I Need Help

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by OCA, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. OCA
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    OCA Senior Member

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    I got me a freako lib around here who has been saying that dimebag would be alive today if it wasn't for our stupid 2nd amendment right to bear arms. Now I know there was a country, was it Australia? That banned guns and their crime rate went through the roof after the citizenry was unable to protect itself, is this true? Was it Australia? I can't find jack on google.

    Any help would be appreciated or if somnebody has something on file they could share so I can give the smackdown to this weakkneed lib.
     
  2. Mr. P
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    Mr. P Senior Member

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    I got a stat for ya..here in The U.S.
    I'll get it..
     
  3. JOKER96BRAVO
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    JOKER96BRAVO Senior Member

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    WHO DARES TO TALK SHIT ABOUT DIMEBAG?????
     
  4. Mr. P
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    Mr. P Senior Member

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    A few facts for ya...Check the link..

    * Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

    "lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

    * When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

    * Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

    http://justfacts.com/gun_control.htm
     
  5. OCA
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    OCA Senior Member

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    Lol no he wasn't baggin on dimebag just saying the typical "if there weren't any guns this wouldn't have happened" and "look at all the crap like Columbine and all this other stuff, doesn't happen anywhere else" bullshit.

    Like this idiot couldn't have shanked dimebag or burned the place down or threw a little homemade bomb on the stage.
     
  6. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    England actually is the country you are thinking about, OCA. They banned all handguns after a school shooting in 1998(?). Crime has skyrocketed.
     
  7. JOKER96BRAVO
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    JOKER96BRAVO Senior Member

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    No gun laws would make for a very successful blackmarket.
     
  8. OCA
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    OCA Senior Member

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    Ok thats a start, thanks.
     
  9. TheEnemyWithin
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    I can't back you up with any actual events but here is a simple argument to pose to this freako lib. (Redundant!) Four main points:

    1. Robbing a bank is against the law.
    2. Banks are robbed in spite of the law.
    3. If guns are against the law, will a criminal pay attention?
    4. Criminals pay no attention to the bank-robbing law, so
    what makes anyone think that a law will keep guns out of the hands
    of thugs? They break the law!! That's why they're called thugs!!

    :firing: !!!GUNS 4 EVER!!! :firing:
     
  10. Merlin1047
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    Merlin1047 Senior Member

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    Here's a good article on Britain's crime stats:
    http://www.claytoncramer.com/Britain.pdf

    Here's another, although it's pretty tedious but it includes some graphs and stats.

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/review.pdf

    One more:

    http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

    "* Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."2
    * Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3
    * England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.4 "
    ==================================

    Here's an excerpt from the Aussie experience with gun control It is an exchange of letters between a gun control advocate and the president of the Aussie equivalent of the NRA:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39b03f005859.htm

    Constitution Opinion (Published) Keywords: SECOND AMENDMENT
    Source: Received via e-mail
    Published: August 2000 Author: Ron Owen, President, Firearm Owners Of Australia
    Posted on 09/01/2000 16:42:56 PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
    Dear Mr Owen

    The 1996 national gun laws have been shown in research to have significantly reduced the level of gun related crime in this country. The number of offences where a gun has been used has decreased significantly. Guns were used in 18.6% of armed robberies in 1998-99, compared with 26.8% the year before.

    As a result of the national gun laws 640,000 guns were collected and destroyed. It is not only murder rates that have fallen, but all firearm related deaths. Total firearm related deaths in Australia fell from 523 in 1996 to 328 in 1998.

    The guns targeted in 1996 were those that a member of our community had little justification in owning. The Government of South Australia took the view that the safety of our community was under threat by these weapons and took action to address this situation.

    The studies you have referred to ignore the high level of gun violence in the United States in comparison with Australia. The easy availability of guns directly relates to the level of gun violence. The Government of South Australia considers the responsibility of owning a gun a serious one, and has sought to make the conditions of ownership strict. Responsible gun owners have nothing to fear from the national gun laws. The community is safer because of them.

    Yours sincerely

    JOHN OLSEN
    Premier (the equivalent of Governor in the US), South Australia

    To Premier of South Australia

    John Olsen

    In reply to your letter dated 2/5/2000, Ref Number 00P01231

    From Mr Ron Owen, National President,

    Firearm Owners Association of Australia

    Dear Mr Olsen

    Reading your letter and considering the amount of well researched information that has already been dispatched to your office, and the breadth, of the research information within the Parliamentary libraries in Australia, the only conclusions I can deduce from your correspondence is that you are either an ignoramus or a charlatan. You either cannot read or cannot be bothered to read or really know the truth and still ignore it.

    When you say, "The 1996 national gun laws have been shown in research to have significantly reduced the level of gun related crime in this country". You omit to say, whose research it is and what that research was. We are left in the dark as to what figures and where those figures are from, that you consider to be significant. Are they figures concocted by public service staff left over from the ‘Buy Back fiasco’ as usual ,trying to justify their past failures as public looters and parasites.

    On the other hand we understand you have already received the following information in detail:-

    "The environment is more violent and dangerous than it was some time ago."

    Police Commissioner South Australia Mal Hyde 23/12/99 - The Advertiser - Adelaide

    Robbery with a firearm increased nearly 60 per cent over the previous financial year.

    South Australian Police Annual Report - tabled in State Parliament 27/10/98

    "I apologise for the error (in Attorney-General's letter to SSAA (Sporting Shooter's Association of Australia) member) that was made in extracting the ABS figures."

    Dianne Gray - Senior Legal Officer - SA Attorney-General's Department - 27/1/99

    To SSAA Researcher Paul Peake after it was claimed by the SA AG's Department that SSAA figures were wrong.

    When you say, "The number of offences where a gun has been used has decreased significantly. Guns were used in 18.6% of armed robberies in 1998-99, compared with 26.8% the year before" You are discredited. by:-

    "Media Release: Australian Bureau of Statistics - Recorded Crime in Australia Release Date: July 15th, 1998

    Police in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia and Western Australia all recorded an increase in the rate of armed robbery.

    The largest increase (+ 63%) occurred in New South Wales. However the increases in some other States were also quite substantial.

    Victoria recorded an increase in the rate of armed robbery of 38%, Queensland recorded an increase of 34%, South Australia recorded an increase of 10% and Western Australia recorded an increase of 7%.

    Commenting on these figures, the Director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, Dr Don Weatherburn, said that "they suggested that the underlying causes of the upward trend in property crime in New South Wales were probably national rather than State-based."

    Abbreviations
    AIC - Australian Institute of Criminology
    ABS - Australian Bureau of Statistics
    "Crime involving guns is on the rise despite tougher laws. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39% in 1997 while assaults involving guns rose 28% and murders by 19%. (ABS figures) "Gun crime soars.." - Sydney Morning Herald - 28/10/98

    "AIC define robbery as unlawful taking of property, accompanied by force or threat of force"

    In 1998 8% were committed with a firearm, 38 % with another weapon, and 54 % unarmed

    There were 10850 armed robberies recorded in Australia in 1998. This represents almost a 20% increase from the number of armed robberies recorded in 1997.

    In 1013 robberies the type of weapon was not further defined, This figure was included in the category ‘Other Weapon’. It is possible that this 9% used in these robberies were firearms.

    Armed Robberies have increased by 69% from 1995".

    Crime involving guns has soared despite tougher laws imposed after the Port Arthur massacre...the number of robberies involving guns leapt 39% (ABS Report)...assaults involving guns jumped 28%.

    Armed Crime on rise -The Sunday Mail - Brisbane 18/10/98

    According to ABS figures, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in NSW rose from 827 in 1996 to 1252 in 1997.

    Sunday Telegraph - Sydney - 14/3/98

    "National gun laws and the destruction of 640,000 firearms under the buyback scheme appear to have done little to reduce the national murder rate, says a new study.

    Research paper issued by the AIC on the affect of the new gun laws. The Age - 3/6/99"

    Queensland Police Commissioner Jim O'Sullivan yesterday expressed "grave concern" as the number of armed robberies across the state took a big jump for the second year running.

    Sunshine Coast Daily - 13/11/98

    Fatal shootings in Victoria have increased despite the introduction of tighter gun laws in 1996, a (AIC) study has found.

    " State's gun deaths rise" - Herald Sun - Victoria - 3/6/99

    The number of Victorians murdered with firearms has almost trebled since the introduction of tighter gun laws.
    =====================================

    Snopes does not agree with that assessment. Although their so-called "rebuttal" is shot through with tap dancing and equivocation, you should be aware of this piece as well. Even though snopes obviously attempts to support the gun control side, they show their bias on this issue at the end when they state:

    The ABS does report that the number of assaults on victims aged 65 and over has increased over the last few years, but hardly in a proportion one would describe as "dramatic":

    http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

    Number of victims of assault aged 65 and over:
    1996 - 1474
    1997 - 1662 (12.8% increase from previous year)
    1998 - 1663 (0.06% increase from previous year)
    1999 - 1793 (7.8% increase from previous year)
    =======================================
    7.8 percent is a pretty "dramatic" increase by any reasonable definition.

    Snopes attempts to call into question the reliability of using percentages to show an increase in crime, then turns right around and uses percentages as a part of their position that certain types of crime have decreased.
     

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