If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[emilynghiem]

who is keeping you from practicing your religion?

it just shouldn't have anything to do with my life.

but are you aware that has nothing to do with this thread? perhaps you're looking for something else?

Because I believe in the Constitution to mean equal protection of people's interests regardless of religious or political views, then the current system of abusing party politics to overrule and exclude opposing views violates the higher Constitutional standards I believe in.

Jillian you seem to believe in the same principles I do of NOT allowing people's individual religious beliefs to be imposed on others, especially not by govt bias in policy.

Since you and I seem to agree on this, it is NOT true that you don't want anything to do with "my" beliefs, because you are saying the same thing!

I just take it one step further, by defending all people's beliefs equally under the same Constitutional laws you invoke to defend your own.

We both believe in this same law, but you are only interested in defending it for yourself, and I made the commitment to defend this same law for all people equally as myself.

It's still the same law or principle we are both believe in.

And yes, Jillian, my exercise of Constitutional equality and inclusion is SEVERLY abridged by this partisan habit of manipulating votes and media/public perception to bully one group or another. That is not equal protection of interests, representation and due process, but a constant war going on with words, with media and in elections and courts and congress.

It is a constant battle and every day I feel the pressure of defending equal justice under law from attack on all sides, by well-meaning people just like you who don't mean to impose on others but are only focused on defending your own positions, not others' equally. So when other people do as you do, it promotes conflicts and wars, where everyone loses out.

That is the reality I face every day, so thank you for asking!

 

[jillian]

Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.

you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.

so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.

Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?


Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.

yep.. but they're republicans now.

Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/eric-cantor-anti-semitism_n_1438031.html

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw

 

[koshergrl]

However racist individuals may or may not be (or however racist they are portrayed by those who are truly racist) the Republican Party does not endorse or support racism.

Democrat policy is in and of itself racist to the core. The concept of some people being more deserving of life, wealth, whatever...is a democrat concept and is racist at its core. Negative eugenics, held dear by Democrats, is racist at its core.

And they have never been friends of the Jewish people. Ever. Even the Jewish Dems are not friends of the Jewish people. It's insane.

 

[nitroz]

All the gun nuts would charge and turn mexico into swiss cheese.

 

[emilynghiem]

don't pollute my party with your anti-semitism and terrorist support.

thanks.

Dear Jillian:
1. First I ask to clarify and apologize to you if I offended you unintentionally by my comments. In no way do I support or believe in imposing religious views on someone either personally or especially not by govt or party pressure. But I do recognize this is going on.
I sympathize equally with the Jewish and Palestinians/Muslims who want peace with each other, but are overrun by people on both sides who abuse political authority or influence to threaten violence and commit acts of war as retaliation instead of using armed forces for defense only. It should never be for attacks to incite more wars, but people on both sides will do that, at the expense of their populations who want peace and civil negotiations.

The same with our political parties, where the media messages and images skew the very worst of each party's approaches, and censor the good goals they actually share in common. That does not win elections, so spending money on campaigns is not going there.

2. If it gives you any hope, as a fellow Democrat, I have participated in a resolutions/platform meeting where one of the committee members pointed out how useless it was that every year the pro Jewish members propose one resolution while the pro-Palestinian members propose another, and the two cancel out each other's ability at any real progress towards peace. He suggested instead some process between the members where there is collaborative dialogue and concerted effort to address common issues and agree on common points and goals, instead of competing separately to overrule the other.

If we were to enforce the Constitution and respect views equally, only the policies that satisfy both sides would survive the editing process. So we would reward the peacemakers who are equally concerned for and protecting the interests of people from both sides of any conflict, and quit empowering and egging on the bullies to censor and exclude trying to win.

I agree in the use of military forces for security and protection; but emphasize that these should be used for defense only, same with using the legal and political process for DEFENSE of equal justice and protection under the laws, and not for attack.

If we can first make peace and work together on common goals of national security, for ourselves and others equally, then the physical steps of enacting and enforcing such an agreement will follow. I'm interested in hearing more from the people who can bring about peaceful working relations on both sides, and give more authority to them first.

I find the people whose authority is most respected and who have the greatest influence are the ones who respect people on both sides. When it is clear the decisions made are by unified agreement on what is good for all people equally, that has greater chance of being enforced rather than policies imposed that both sides fear is favoring the other more.

I believe we will see peace in our lifetimes, by agreeing to seek this central and unifying authority in decisions and policies, and putting our personal politics aside to be resolved as a consequence of peacemaking, not as a condition place on peacemaking in advance.

I saw hope within the members of the Democrat Party, but we are fighting a similar battle where the peacemakers working behind the scenes are too often overrun in the scramble by elected leaders to get votes by exploiting issues instead of solving them. So our uphill battles are not unlike the Jewish and Palestinian people facing similar situations, where they are often used as pawns in a powergrab among leaders looking to dominate the others.

Whatever we can achieve at home, we can use that experience to help people in other countries and situations. But if we cannot even make peace within our own parties, without giving in to popular politics to bully or bulldoze over opposing sides, what authority do we have to ask other people to quit giving in to the same political games not solving problems?

 

[uscitizen]

So no one has read Judges?

God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?

 

[JWBooth]

So no one has read Judges?

God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?

How many times did Israel abandon the God of Abraham and Moses and take up the gods of the Philistines and Canaanites?
Enough times that he gave up on them and let them be scattered to the winds.

 

[oldfart]

Jillian, it's been a good discussion even when it's been messy so you did good to start it. My take:

1. If there was a military or anti-terrorist solution to Gaza the Israelis would have done it by now. Remember Lebanon? I think the Israelis are just winging this one; they will do a sweep, remove a lot of weapon stashes, kill a number of Hamas fighters and innocent civilians and people who are in between, and then leave. Hamas will then return. Repeat in five years.

2. Neither the Palestinian Authority nor Israel recognize Hamas, so this is not a conflict between nations. If there was some way to bring Gaza under the control of the Palestinian Authority, they would probably be able to stop the attacks. But if Israel knew how to do that, they would have done it by now. See a pattern?

3. I don't see anything the United States can do to help that the Israelis and Palestinian Authority working together could not do better. So working out a deal to settle the larger issues is probably the only way to resolve Gaza in the next 100 years or so.

4. This would put the United States squarely in the middle of Israeli domestic politics, where America should not be.

I understand the frustration, but I really don't see much America can do to help. If America takes responsibility for resolving the situation in some military sense, how would it enforce that solution if either or both parties broke it? For example, say we got everyone to agree to allow a Palestinian Authority police force in Gaza to stop rocket attacks, the Palestinian Authority agreed to throw in the towel on those parts of the occupied territories on the Israeli side of the wall, and Israel agreed to treat the Palestinian Authority full recognition and to accord Palestinians living inside Israel full rights of citizenship (note that these conditions are anathema to the parties asked to bend on them). What do we do when Hamas manages to sneak a few rockets into Gaza and launch them? Or if Israel decides to expand its settlements program? Or both? I just don't see how America can act as a guarantor of a treaty in a military sense in this conflict.

OK, I'm done so everyone can resume the crossfire.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Are you an isolationist?

As far as military intervention,yes.

So there's no one in the world you'd raise a weapon to help? No one?

Yes if there was a declaration of war by 3/4 of Congress.

 

[koshergrl]

So no one has read Judges?

God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?

That does not absolve us from responsibility to do the right thing.

 

[WillowTree]

you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.

so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.

Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?


Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.

yep.. but they're republicans now.

Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus

Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw

Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?

 

[Connery]

Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to defend themselves as they see fit. Clearly Israel has the support of the Senate as they just passed a resolution Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously. “The passage of this resolution sends a strong and clear message that the United States stands in solidarity with the State of Israel,” Senator Kirk said. “Israel is a fellow democracy and has an inherent right to defend its citizens from terrorist missiles."

“We strongly reiterate our support for Israel’s right to self-defense as a barrage of missiles from Gaza are attacking the people of Israel and endangering innocent lives,” said U.S. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. “The passage of this Senate resolution clearly expresses the United States’ unwavering commitment to the security of our nation’s close and historic ally in the Middle East. We firmly stand united with Israel against terrorism.”
http://www.kirk.senate.gov/pdfs/israelresolutionnovember.pdf

Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously

Should Obama get weak in the knees he will have to weigh the price of his reluctance to support in same measure the letter if not the spirit of the resolution.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

You do understand that not blindly accepting the narrative that Israel is wrong makes you racist, don't you?

 

[WillowTree]

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.

 

[jillian]

Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?


Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.

yep.. but they're republicans now.

Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus

Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw

Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?

willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.

 

[jillian]

Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to defend themselves as they see fit. Clearly Israel has the support of the Senate as they just passed a resolution Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously. “The passage of this resolution sends a strong and clear message that the United States stands in solidarity with the State of Israel,” Senator Kirk said. “Israel is a fellow democracy and has an inherent right to defend its citizens from terrorist missiles."

“We strongly reiterate our support for Israel’s right to self-defense as a barrage of missiles from Gaza are attacking the people of Israel and endangering innocent lives,” said U.S. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. “The passage of this Senate resolution clearly expresses the United States’ unwavering commitment to the security of our nation’s close and historic ally in the Middle East. We firmly stand united with Israel against terrorism.”
http://www.kirk.senate.gov/pdfs/israelresolutionnovember.pdf

Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously

Should Obama get weak in the knees he will have to weigh the price of his reluctance to support in same measure the letter if not the spirit of the resolution.

doesn't seem like he's weak in the knees...

Obama administration condemns Hamas rocket fire, backs Israel’s right to self-defense - The Washington Post

 

[WillowTree]

yep.. but they're republicans now.

Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus

Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues

The Jewish Week | Connecting the World to Jewish News, Culture, and Opinion

Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?

willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.

I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.

 

[jillian]

Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?

willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.

I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.

you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?

 

[emilynghiem]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

With what, their leaf blowers?

Actually with this administration, I think they would apologize for America's past sins, and just offer more room for the chickens and roosters to come home to roost, including safe haven for the eggs and chicks.

If pushed by the Republicans, they might offer to conduct an FBI investigation into the matter, while blaming the attacks on a youtube video....

 

[WillowTree]

willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.

I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.

you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?

I never heard him say he hates Jewish people I have heard him say he's anti war. Is that the same thing?