I have seen the enemy, and he is us.

[Pappadave]

It's time to face reality. Our attempts to regulate and protect the environment are at least partially based on a false premise. No activity by man can be performed and not have an impact (harm) on our environment. We cannot individually or especially collectively live in this environment and not cause harm. The only way to achieve that is to vacate the premises.

Let's look at an example logically. I have a business that manufactures a product to meet the demands of the market. For those of you who don't know, the market is us. I have no choice but to produce a waste stream to make the product. It doesn't really matter what that waste stream is, it just is. I have three choices; air, water, land. The rules and regulations in essence demand "Thou shall do no harm". Reality tells me my only choice is to do the least harm. The regulations that apply to my business are not applied to the society as a whole. Most of these rules don't apply to household waste even though that waste stream generated 50% of the degradation of the environment when these rules and regulations were promulgated. The only way to fully comply with these regulations is to close the doors. Do I have an obligation to reduce my impact on the environment to the best possible minimum? Of course. Can I achieve perfection? Can you?

Can we demand perfection ("Thou shall do no harm" by rules and regulation? Can we dictate the impossible? Can society achieve perfection simply by demanding it? I think not. If you can accept that any segment of our society is no worse or better than the rest of us, that industry is no more "evil" than the rest of us, maybe its time to revisit this arena and establish realistic and achievable standards based on reality not wishes. And when and if we do, let's make them apply to all of us that "harm" the environment. Note to self: That would include everybody, not just "evil" business and industry.

If we truly want to restore the environment to the "Garden of Eden", we all have to leave the planet. I'm willing if all the rest of you are. Ready to start packing? Peace, Love, and Faith. Pappadave.

 

[uscitizen]

Perfection no. Improve things yes. Water quality has greatly improved in the last 40 years in the USA.

But then just because we cannot achieve perfection we abandon all.

got a zit on your nose? But you have been washing your nose?
Well just stop washing your nose?

 

[Mr Natural]

As the saying goes: "Don't sacrifice the good for the great."

 

[Pappadave]

I don't recall saying abandon. In fact in some areas we need stronger regs (carcinogens, mutagens, etc. Bur we also need to make them realistic and achievable and apply them to all equally. Screw everybody the same and keep trying to develop processes (and lifestyles) that do no harm to our environment. Likely we will never get there, but we can make continual advances to that goal. Rules and regulation must be grounded in reality and be achievable, not based on emotion and what we want (wish). Peace, Love, and Faith. Pappadave.

 

[strollingbones]

john knowles 'a separate peace'

 

[Mr. H.]

Papsmeardave, sounds like you and I are in the same boat re: manufacturing. According to most of the public and almost all of Washington D.C., the best solution is for my business to disappear. Let's go away and leave humanity to fend for itself. I'll bring the vodka.

 

[Old Rocks]

There are many ways of achieving a goal. The one sure way not to acheive that goal is to just state that it is too difficult, and why bother.

Once, we thought that dumping a cities sewer into the river was just fine. Much to difficult to do anything differant. We have found that it is not that difficult, a sure a lot nicer river if we do not do that. Same for manufacturing. Many of the environmentally destructive practices of the past have been changed, and we are better for it.

Now, I see where you are heading this. Much too difficult to change our electric production from coal to alternatives, nuclear, wind, solar, and geothermal. However, wind is now cheaper than dirty coal. Solar will be shortly. Geothermal, according to a MIT study should be even cheaper. Transportation? All we lack is the a battery or capacitor for long range travel, we have adaquete batteries for short range, 100 miles or less, right now. Look up the RAV4 Electric.

 

[Mr. H.]

So, wind solar and geothermal are without waste streams?

Also would you propose to put myself and Pappasan out of business in order to fund such alternatives?

 

[westwall]

There are many ways of achieving a goal. The one sure way not to acheive that goal is to just state that it is too difficult, and why bother.

Once, we thought that dumping a cities sewer into the river was just fine. Much to difficult to do anything differant. We have found that it is not that difficult, a sure a lot nicer river if we do not do that. Same for manufacturing. Many of the environmentally destructive practices of the past have been changed, and we are better for it.

Now, I see where you are heading this. Much too difficult to change our electric production from coal to alternatives, nuclear, wind, solar, and geothermal. However, wind is now cheaper than dirty coal. Solar will be shortly. Geothermal, according to a MIT study should be even cheaper. Transportation? All we lack is the a battery or capacitor for long range travel, we have adaquete batteries for short range, 100 miles or less, right now. Look up the RAV4 Electric.

Wind power is only competitive with massive amounts of governemnt subsidy. Which means it's not competitive. Yes, yes I know iowa is producing 20%of its electricity with wind, but it is only able to keep the costs down because of Federal grants. Will this change in the future? Hopefully, but so far wind is subsidised by those who use fossil fuels.

Solar is definately coming along and I live in a state that should be exclusivly powered by geothermal. But, until the transformational work is done, fossil fuels are essential. And old fraud your RAV4 electric uses 4 TIMES the amount of energy to go an equivalent distance to a good ICE powered vehicle.