If all the partisan BS on the AZ shooting...

[goldcatt]

...makes you as ill as it makes me, vent here.


Advance warning: No politicizing. Violators will be negged and I am judge, jury and repecutioner. The rest of us deserve a chance to speak without being drowned out in your bullshit. Thank you for your cooperation.

It doesn't bother me. It is human nature to cast blame...and we have all been here long enough to know what to expect to see posted at USMB.

Expecting it and tolerating it are two different things.

Although with a very few exceptions, I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised by the posts in this thread so far. Sanity exists, even at USMB.

 

[traveler52]

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "Don't Retreat, Reload" - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, " We Need To Take Out Harry Reid" - Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "I want my Constituents Armed and Dangerous", Republican Congresswoman Michelle Bachman.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that has a website with gunsites put the Congressional Districts of Men and Women who ran for Congress in 2010 - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "If voters don't like the results on Election, they should excerise their Second Amendment Solutions". Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

The opponent of Ms. Giffords invited supporters to Political Rallies held at Rifle Ranges and they could "Unload" a clip at a picture of Ms. Giffords.

The RW of this country used the language, they should own up to the use of it.

 

[Foxfyre]

This is a terrible tragedy, but it makes me also feel a little better about humanity in a way. So many people risked their lives, to save others. We have one terrible person, and many heros.

Unfortunately there are always going to be the mentally ill, the unstable powder keg, the stupid, the ignorant, and the just plain evil among us. And there is no way to know what fuse or spark will set any one of these people off.

The word on the shooter is that he was rejected by the military who understandably cannot say why for reasons of privacy. He was expelled from his college for disruptive behavior in the classroom. We all already know of the provocative and strange postings on his websites, etc.

But I know a LOT of people who are disruptive, wierd, provocative, strange, bizarre, etc. who have never been a danger to themselves or others. At what precise point would any of us have the expertise to know that a person should be restrained because he was a physical threat?

I don't have that expertise. I doubt any of us do. Did this young man demonstrate enough dangerous tendencies prior to this event to merit having his freedom restricted? I don't know. I just chalk this up as one of the risk of living our lives as free people. Bad drivers, accidents, inadvertent dangerous acts, and mental illness are all part of that risk.

Grieve for the victims, those who love them. Those who have loved the shooter are also in terrible distress. Those who now feel they maybe should have acted and didn't are dealing with terrible guilt.

And none of that is political.

 

[Meister]

Traveler52 is another partisan hack that just isn't smart enough not to show it.

 

[loosecannon]

This entire thing is just awful. While all the deaths are a tragedy, little nine year old Christina Greene's death is just heartbreaking. She didn't even get a chance to grow up. From what I've read she was a bright little girl with a strong interest in government. Who knows what the world was robbed of by her untimely and senseless death.

My husband is in tears over the little girls death.

Born on 9/11/01 to boot.

wow! That is an ominous factoid.

 

[goldcatt]

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "Don't Retreat, Reload" - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, " We Need To Take Out Harry Reid" - Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "I want my Constituents Armed and Dangerous", Republican Congresswoman Michelle Bachman.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that has a website with gunsites put the Congressional Districts of Men and Women who ran for Congress in 2010 - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "If voters don't like the results on Election, they should excerise their Second Amendment Solutions". Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

The opponent of Ms. Giffords invited supporters to Political Rallies held at Rifle Ranges and they could "Unload" a clip at a picture of Ms. Giffords.

The RW of this country used the language, they should own up to the use of it.

Wrong thread for that stuff.

 

[Ravi]

For those that brought up mental health issues that need to be addressed, take heart...things will get better because under health care reform mental illness will receive greater coverage:

Now mental health advocates are almost giddy. The law signed by President Obama last week expands parity to a much wider pool, making it possible for millions more people to get the same coverage for substance abuse and illnesses like bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia as they would for, say, diabetes or cancer. There are no exact figures, but the mentally ill are more likely to be uninsured than the general population, advocates and researchers say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30mental.html?_r=1

 

[Truthmatters]

She was born on 9/11 her parent confirmed it.

Maybe she was born 9/11/2000

 

[goldcatt]

For those that brought up mental health issues that need to be addressed, take heart...things will get better because under health care reform mental illness will receive greater coverage:

Now mental health advocates are almost giddy. The law signed by President Obama last week expands parity to a much wider pool, making it possible for millions more people to get the same coverage for substance abuse and illnesses like bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia as they would for, say, diabetes or cancer. There are no exact figures, but the mentally ill are more likely to be uninsured than the general population, advocates and researchers say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30mental.html?_r=1

I wish we could do something for attitudes and perceptions of mental illness as well as working on ways to address coverage. Whether this exact plan is what we should be doing in that regard is something I'm not going to address here, but coverage is certainly a problem with mental illness and treatment.

It's still stigmatized far more than any purely physical disease, which keeps some who need treatment from even seeking it. With sometimes tragic results, for themselves and others.

 

[Foxfyre]

Except that there is no evidence that this person ever sought or was ever denied treatment for mental illness. And few people realize they are mentally ill until there is some dramatic event that demonstrates it. So non sequitur.

Sometimes the better part of wisdom is to see things for what they are and just grieve instead of trying to find somebody or something to blame other than the person committing the bad act. And however terrible, everything cannot be predicted, foreseen, or prevented and everything does not have an identifiable reason or cause.

And I think that was the case with this tragedy. There was no sense or reason to it. The shooter either intentionally chose to commit a bad act or was acting out of some insane dilusion or impulse. That will no doubt be sorted out later. And it will make absolutely no difference to the people who are dead, injured, and grieving.

 

[Ravi]

For those that brought up mental health issues that need to be addressed, take heart...things will get better because under health care reform mental illness will receive greater coverage:

Now mental health advocates are almost giddy. The law signed by President Obama last week expands parity to a much wider pool, making it possible for millions more people to get the same coverage for substance abuse and illnesses like bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia as they would for, say, diabetes or cancer. There are no exact figures, but the mentally ill are more likely to be uninsured than the general population, advocates and researchers say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30mental.html?_r=1

I wish we could do something for attitudes and perceptions of mental illness as well as working on ways to address coverage. Whether this exact plan is what we should be doing in that regard is something I'm not going to address here, but coverage is certainly a problem with mental illness and treatment.

It's still stigmatized far more than any purely physical disease, which keeps some who need treatment from even seeking it. With sometimes tragic results, for themselves and others.

I think it is getting better from that angle, though. And that will continue with better treatment.

Before this there was a yearly cap on mental health coverage...and that cap was laughably low.

 

[Zoom-boing]

She was born on 9/11 her parent confirmed it.

Maybe she was born 9/11/2000

She was born on 9/11/2001, the day the terrorists attacked us.

 

[Bill Angel]

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "Don't Retreat, Reload" - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, " We Need To Take Out Harry Reid" - Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "I want my Constituents Armed and Dangerous", Republican Congresswoman Michelle Bachman.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that has a website with gunsites put the Congressional Districts of Men and Women who ran for Congress in 2010 - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "If voters don't like the results on Election, they should excerise their Second Amendment Solutions". Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

The opponent of Ms. Giffords invited supporters to Political Rallies held at Rifle Ranges and they could "Unload" a clip at a picture of Ms. Giffords.

The RW of this country used the language, they should own up to the use of it.

The rhetoric and scare tactics of the Right would seem echo the rhetoric and tactics used over 40 years ago by the "Black Panther" organization.

"From the beginning the Black Panther Party's focus on militancy came with a reputation for violence. They employed a California law which permitted carrying a loaded rifle or shotgun as long as it was publicly displayed and pointed at no one.Carrying weapons openly and making threats against police officers, for example, chants like "The Revolution has co-ome, it's time to pick up the gu-un. Off the pigs!",helped create the Panthers' reputation as a violent organization."
Black Panther Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's ironic to see the congruence in political tactics now being employed by the Right Wingers and their one time political nemesis, the Black Panthers.

 

[goldcatt]

Except that there is no evidence that this person ever sought or was ever denied treatment for mental illness. And few people realize they are mentally ill until there is some dramatic event that demonstrates it. So non sequitur.

Sometimes the better part of wisdom is to see things for what they are and just grieve instead of trying to find somebody or something to blame other than the person committing the bad act. And however terrible, everything cannot be predicted, foreseen, or prevented and everything does not have an identifiable reason or cause.

And I think that was the case with this tragedy. There was no sense or reason to it. The shooter either intentionally chose to commit a bad act or was acting out of some insane dilusion or impulse. That will no doubt be sorted out later. And it will make absolutely no difference to the people who are dead, injured, and grieving.

No, we have no evidence. Although the issue is an interesting one if you're looking at it from the point of view of preventing these occurrences moving forward. Not just this particular incident, but the pattern of violence that has taken place from schools to restaurants to standoffs with law enforcement over bizarre behavior to now political events. If not this incident, it seems to be a common thread in the overall pattern.

You're right in that it makes no difference to those dead, injured or affected. But it may be a discussion worth having looking ahead.

 

[goldcatt]

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "Don't Retreat, Reload" - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, " We Need To Take Out Harry Reid" - Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "I want my Constituents Armed and Dangerous", Republican Congresswoman Michelle Bachman.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that has a website with gunsites put the Congressional Districts of Men and Women who ran for Congress in 2010 - Former Half Term Governor of Alaska, Mayor of Wasilla (Meth Capitol of the U.S.) and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin.

Was it a Republican or a Democrat that said, "If voters don't like the results on Election, they should excerise their Second Amendment Solutions". Former Republican Senate Candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle.

The opponent of Ms. Giffords invited supporters to Political Rallies held at Rifle Ranges and they could "Unload" a clip at a picture of Ms. Giffords.

The RW of this country used the language, they should own up to the use of it.

The rhetoric and scare tactics of the Right would seem echo the rhetoric and tactics used over 40 years ago by the "Black Panther" organization.

"From the beginning the Black Panther Party's focus on militancy came with a reputation for violence. They employed a California law which permitted carrying a loaded rifle or shotgun as long as it was publicly displayed and pointed at no one.Carrying weapons openly and making threats against police officers, for example, chants like "The Revolution has co-ome, it's time to pick up the gu-un. Off the pigs!",helped create the Panthers' reputation as a violent organization."
Black Panther Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's ironic to see the congruence in political tactics now being employed by the Right Wingers and their one time political nemesis, the Black Panthers.

If I may suggest some reading material, the OP would be a good place to start.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>


What I wonder is if the rhetoric is really any different then it was 50 or 100 years ago or if we've fundamentally changed how we view things.


In the past opinions evolved based on debate, based on newspapers, based on books. More and more it seems that opinion is based on short talking points, bumper stickers, 10-second sound bites, tweets, etc..., etc... In the past we examined issues, now we use marketing techniques to grab for attention.



>>>>

 

[jillian]

<Venting>

It's shit like the following thread which just serves no purpose other than flaiming hackery:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-r...-still-more-liberals-that-need-targeting.html

yeah, that's pretty bad...

this one's pretty disgusting too...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-r...plotted-to-blame-tea-party-for-slaughter.html

and this one

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-r...who-are-inciting-the-violence-a-reminder.html

usual suspects.

 

[goldcatt]

For those that brought up mental health issues that need to be addressed, take heart...things will get better because under health care reform mental illness will receive greater coverage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30mental.html?_r=1

I wish we could do something for attitudes and perceptions of mental illness as well as working on ways to address coverage. Whether this exact plan is what we should be doing in that regard is something I'm not going to address here, but coverage is certainly a problem with mental illness and treatment.

It's still stigmatized far more than any purely physical disease, which keeps some who need treatment from even seeking it. With sometimes tragic results, for themselves and others.

I think it is getting better from that angle, though. And that will continue with better treatment.

Before this there was a yearly cap on mental health coverage...and that cap was laughably low.

I'm trying really hard not to derail my own thread into a partisan debate over health care here.

IMO, the issues with mental illness, how it's viewed and how it's treated go far beyond what the health care law addresses. I suppose any attempt to address it is a step in the right direction, and in that sense it's certainly laudable. I think you're right about changing attitudes too, but as with any large scale shift in attitudes it happens very slowly.

But maybe this is a different thread. It certainly deserves a full discussion without taking away from the folks who want to talk about the shooting itself.

 

[Foxfyre]

Except that there is no evidence that this person ever sought or was ever denied treatment for mental illness. And few people realize they are mentally ill until there is some dramatic event that demonstrates it. So non sequitur.

Sometimes the better part of wisdom is to see things for what they are and just grieve instead of trying to find somebody or something to blame other than the person committing the bad act. And however terrible, everything cannot be predicted, foreseen, or prevented and everything does not have an identifiable reason or cause.

And I think that was the case with this tragedy. There was no sense or reason to it. The shooter either intentionally chose to commit a bad act or was acting out of some insane dilusion or impulse. That will no doubt be sorted out later. And it will make absolutely no difference to the people who are dead, injured, and grieving.

No, we have no evidence. Although the issue is an interesting one if you're looking at it from the point of view of preventing these occurrences moving forward. Not just this particular incident, but the pattern of violence that has taken place from schools to restaurants to standoffs with law enforcement over bizarre behavior to now political events. If not this incident, it seems to be a common thread in the overall pattern.

You're right in that it makes no difference to those dead, injured or affected. But it may be a discussion worth having looking ahead.

Perhaps the day will come when mental illness will be as exact a science as say diagnosing gallstones or an ovarian cyst and will be just as curable. These days it isn't. Many a psychiatrist or psychologist has failed to diagnose homicidal or suicidal tendencies in a patient until it was too late to prevent a tragic act.

The absurdity comes in believing we can prevent tragic acts by removing any possible 'trigger' that inspired them. We don't have a clue what the 'trigger' is going to be as it seems to be different for almost all. If there was a specific pattern it almost certainly would have been identified by now. But apparently there isn't.

But yes we should keep researching and studying and learning and trying to deal with it better. And that isn't going to happen through finger pointing, judmentalism, oneupmanship, or accusations. And I suppose we should be grateful that hundreds of millions of people exposed to the same sorts of things that the few who commit bad acts are exposed to demonstrate no homicidal or suicidal tendencies at all.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I also hope the neighbor/friend who brought the little girl to see the representative is doing okay. She must feel terrible after having had such good intentions.

That will be a burden I do not think I could bare.