Annie
Diamond Member
- Nov 22, 2003
- 50,848
- 4,827
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It's been a few days, thought it wasn't worth the bandwidth, then...
http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29439&highlight=cheney
So...
http://www.radioblogger.com/#001390
http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29439&highlight=cheney
So...
http://www.radioblogger.com/#001390
MSNBC pundit and West Wing producer/writer Lawrence O'Donnell and Hugh on whether Vice President was drunk.
02-15odonnell.mp3
HH: Hi, Lawrence. Welcome back.
LO: Thank you.
HH: Good to have you on. Lawrence O'Donnell, yesterday you posted at the Huffington Post about Dick Cheney, Was Cheney Drunk? Did you come up with the headline by the way?
LO: Yes, I did. That's the first time I've come up with my own headline. I think it was a very simple question that needed to be asked, that now has been asked, and the Vice President's answer is that I had one beer at lunch. When I raised this question, many people thought it was absolutely outrageous to even consider the possibility that Dick Cheney would have any trace of alchohol in his system. We now know that he did, and we have his word that it was one beer. I don't know what his word is worth on this subject. It isn't worth much to me, because he did everything he possibly could to avoid us being able to know the truth about that.
HH: Let me read the two paragraphs from yesterday's post at the Huffington Post. "How do we know there was no alcohol? Cheney refused to talk to local authorities until the next day. No point in giving him a breathalyzer then. Every lawyer I've talked to assumes Cheney was too drunk to talk to the cops after the shooting. The next question for the White House should be, was Cheney drunk? I have never gone hunting with ultra-rich Republicans on a Saturday afternoon, but I have seen them tailgating at Ivy League football games, so it's hard for me to believe that any of their Saturday lunches are alcohol free." Now first off, Larry, did you...what lawyers did you talk to that assumed Cheney was drunk?
LO: Oh, my brothers are all lawyers. I must have talked to a dozen lawyers yesterday, including a former U.S. attorney...
HH: Who would that be?
LO: I'm not going to tell you who I talked to, Hugh. Of course I talked to a bunch of lawyers. It doesn't matter.
HH: Wait. Why should I believe you, Larry, if you don't believe the Vice President?
LO: I'll tell you. Let me make it clear to you. The person who suggested this question to me was not a lawyer. The person who suggested this question to me was an alcoholic, okay? That's who suggested the question to me. And then I raised the question with other lawyers, and they said oh, yeah. That's why you avoid the police after an accident. I ask you and your audience, Hugh, please tell me why did Ted Kennedy avoid the police after his accident on Chappaquiddick? Do you think alcohol and inebriation had something to do with it?
HH: Lawrence O'Donnell, I don't believe you. I don't believe you talked to lawyers who told you that Cheney was too drunk to talk. I just don't believe you.
LO: All right. Don't. Don't.
HH: Do you have any name you'll give me that we can double check?
LO: Listen, Hugh, my entire family are lawyers. Every one of them, okay?
HH: Could I talk to one of them?
LO: No, it's ridiculous. I talk to lawyers all the time.
HH: Did you talk to them yesterday?
LO: What...tell me what difference that makes? Let's pretend...
HH: Well, you wrote it. I want to know about your...
LO: Let's assume that I talked to no one. Let's say that's a lie.
HH: Okay. So you did lie about this?
LO: Say it's a lie. I'm not saying...no.
HH: Did you make...
LO: No. You say it's a lie. Now let's proceed with the argument with that being a lie. So what?
HH: No, no. I'm just trying to get the facts, Lawrence. I would like to know...
LO: Yes, I talked to a bunch of lawyers.
HH: How many?
LO: Five, six.
HH: Five, six lawyers, and they were all your brothers?
LO: No.
HH: How may were your brothers?
LO: One.
HH: And who, besides your brother, did you talk...like entertainment laywers? Century City lawyers?
LO: No. Criminal lawyers.
HH: You talked to five criminal lawyers?
LO: Prosecutors and defense lawyers. That's the only ones I know.
HH: Monday and Tuesday, you talked to five lawyers?
LO: On Monday, yeah.
HH: On Monday, just on Monday. Would you give me the name of one of them?
LO: No.
HH: Because none of them really said he was too drunk to talk, right?
LO: They all did.
HH: They all said, five lawyers, and you won't let me talk to one of them?
LO: NO.
HH: Why?
LO: Because they're guessing. They're guessing. All we're doing is guessing, because the Vice President forced us to guess, because he did exactly what Ted Kennedy did at Chappaquiddick. Exactly, Hugh. The same behavior. That's what you do when you're drunk. Now there's other possible reasons why the Vice President did what he did. There are many other possible reasons, but he's going to have to tell me what those are, and he's going to have to make those believable. So far, I do not believe him...
HH: And I don't believe you.
LO: You've got two approaches to this. You've got two approaches to it, Hugh. Either the Vice President was a moron on Saturday, or Karl Rove, who knew about it at 7:30PM, was also a moron. Or, they were both very smart. Now the smart version about the way they handled it is they had something to hide on Saturday night, and they successfully hid it. That's the smart version.
HH: Lawrence, I want to go back to why you won't tell me any of your five lawyers, or your brother. Why not just give us the names, so we can check to see if you just didn't make this up?
LO: They're not public figures, and it doesn't matter. Read the post. It doesn't matter. The lawyer part of it doesn't matter.
HH: Will you give me their names off-air?
LO: No.
HH: So even if I agree not to broadcast it...
LO: Do you want my source, do you want my source on how I knew Karl Rove was the source for Time magazine?
HH: No, I...
LO: I barely told anybody that, either.
HH: No. I don't want to know that.
LO: Why not? That's much more important.
HH: No, I want to know...
LO: Much more important. I had more than one source on that, Hugh. It was much more important.
HH: You launched a Vice President was drunk meme that got picked up...
LO: No, I didn't. Let me get something straight. I've never said the guy was drunk. I said ask the question. I don't know if he was drunk. I don't know if Ted Kennedy was drunk in Chappaquiddick. You don't, either. I'm sure you believe it as strongly as you believe your religion that Ted Kennedy was drunk at Chappaquiddick. I don't know it.
HH: Again, I'm just...
LO: I suspect it about Chappaquiddick. I don't know anything about the Vice President on Saturday. I asked a question, and that question seems to outrage you.
HH: No. Actually, I'm not outraged. I'm curious as to the lawyers you talked to, because I think it would be a very interesting thing to talk to them, why they would assume Dick Cheney was too drunk to talk?
LO: Because when you leave the scene of an accident, and refuse to talk to the cops as he did Saturday night, your Vice President, who took an oath of office to uphold the laws of this country, refused to talk to the cops after he shot someone, Hugh. Does that bother you?
HH: Larry...
LO: Does that make you wonder?
HH: Larry, every lawyer I've talked to assumes Cheney was too drunk to talk to the cops after the shooting, was the first time that that suggestion, that I can find, made it into print...
LO: Exactly.
HH: And so I...
LO: I get credit for Was Cheney Drunk. Make sure all your audience knows I'm the guy who asked was Cheney drunk, and I forced Fox News into asking him about what his alcohol consumption was that day.
HH: And so...
LO: And now we have an answer. His answer is one beer.
HH: But I would like to talk to these lawyers, and they don't have to be public. You can give me their names off the air if they are afraid of not being public figures...
LO: Hugh, this is an utterly idiotic...
HH: ...but of course, a former United States attorney...
LO: They were guessing. You want to talk to lawyers who were guessing.
HH: Yes, I do. I want to talk to your sources, because Larry, I don't believe you talked to these lawyers. I think you made this up.
LO: Okay.
HH: So can I have the lawyers' names?
LO: No.
HH: All right.
LO: Tell everybody that I made it up.
HH: Now let me ask you, do you think the Secret Service is...
LO: Did I make up the one beer, Hugh?
HH: Do you think the Secret Service...
LO: Did I make up the one beer?
HH: Do you think...
LO: Who told us that?
HH: ...the Secret Service is complicit in lying to the local police?
LO: No, they didn't lie. They simply prevented him from getting there. Do I think they're complicit? Yes.
HH: Do you think the Secret Service is involved in a cover-up, assisting the Vice President?
LO: Yes. I believe they are, yes.
HH: And do you think that's a criminal matter?
LO: No, because the Texas authorities do not assert that any crime as been committed. There is no criminal matter involved, according to the Texas authorities.
HH: Well, if he was drunk as a skunk, as one your colleagues, Jane Hamsher suggested over at the Huffington Post, then they would be participating in a cover-up, wouldn't they?
LO: I don't know. Listen, I don't know what the crime is in Texas if he is drunk. I don't know Texas law.
HH: But you think the Secret Service knew he was drunk and protected him?
LO: No. Hey, stop lying about what I'm saying. Get this straight. Lawrence O'Donnell has no idea, and has never suggested whether or not the Vice President was drunk. I've never said it, and I never will, because we will never know...
HH: Well now, let's pause on that, Lawrence. Let's pause on that.
LO: ...because the Vice President made sure that you weren't going to be able to put a breathalyzer up to his mouth. He made sure of it.
HH: You said we've never...you said just now, you've never suggested that, but of course, the first line in your post is, the L.A. Times is edging closer to the most likely reason for the 18 hour delay.
LO: It is the most likely reason.
HH: That's not suggesting he was drunk?
LO: It is most likely that Ted Kennedy was drunk on Chappaquiddick. That's most likely, but I don't know it.
HH: But Lawrence, you just said you didn't suggest it. In fact, you just...
LO: It's not a fact. A likelihood is not a fact, Hugh. Wake up. You're better than this.
HH: Lawrence, you just said you never suggested he was drunk.
LO: I've never suggested that he was drunk, no. I've suggested it's a likelihood.
HH: And suggesting that he was drunk, and a likelihood that he's drunk...
LO: Hugh, you know the difference between a fact and a likelihood.
HH: And so you're not complicit at all in this meme getting started? You just plucked this out of thin air...
LO: I started the whole thing. Everybody who's jumping on the bandwagon, everybody who's out there, the wild people who go out there and make assertions that Cheney was drunk were all inspired by me, yes. I asked the question, they've turned that into an assertion.
HH: And it's a pretty important part of the story, right?
LO: It could be a very important...it could be the entire story. What you don't know, Hugh, is what is the ballistic evidence of this case? And you know why you don't know it? You're never going to know it. Never, because they didn't let the local authorities get involved, and let the local authorities figure out factually what was the distance of that muzzle from that man's body. All they're using is assertions made by people who were on the scene, some of whom were witnesses, some of whom were not witnesses. You know nothing about this, because the Vice President made sure you know nothing.
HH: Do you think they've swept the site at this point?
LO: What's to sweep? The buckshot is all in the guy?
HH: And so you don't think they've been there to doctor the site...
LO: No.
HH: Have they briefed...
LO: Look.
HH: Do you think they got Mrs. Armstrong to...
LO: There's not criminal investigation whatsoever. None. There is...no criminal investigation has been initiated. If there was one, that man's wounds would be being examined by forensic scientists who would determine for you, was that gun six inches from his face? Was that gun six feet from his face? Was that gun sixty feet from his face? We don't know.
HH: Do you think it was a predicate for examining that?
LO: Pardon me?
HH: Do you think there is a reasonable basis for asking those forensic kinds of questions?
LO: If I was the guy with the gun in my hand, I would want those questions answered. And Hugh, speaking as someone who not only has never been drunk in his life, but has never taken an alcoholic beverage in his life, I for one would be standing in front of the microphone, at that hospital, live at 6:00pm on Saturday night, telling you exactly what I did.
HH: Have you ever been hunting?
LO: Never.
HH: Okay. Have you ever shot a shotgun?
LO: I've never been hunting, I've never been drunk, and I've never had a beer at lunch.
HH: But you've gone to Ivy League football games. Which ones, Lawrence?
LO: Oh, you know, Harvard, Yale, all that stuff.
HH: Are you a Harvard guy?
LO: Yes, I am.
HH: Okay. And so you're basing your suspicion that the Vice President was drunk on Harvard football game tailgating parties?
LO: No. That's just a rhetorical flourish. I'm basing it on this, Hugh. I'm basing it on, I believe the Vice President is very smart. I believe Karl Rove is very, very smart. I believe the President is very smart about a situation like this being brought to him at 7:30PM on a Saturday night. Those three people decided we cannot let this out tonight, and I believe they decided it for a very smart reason.
HH: Larry, why won't you tell me who the lawyers are you talked to, really?
LO: Will you please tell me what that has to do with...how does that help this...
HH: Well, it would go to the credibility of your making...
LO: Here's what I will give you, Hugh.
HH: Yeah.
LO: I will give you the name of every person who knows something factual about this case.
HH: No, I...
LO: I will give you those names.
HH: Larry, the story here is...
LO: They all appear in the newspaper. It's the list of people who were standing there...
HH: The story is...
LO: ...when the Vice President shot someone.
HH: As you filibuster, the story is that the media coverage is part of the story. You're part of that media coverage.
LO: Yeah.
HH: And you made an inflammatory suggesting, implying drunk...
LO: That turned out...And what was the...
HH: ...and you said to me on this air that you talked to five lawyers on Monday.
LO: Sure.
HH: And so, I think your credibility would suffer dramatically...
LO: Right.
HH: ...if you can't come up with five names.
LO: I don't think it would in the least. If you can't find any lawyers who say to you...
HH: It's not about me finding lawyers, it's...
LO: ...avoiding...if you can't find a lawyer to say to you, a criminal lawyer to say to you, avoiding interaction with the local police after shooting someone, avoiding it for a day is a very smart thing to do if you're drunk. And the most people who leave the scene of car accidents are drunk.
HH: And Lawrence...
LO: Your audience knows this, Hugh. You can't fake out your audience.
HH: I'm not. I keep reading the line you wrote, which is...
LO: You know who leaves the scene of car accidents are mostly drunk, okay?
HH: "Every lawyer I've talked to assumes Cheney was too drunk to talk to the cops after the shooting." I talked to a lawyers. I'm a lawyer. I never assumed that for a moment. I was a former DOJ lawyer. I never assumed that for a moment.
LO: Okay.
HH: I think it's crazy to assume that. I don't think anyone told you that. I think you're lying.
LO: I know crazy lawyers. Put it down this way. I know crazy lawyers. So is that the way you want to think about it? Go ahead.
HH: No, you said one of them was a former United States attorney, though.
LO: That's right.
HH: And so, can I have at least that one? That's a public figure. I mean, they obviously...
LO: Not anymore, no. Not when they're former.
HH: No. When you're a United States attorney, you don't stop being...I mean, you're the big guy. You've prosecuted mob bosses if you're the U.S. attorney.
LO: Not necessarily. There's 91 federal districts in the country, Hugh. They don't all hunt mob bosses.
HH: Was it an L.A. former United States attorney? From Los Angeles?
LO: This is very funny to me. This is very, very funny.
