and for good or bad, it will cost all of us a fortune.

This is directly from the REPUBLICAN healthcare plan summary, from gop.gov

Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.

So I guess the Republicans don't want a single insurance company to survive either.

lol, oops.

Don't try to bullshit us, children, lololololol

Indeed. I don't recall too many high profile Republicans (McConnell, Boehner, Cantor) coming on television and encouraging people to take a look at that website, do you? They get much better traction by hammering away to people a gazillion times a week that Obamacare is just a "takeover by the government of the entire healthcare industry." Say it enough times, and it will be believed by the masses. Who first said that? Aldous Huxley in Brave New World?

 

[MaggieMae]

[

This is directly from the REPUBLICAN healthcare plan summary, from gop.gov

Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.

So I guess the Republicans don't want a single insurance company to survive either.

lol, oops.

Don't try to bullshit us, children, lololololol

Why is it that you people ASSUME that all Republicans goosestep along together the way the loony left does?

We might not all agree with Boehner just because he has an (R) behind his name. Personally, I don't like the idea of high risk pools unless they're a niche market within the free market and completely voluntary.

If we need to use tax dollars... they need to be in state-run programs, and accountable to state citizens.

Some states have no control over Medicaid; others use the money wisely. The reason insurance coverage can't cross state lines is because each state wants to control the industry by their own internal insurance department watchdogs. I'd say by allowing each state to run any new federal health care program would just mean even more fingers in the pie which will assure its demise.

 

[Murf76]

Oh gawd...now I've heard it all. Now the whole health care thing is a conspiracy. Uh huh. Of course F&F were established agencies (GSEs) of the US government, and were never private institutions taken over by the government, so your analogy is moot.

Insurance companies too big to fail? Many already have because of AIG's financial department playing with their assets like casino chips. So much for the "umbrella" of a big private conglomerate, eh?

Not true. Fannie was privatized back in 1968 and Freddie was created to compete with it in 1970. Neither were explicitly guaranteed by the U.S. Government. All those investment dollars were spent on the bet that they would not be allowed to fail... and they were NOT allowed to fail.

 

[Murf76]

Some states have no control over Medicaid; others use the money wisely. The reason insurance coverage can't cross state lines is because each state wants to control the industry by their own internal insurance department watchdogs. I'd say by allowing each state to run any new federal health care program would just mean even more fingers in the pie which will assure its demise.

There shouldn't be ANY federal involvement in social welfare programs. The federal government needs to stop taxing so much that there's nothing left for the states. The states should be doing their own taxing and spending as they see fit.

That said, the Commerce Clause can (and should) prevent them from barring the sale of insurance products across state lines.

 

[Xenophon]

WHOT? Once a bill is signed, it becomes an Act and until challenged before the USSC is binding legislation.

Wrong, any house and senate can change any law that is not part of the constitution by the normal procedure, which is a house and senate vote pass followed by a POTUS signature.


Its astounding how many of you don't understand basic civics of your own country.

The legislative body cannot just "change" an enacted bill just because they THINK it violates some constitutional provision. They can bring a resolution to the floor to overturn an existing bill, but that process would need to go through the same cycle as any other bill.

You have this rediculous tendancy to restate what others tell you and claim its your own.

It just makes you look stupid toots, next time just admit you didn't know and move on.

 

[Murf76]

Sorry pal....pure propaganda

Not even CLOSE to a "Goverment Takeover"

If you've found an inaccuracy... by all means, do point it out. Are you saying that those new bureaucracies and government expansions aren't in the bill?

 

[rightwinger]

Some states have no control over Medicaid; others use the money wisely. The reason insurance coverage can't cross state lines is because each state wants to control the industry by their own internal insurance department watchdogs. I'd say by allowing each state to run any new federal health care program would just mean even more fingers in the pie which will assure its demise.

There shouldn't be ANY federal involvement in social welfare programs. The federal government needs to stop taxing so much that there's nothing left for the states. The states should be doing their own taxing and spending as they see fit.

That said, the Commerce Clause can (and should) prevent them from barring the sale of insurance products across state lines.

US relies on a STRONG Federal Government and a secondary State Government

It has done so for 145 years. This structure is what turned us from a bunch of affiliated states to the strongest economic and military power in the history of mankind

 

[rightwinger]

Sorry pal....pure propaganda

Not even CLOSE to a "Goverment Takeover"

If you've found an inaccuracy... by all means, do point it out. Are you saying that those new bureaucracies and government expansions aren't in the bill?

Does the Government tell you who should insure you? Do you pay your insurance to the Government? Does the Government run the hospitals, doctors offices, pharmacies, insurance comapanies? Do Doctors work for the Government?

Not even CLOSE to a Government takeover my friend

 

[Cuyo]

Oh... and I love how you folks have nothing whatsoever to say about Obama's broken promises about cleaning up corruption, transparency, and working in a bipartisan manner. And how you didn't notice that it wasn't Obama who insisted on compulsory coverage, it was Hillary. Obamacare today, isn't what Barry said it was going to be during the campaign.

Barry was very naive when he said he would work in a bipartisan manner. He did try, even John Boner said so in the beginning. In his mind, he thought his articulate and intelligent nature would overcome the stubbornness of the Republicans. He was sorely mistaken.

Obama's healthcare plan that he campaigned on is very similar to the house version. He laid it out very simply, If you like your current plan you keep it, but we'll work on premiums. It will set up exchanges so everyone can purchase like they had a group rate, with a public option, completely voluntary and premium funded, to compete with the private companies in the exchange. What's on the table now is not drastically different.

 

[Murf76]

Sorry pal....pure propaganda

Not even CLOSE to a "Goverment Takeover"

If you've found an inaccuracy... by all means, do point it out. Are you saying that those new bureaucracies and government expansions aren't in the bill?

Does the Government tell you who should insure you? Medicare Do you pay your insurance to the Government? Medicare Does the Government run the hospitals, doctors offices, pharmacies, insurance comapanies? VA, Military Do Doctors work for the Government? Yup... quite a few of them do

Not even CLOSE to a Government takeover my friend

For the 50% or so of healthcare that the government doesn't already run directly... When the federal government can tell you who your customers will be, what product you will offer, and what you can charge... they own your ass in all but name.

That's Fascism, bub.... the government "brain" controlling the body's industry.

 

[rightwinger]

If you've found an inaccuracy... by all means, do point it out. Are you saying that those new bureaucracies and government expansions aren't in the bill?

Does the Government tell you who should insure you? Medicare Do you pay your insurance to the Government? Medicare Does the Government run the hospitals, doctors offices, pharmacies, insurance comapanies? VA, Military Do Doctors work for the Government? Yup... quite a few of them do

Not even CLOSE to a Government takeover my friend

For the 50% or so of healthcare that the government doesn't already run directly... When the federal government can tell you who your customers will be, what product you will offer, and what you can charge... they own your ass in all but name.

That's Fascism, bub.... the government "brain" controlling the body's industry.

Oh...look at this

Obama is responsible for "Medicare" now....who'd a thunk it?
Show me where the doctors work for the Government. Show me the Government run Hospitals. Show me the Government run pharmaceutecal corporations. Show me where the Government is running the Insurance companies

You still have FAILED at showing a Government takeover

 

[Murf76]

Barry was very naive when he said he would work in a bipartisan manner. He did try, even John Boner said so in the beginning. In his mind, he thought his articulate and intelligent nature would overcome the stubbornness of the Republicans. He was sorely mistaken.

Porkulus was passed only THREE WEEKS into Obama's presidency. "We won, so we write the bill". And we didn't see him send it back to Nancy for a more bipartisan effort, did we?

This guy has been a total partisan asshole since he walked through the door. It was HIS job and HIS campaign promise to set the tone for bipartisanship. So, he can whine all he wants about partisanship. It was HIS failure to accomplish it. He had a choice... and he made it.

Further... none of that is an excuse for the corruption that runs rampant and unchallenged by this White House. Obama, himself, is the worst offender as we see clearly in his deference to union thugs, GM, Chrysler, Jeffrey Immelt, and closed-door meetings with special interests.

Obama's healthcare plan that he campaigned on is very similar to the house version. He laid it out very simply, If you like your current plan you keep it, but we'll work on premiums. It will set up exchanges so everyone can purchase like they had a group rate, with a public option, completely voluntary and premium funded, to compete with the private companies in the exchange. What's on the table now is not drastically different.

It damn sure isn't the same. For one thing, it's not voluntary.
There are mandates to individuals and employers. And you CAN'T keep your doctor or your insurance company if they've been run out of business. Even Obama has admitted that his promise that people could keep their doctor and their insurance is bullshit...
Obama Admits You Might Not Be Able to Keep Your Health Insurance Under Dem Plan | The FOX Nation

He never said they were going to seize our private medical records or spend trillions of dollars we don't have. He never said he was going to set up 150 new bureaucracies and government expansions.

 

[Murf76]

Oh...look at this

Obama is responsible for "Medicare" now....who'd a thunk it?
Show me where the doctors work for the Government. Show me the Government run Hospitals. Show me the Government run pharmaceutecal corporations. Show me where the Government is running the Insurance companies

You still have FAILED at showing a Government takeover

You're saying that the government doesn't run Medicare? or VA hospitals? or Military Healthcare? TriCare?... the FDA, which regulates pharmaceuticals?

The government is ALREADY running about half of healthcare in this country. And they're doing a crappy job of it. Medicare denies more claims than any other insurer, and it underpays doctors, resulting in higher charges to everyone else. It's going BANKRUPT. Drugs cost what they do because of the FDA. And have YOU ever had medical treatment as a military service member? I have. And I can tell you... it ain't no picnic.

Obamacare would control every aspect of private health insurance. It would decide what's covered, who has to be covered, and set caps on premiums. It's total, utter bullshit to claim that it doesn't exert onerous regulations that make it impossible for these private companies to manage their own risk pools. And yeah, they'll negotiate for the best deal they can, shelter themselves under the umbrella of Big Government, limp along for awhile... but eventually, the scorpion will sting them.

We are NOT imbeciles. We understand that the goal is single-payer.... and that Obamacare is just another stop in that direction.