I thought GM had paid us back Libs, another Obama lie?

[Zander]

It's all about semantics for GM supporters.
BOTTOM LINE: GM will end up costing the taxpayers $15- 20 billion or more. How anyone can call that a "resounding success" is beyond me.

 

[boedicca]

And that doesn't count their tax avoidance with their $40B+ of NOLs.

 

[JRK]

PARTISAN, short memories..... sigh

This auto bail out and gm/Chrysler bailout was the doing of president bush, NOT president Obama....president obama had to follow through with what President Bush had already set up to happen.....amazing how for partisan sake, you guys forget and block out the truth....WHY do you guys do that? Why not just give the whole story on what went down, instead of twisting and turning it to put it all, on to who you all consider an enemy, our present president?

WASHINGTON — The emergency bailout of General Motors and Chrysler announced by President Bush on Friday gives the companies a few months to get their businesses in order, but hands off to President-elect Barack Obama the difficult political task of ruling on their future.

The plan pumps $13.4 billion by mid-January into the companies from the fund that Congress authorized to rescue the financial industry. But the two companies have until March 31 to produce a plan for long-term profitability, including concessions from unions, creditors, suppliers and dealers.

In February, another $4 billion will be available for G.M. if the rest of the $700 billion bailout package has been released.
Bush Aids Detroit, but Hard Choices Wait for Obama - NYTimes.com

Stopgap auto bailout to help GM, Chrysler - Dec. 19, 2008

Bush: "Preventing disorderly bankruptcy"

During brief remarks at the White House, President Bush said in normal times he would have not been in favor of preventing a bankruptcy of the two companies. But the current state of the economy and credit markets left him no choice but to act.

"Government has a responsibility to safeguard the broader health and stability of our economy," he said. "If we were to allow the free market to take its course now, it would almost certainly lead to disorderly bankruptcy and liquidation for the automakers."

"In the midst of a financial crisis and a recession, allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action," Bush added.

No-one claimed in this thread that GWB did not LOAN GM money
the thread talked about being paid back and GWB LOANED GM the original monies, did not give them shit
My issue is with that event also, but Bush also made it clear it was a loan, not this we give GM, GMAC 80 billion, 55 on top of the original LOAN GWB gave them
this 180 degrees different
» Bush Announces Bailout for GM, Chrysler-GM Bailout-: Frank discussion on the crisis facing the automotive industry
Bush Announces Bailout for GM, Chrysler
President George W. Bush announced that he would provide low-cost loans to GM and Chrysler, provided that they can create a plan for “viability” in the next three months. Chrysler and GM have said they would have to declare bankruptcy without the loans, with major payments due to suppliers in January that they can’t pay for.
Two of the Big Three will receive $17.4 billion in exchange for certain wage concessions. If at the end of three months the two companies have not submitted a viable plan for stability, the government will “call its loans regardless.” The government can also take 20 percent stakes in the companies in exchange for the loans if it decides to do so. The terms of the loans can be changed by incoming President Barack Obama, since the bailout was done on executive order and not through Congress. Obama said that he agreed with Bush’s move to bail out the auto industry.
General Motors gets a larger chunk of the first bailout outside of the financial industry, $9.4 billion, while Chrysler gets $4 billion.
Why was Ford left out? Ford has said it doesn’t need “immediate assistance” and might be waiting on the sidelines for a relief package from Congress with fewer strings attached.
The billions will come from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Fund (TARP), the “Wall Street bailout” approved with discretion to be doled out by the Treasury. Carmakers will become eligible for $4 billion more in February.
As a condition of the loans, Bush said that auto workers will be forced to accept “competitive” compensation with that of foreign auto companies in the United States. Other conditions are:
-No bonus payments to the top 25 executives
-Bondholders have to swap their bonds for bonds worth much less than the ones they hold, with two-thirds of GM and Chrysler’s debt required to be restructured
-End union benefits that continue to pay laid-off workers’ salaries for two years, called the “jobs bank” program
-Companies must issue new stock to pay for underfunded health funds administered by UAW
These conditions would decimate the value of current carmaker shareholders’ stock.
GM’s CEO, G. Richard Wagoner Jr., said that GM “helped build the country” and that the bailout would allow GM to restructure.
Some questions to ponder:
Will the loans keep Chrysler and GM from declaring bankruptcy or simply postpone the inevitable?
How will the bailout encourage consumers to buy cars when they’re simply not doing so right now?

 

[Meister]

GM paid back the loan. The government still has equity in the company.

^Neither of those is a lie.

Kind of like a pea and shell game, isn't it?

Game?
to start with the damn government has not got one dime in the damn mess
THE TAX PAYER DOES
ITS OUR WEALTH
when did it become my place in life to take money from my pocket to make sure a UAW employee had a job when his/her demands drove the business in the ground?
Why are we not saving the millions of jobs that where lost to the housing bubble?
those people do not have the same amount of need as the employee of GM?

And yes it is a damn lie
they owe us billions and have had billions in tax breaks that we will never see
did you get a tax free year last year?
I as hell sure did not

Get a grip on reality, you support Obama, fine, you support giving tax payers wealth away to people who deserve no better than the person who lost his/her job @ Lehman, fine. Call it what it is and stop lying about the damn thing is paid back

GM was facing chapter 7, GM was done, GM and GMAC got billions while the common person lost everything
Great
and you liberals act like Exxon is the enemy?

Eh...JRK, do you even know what a pea and shell game really is? I've never been called a liberal in my life, I probably am more conservative than you are. I think I need to go hang my head in shame now that I've been called a liberal, probably need a couple of years of professional therapy to get rid of the scar you left behind. Thanks, JRK, just thanks a lot.


What I fear the most is that when and if GM pays back these loans, it will never go towards our deficit, but just on to more spending.

 

[Cuyo]

It's all about semantics for GM supporters.
BOTTOM LINE: GM will end up costing the taxpayers $15- 20 billion or more. How anyone can call that a "resounding success" is beyond me.

I never said I was a supporter or I wasn't! I'm just repeating the facts... (You know, those things you can't really dispute)... Over, and over, and over, and people keep trying to dispute them!

If we sell today at $31.60 we lose about $8B. Whether or not that's worth the hit to manufacturing that was prevented is a matter of dispute, or even opinion (slippery slope et al).

But the point I'm trying to make is that GM doesn't 'Owe' that money. The slice of the GM pie that we owe is ours to do with what we please.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The governerment can sell it's shares at anytime onthe open market. GM does not have to buy the shares back.

So government and corporations merged? Is there a name for that?

Of course the SHARES are GM, the totality of the corporation is the sum of the shares, despite your dishonesty in this.

There are two possibilities, either Obama intends to have a government merger with GM (and Chrysler) in perpetuity, which all of his followers have thus far denied: OR the stock is collateral for money owed the TAXPAYERS.

(You seem to have painted yourself into a corner.)

But then that's already been said....

Do you alway take half quotes just to make shit up?

What did I make up?

 

[boedicca]

No, they are not. GM played a shell game with taxpayer money.

And they were allowed to keep tens of $millions of net operating losses (which should have been voided in the bankruptcy proceedings) meaning they aren't paying taxes.

What a great deal for the Ameri....errrr UNIONS!

Refer to post 52 above.

Bogus accounting, bub.

 

[Uncensored2008]

No. And if you somehow read that into my post you're even dumber than I imagined.

So your claim that without GM there would be no supply chain was ignorant bullshit?

No biggie, everyone here already knew that.

No, and..No. kthx.

Really? So it never crossed your mind that other companies might make a bid for the highly profitable Cadillac and Chevrolet lines, while abandoning the unprofitable Saturn and GM Truck lines?

Your ignorance is purely your own.

 

[Cuyo]

No, they are not. GM played a shell game with taxpayer money.

And they were allowed to keep tens of $millions of net operating losses (which should have been voided in the bankruptcy proceedings) meaning they aren't paying taxes.

What a great deal for the Ameri....errrr UNIONS!

Refer to post 52 above.

Bogus accounting, bub.

Oooooh! Ooooh! YES! I love it when you call people "Bub." Especially... Muah!

Now say it's sophistry. I like when you say everything's sophistry too.

But seriously. Show me where I'm factually incorrect. You can't do it...

 

[Uncensored2008]

Eh...JRK, do you even know what a pea and shell game really is? I've never been called a liberal in my life, I probably am more conservative than you are. I think I need to go hang my head in shame now that I've been called a liberal, probably need a couple of years of professional therapy to get rid of the scar you left behind. Thanks, JRK, just thanks a lot.

Now that right there was funny, I don't care WHO you are!

What I fear the most is that when and if GM pays back these loans, it will never go towards our deficit, but just on to more spending.

The federal government will see pennies on the dollar, what with "net loss carry forward" credits and the shell game being played with the escrow accounts.

Because, while your phrasing was really clever and your reply was funny, JRK is still right, GM is playing a shell game with the debt - which account is the pea in now?

 

[sinister59]

GM's Profits are Still a Huge Net Loss For Taxpayers - Megan McArdle - Business - The Atlantic
This is a good story and a very bad event.
The GOP is going to have a field day with this stuff in 2012

I know most bank did I thought GM did to

 

[8537]

Further evidence that leftists have no concept of business.

So in your alleged mind, Ford and GM both go down to "Transmissions R Us" and pick up parts off the shelf to put cars together?

No. And if you somehow read that into my post you're even dumber than I imagined.

Also, do you think their is any chance Toyota, Hyundai or Ford might have actually bought GM? In fact, wasn't the REAL fear that Hyundai was going to buy them and run it as a non-union company?

No, and..No. kthx.

You know you can take that mother fucker picture of our president and put it where the sun does not shine
You have no class and I wish you would stay away from any thread I start.

You, sir, are one angry motherfucker. You can get help for that, ya know. You don't have to live your life full of rage.

You don't have to remain drunk and stupid, either - by morning, you can sober up.

 

[8537]

No. And if you somehow read that into my post you're even dumber than I imagined.

So your claim that without GM there would be no supply chain was ignorant bullshit?

No biggie, everyone here already knew that.

Let me give you a free lesson: There's more to a supply chain than where GM bought transmissions.

Your posts remain ignorant bullshit - at least we can agree on that.

Really? So it never crossed your mind that other companies might make a bid for the highly profitable Cadillac and Chevrolet lines, while abandoning the unprofitable Saturn and GM Truck lines?

Let me see...um....err....Well, they did go it bankruptcy, uncensored.
Do you recall any hostile takeover attempts?

 

[bripat9643]

Nope.

100% unmitigated success.

The United States was on the verge of losing it's auto manufacturing base.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't mean the factories disappear in a puff of smoke. They just acquire new owners.

What we would have lost if GM and Chrysler had rightfully been forced to declare bankruptcy is a gang of fat overpaid union thugs holding us up for ransom. Only the gullible wanted to put these vermin on the government payroll.

 

[8537]

Nope.

100% unmitigated success.

The United States was on the verge of losing it's auto manufacturing base.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't mean the factories disappear in a puff of smoke. They just acquire new owners.

What we would have lost if GM and Chrysler had rightfully been forced to declare bankruptcy is a gang of fat overpaid union thugs holding us up for ransom. Only the gullible wanted to put these vermin on the government payroll.

Ah, britpat? You know that GM declared bankruptcy right? June 1, 2009.

Please do keep up.

 

[bripat9643]

From what I read GM took other TARP money to pay back the loan.

Does that mean they payed back whats owed to the taxpayers??

Don't think so.

GM and Chrysler still owe the taxpayers $80 billion. That will never get paid back. And the bond holders will never get paid back. That money isn't even being counted.

What occurred with this episode is a huge transfer of wealth to overpaid union slobs who earn far above the income of most of the taxpayers footing the bill.

That is the most egregious example of reverse class warfare ever perpetrated.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Allegedly.

Why does it matter?

You just cant hijack businesses like that - if they fail they fail - if they float they don't.

GM was NEVER the governments business...

 

[Mr.Nick]

Then libs get all bent when Obama is labeled a socialist???

 

[bripat9643]

The GOP is going to have a field day with this stuff in 2012

As long as they don't leave out the part that George W Bush was the one who started the ball rolling. But never mind, it was the right decision to make and I give Bush credit for starting it and Obama for seeing it through.

.

It was the swindle of the century.

Bush was resoundingly condemned by his own party for even considering it.

Obama made it clear that the Democrat Party is the looter party. It loots the middle class for the benefit of all their loyal constituents sucking on the government tit.

 

[bripat9643]

Nope.

100% unmitigated success.

The United States was on the verge of losing it's auto manufacturing base.

That "equity" is about as valuable as an account with Bernie Madoff's investment firm.