I would be getting a handle on NF3 first.

[Midnight Marauder]

With over 17,000 times the greenhouse gas potency of CO2, and with its much longer lingering effects -- since it stays in the atmosphere for 700 years vs. CO2's 200, one would think the EPA and the greenies would be all over this poisonous, totally man-made gas.

They're not. In fact, it's not even on the radar.

Mainly because it's not a product of evil capitalistic mankind's fossil fuels combustion fetish.

It's produced for helping make cool things, like most any electronic circuits, flat-panel displays, oh and those good ol' solar panels!

We've increased production and concentration in the atmosphere of this harmful, poisonous-to-all-living-things gas by 1000-fold, and you hear nary a word about it while CO2, the LIFE GIVER of the planet is ruled harmful.

NF3 is FAR cheaper and easier to control and regulate than CO2, and is produced ONLY by man, yet it's ignored totally.

C'mon, environmentally conscious people, wake up!

 

[Old Rocks]

How many giga-tons a year of NF3 is produced?

And what make you think that the potent industrial GHGs are not included in the estimation of the warming?

Have you actually done any research on the subject? If so, where are your links?

Come on, Midnight, do you have anything other than wingnut yap-yap?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

How many giga-tons a year of NF3 is produced?

How many do you think is needed, for NF3 to have the same effect as CO2?

17,000 times LESS. That's how much. And it sticks around for 700 years in the atmosphere.

Aren't you at all concerned?

You're against regulating NF3? Why?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

And what make you think that the potent industrial GHGs are not included in the estimation of the warming?

No one ever said that, least of all me. That's your idiotic, knee-jerk assumption.

Don't you think we should get a handle on this poisonous man-made shit while it's easy and cheap to do NOW, instead of waiting until it's a crisis?

We shouldn't be proactive? WE ARE POISONING THE PLANET!!!

 

[Oddball]

With over 17,000 times the greenhouse gas potency of CO2, and with its much longer lingering effects -- since it stays in the atmosphere for 700 years vs. CO2's 200, one would think the EPA and the greenies would be all over this poisonous, totally man-made gas.

They're not. In fact, it's not even on the radar.

Mainly because it's not a product of evil capitalistic mankind's fossil fuels combustion fetish.

It's produced for helping make cool things, like most any electronic circuits, flat-panel displays, oh and those good ol' solar panels!

We've increased production and concentration in the atmosphere of this harmful, poisonous-to-all-living-things gas by 1000-fold, and you hear nary a word about it while CO2, the LIFE GIVER of the planet is ruled harmful.

NF3 is FAR cheaper and easier to control and regulate than CO2, and is produced ONLY by man, yet it's ignored totally.

C'mon, environmentally conscious people, wake up!

I have a plausible answer:

Recently elemental fluorine has been introduced as an environmentally friendly replacement for nitrogen trifluoride in state-of-the-art high volume manufacturing of flat panel displays and solar cell manufacturing.

Nitrogen trifluoride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The last thing in the world that the enviro-wackaloons want to admit is that the free marketplace can clean up its act all by itself, based upon nothing more than self-interest.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

With over 17,000 times the greenhouse gas potency of CO2, and with its much longer lingering effects -- since it stays in the atmosphere for 700 years vs. CO2's 200, one would think the EPA and the greenies would be all over this poisonous, totally man-made gas.

They're not. In fact, it's not even on the radar.

Mainly because it's not a product of evil capitalistic mankind's fossil fuels combustion fetish.

It's produced for helping make cool things, like most any electronic circuits, flat-panel displays, oh and those good ol' solar panels!

We've increased production and concentration in the atmosphere of this harmful, poisonous-to-all-living-things gas by 1000-fold, and you hear nary a word about it while CO2, the LIFE GIVER of the planet is ruled harmful.

NF3 is FAR cheaper and easier to control and regulate than CO2, and is produced ONLY by man, yet it's ignored totally.

C'mon, environmentally conscious people, wake up!

I have a plausible answer:

Recently elemental fluorine has been introduced as an environmentally friendly replacement for nitrogen trifluoride in state-of-the-art high volume manufacturing of flat panel displays and solar cell manufacturing.

Nitrogen trifluoride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The last thing in the world that the enviro-wackaloons want to admit is that the free marketplace can clean up its act all by itself, based upon nothing more than self-interest.

Fluorine is prohibitively expensive for smaller-medium sized operations, and of course as you know won't even be considered in China or anywhere else but here. In addition, fluorine gas is a highly toxic, corrosive oxidant, which can cause ignition of organic material. Fluorine gas has a characteristic pungent odor that is detectable in concentrations as low as 20 ppb. As it is so reactive, all materials of construction must be carefully selected and metal surfaces must be passivated. In short, it's nasty, expensive and dangerous shit to work with and this is why no one does it unless they absolutely have no other alternative.

But your other point is spot on.

MY point is, NF3 is man-made, that is the ONLY way it exists, it is a pollutant, is harmful to the environment, poisonous to life, and we really should start inventorying it and regulating it NOW, before it gets out of hand and becomes the next "crisis" 20 or 30 years down the road, or whenever the environazis believe they need a new crisis.

Folks who are environmentally conscious and believe the greenhouse effect could someday get out of control should be all for this proactive approach I am calling for.

 

[Old Rocks]

Greenhouse gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Global warming potential
The global warming potential (GWP) depends on both the efficiency of the molecule as a greenhouse gas and its atmospheric lifetime. GWP is measured relative to the same mass of CO2 and evaluated for a specific timescale. Thus, if a gas has a high GWP on a short time scale (say 20 years) but has only a short lifetime, it will have a large GWP on a 20 year scale but a small one on a 100 year scale. Conversely, if a molecule has a longer atmospheric lifetime than CO2 its GWP will increase with the timescale considered.

Examples of the atmospheric lifetime and GWP for several greenhouse gases include:[51]

Carbon dioxide has a variable atmospheric lifetime, and cannot be specified precisely.[52] Recent work indicates that recovery from a large input of atmospheric CO2 from burning fossil fuels will result in an effective lifetime of tens of thousands of years.[53][54] Carbon dioxide is defined to have a GWP of 1 over all time periods.
Methane has an atmospheric lifetime of 12 ± 3 years and a GWP of 72 over 20 years, 25 over 100 years and 7.6 over 500 years. The decrease in GWP at longer times is because methane is degraded to water and CO2 through chemical reactions in the atmosphere.
Nitrous oxide has an atmospheric lifetime of 114 years and a GWP of 289 over 20 years, 298 over 100 years and 153 over 500 years.
CFC-12 has an atmospheric lifetime of 100 years and a GWP of 11000 over 20 years, 10900 over 100 years and 5200 over 500 years.
HCFC-22 has an atmospheric lifetime of 12 years and a GWP of 5160 over 20 years, 1810 over 100 years and 549 over 500 years.
Tetrafluoromethane has an atmospheric lifetime of 50,000 years and a GWP of 5210 over 20 years, 7390 over 100 years and 11200 over 500 years.
Hexafluoroethane has an atmospheric lifetime of 10,000 years and a GWP of 8630 over 20 years, 12200 over 100 years and 18200 over 500 years.
Sulphur hexafluoride has an atmospheric lifetime of 3,200 years and a GWP of 16300 over 20 years, 22800 over 100 years and 32600 over 500 years.
Nitrogen trifluoride has an atmospheric lifetime of 740 years and a GWP of 12300 over 20 years, 17200 over 100 years and 20700 over 500 years.
The use of CFC-12 (except some essential uses) has been phased out due to its ozone depleting properties.[55] The phasing-out of less active HCFC-compounds will be completed in 2030.[56]

 

[Old Rocks]

Industrial GHG Solutions

Although the U.S. EPA recently finalized a mandatory reporting rule that will require regulated parties to begin reporting greenhouse gas (GHG) emission next year, several states have enacted similar reporting rules that are already in effect. In Oregon, regulated parties are required to report 2009 emission levels by March 2010, This is approximately one year before the EPA’s reporting rule takes effect. That rule requires regulated parties to report 2010 emissions levels in 2011.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

So, we see Old Crocks isn't at all worried about NF3, and sounding exactly like those he calls "deniers" when they discuss how insignificant the amount of CO2 is in the total atmosphere.

NF3 isn't significant folks, according to Old Crocks. And he's got cut and pasted pablum to prove it!

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, when one is interested in a subject, rather than just accepting what is in wingnut talking points, one goes to sources. At least, someone with intelligiance does that.

Midnight just flaps his yap, and makes a fool of himself once again.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Well, when one is interested in a subject, rather than just accepting what is in wingnut talking points, one goes to sources. At least, someone with intelligiance does that.

Midnight just flaps his yap, and makes a fool of himself once again.

NF3 is not regulated, is not inventoried or controlled, is completely man-made and is one of the most efficacious greenhouse gases in existence. We are spewing tons of it into the atmosphere, poisoning it. You have done nothing at all to refute or even address these facts.

And Old Crocks here has no problem with these facts, because evidently he's a watermelon -- green only on the outside, but communist red within.

He doesn't believe we should get a handle on this deadly gas now while we can, doesn't believe we should be proactive before it's too late. Prefers we wait until it becomes another "crisis" the watermelon community can hang its hat on.

 

[Oddball]

Old Rocksinthehead is more concerned about a 100% natural atmospheric trace element, than an actual man-made pollutant.

So pathetic it's laughable.

 

[Old Rocks]

Now we are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere by the giga-ton. And you goofs bring up something that we are putting in by the tens of tons.

Industrial GHGs must be controlled, but they are more of a threat to health than a threat to the climate. Of course, they do have an impact, but nothing like the giga-tons of CO2, and, potentially, CH4.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Now we are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere by the giga-ton. And you goofs bring up something that we are putting in by the tens of tons.

Industrial GHGs must be controlled, but they are more of a threat to health than a threat to the climate. Of course, they do have an impact, but nothing like the giga-tons of CO2, and, potentially, CH4.

NF3 is man-made, does not occur in nature, is 17,000 times WORSE of a greenhouse gas than CO2, stays in the atmosphere for 700 years, and isn't inventoried or even measured for. We have NO idea how much is in the atmosphere and no REAL idea how much we're "pumping" into the atmosphere. But it's a "cool gas" since it's not a product of evil man's fossil fuels combustion fetish, and is vital for the making of electronics, flat-panel displays, oh and those good ol' solar panels.

CO2 is organic, occurs naturally, and is vital for all life on earth. Vital. For. All. Life. On. Earth.

At what point, Old Crocks, should we start inventorying, measuring and controlling NF3? When it becomes next decade's "crisis" or NOW, while we can still easily and cheaply get a handle on it?

Can't we walk and chew gum at the same time? You're against my premise why exactly, watermelon? Don't you care about the planet? We are POISONING it with NF3. And you're okay with that.

 

[Oddball]

Now we are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere by the giga-ton. And you goofs bring up something that we are putting in by the tens of tons.

Industrial GHGs must be controlled, but they are more of a threat to health than a threat to the climate. Of course, they do have an impact, but nothing like the giga-tons of CO2, and, potentially, CH4.

Thanks, Malthus.

 

[Old Rocks]

Midnight, did you not get the part about the EPA regulating industrial GHGs? Yes, we have to control them both from the perspective of health and GHG. However, their impact, in total, does not even begin to show on the screen when you consider an increase of 40% in atmospheric CO2 and an increase of 250% in CH4 from man's activities. As well as an increasing acidity in our oceans.

And as far as your concern about NF3, that is simply a red herring to hide your lack of knowledge and concern about the real warming that the world is presently experiancing.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Midnight, did you not get the part about the EPA regulating industrial GHGs? Yes, we have to control them both from the perspective of health and GHG. However, their impact, in total, does not even begin to show on the screen when you consider an increase of 40% in atmospheric CO2 and an increase of 250% in CH4 from man's activities. As well as an increasing acidity in our oceans.

And as far as your concern about NF3, that is simply a red herring to hide your lack of knowledge and concern about the real warming that the world is presently experiancing.

Goob. NF3 is not regulated by the EPA, and isn't even on the Kyoto list for GHGs. It should be.

No agreement?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

And as far as your concern about NF3, that is simply a red herring to hide your lack of knowledge and concern about the real warming that the world is presently experiancing.

That gave me a good belly laugh, coming from you Old Crocks!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Old Crocks is against getting a handle on one of the worst greenhouse gases now, before it really becomes a big problem.

Which tells me he doesn't really believe in Anthropomorphic Global Warming.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Old Crocks is against getting a handle on one of the worst greenhouse gases now, before it really becomes a big problem.

Which tells me he doesn't really believe in Anthropomorphic Global Warming.

Interesting how OldCrocks FLED this thread, deciding instead to continue his bile regurgitation elsewhere.

NONE of the watermelon cultists can stand in the light, the crucible of truth. It's anathema to them.