I have mentioned trillion times

[aqeelabbas]

That its a problem of society ;women abuse not ISLAM..
So stop posting this under MUSLIM thread and create a new one by the name of SOCIETY PROBLEMS

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by aqeelabbas
That its a problem of society ;women abuse not ISLAM..
So stop posting this under MUSLIM thread and create a new one by the name of SOCIETY PROBLEMS

The articles/videos/new reports are about Muslim women.
The men involved are in FACT Muslim.
Society does have it's problems, but what we're talking about is in fact MUSLIMS.

Sorry if you don't like it, and I'm sure the good Muslims outrank what we're currently discussing. But, you cannot sit here and say these aren't Muslim people abusing their wives and citing Muslim rituals as their defense.

We are not talking about the abuse of women as a whole, we are discussing the problem and how it is prominent amongst Muslim women.

So how about YOU start a new thread if you would like to generalize, I think we've been quite specific.

 

[Dawoud]

im no expert

But a few thoughts, Yes jimnyc there is alot of abuse of women in Muslim countrys and it is indefensible. Islam needs to address these problems very very much . But that doesn't mean every Muslim male is a woman abuser.
much of this is cultural some brought on by a very narrow interpetation of the Quran. I personally blame the wahabbi sect(should i say cult?)who control Saudi Arabia and finance most of the Mosques around the world , including the USA for alot of the problems. As we say in Texas Muslims need to muck out their own barn first.

But do this I just did and it was pretty interesting, do a google search and type in.
"christian abuse of women"


and read what comes up

 

[jimnyc]

Yes jimnyc there is alot of abuse of women in Muslim countrys and it is indefensible. Islam needs to address these problems very very much . But that doesn't mean every Muslim male is a woman abuser.

I don't think I've stated otherwise. What I stated is basically the same thing you just have, that there is a great deal of abuse amongst Muslim women and it needs to be fixed.

But do this I just did and it was pretty interesting, do a google search and type in.
"christian abuse of women"

Will that tell me anything about Muslim men or women? If not, why would I do such a search if it has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic of discussion?

 

[Robert Espy]

Originally posted by Dawoud
But do this I just did and it was pretty interesting, do a google search and type in.
"christian abuse of women"
and read what comes up

Done. Here's what I got...

Your search - "christian abuse of women" - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.

 

[Dawoud]

Robert
I went to google typed in
christian abuse of women

http://www.abuseofwomen.org/thesis_sec2.html

http://www.abuseofwomen.org/links.html

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rossi1.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9702/10/pakistan.women/

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00648.html


and on and on there were 10 pages of websites

 

[jimnyc]

And I just typed in "mouse abuse of dogs" and got 10+ pages of results. But, thats not on topic here, and neither are your references to Christians. Please keep the Muslim forum to discussion about Muslims.

 

[Amras]

Fatawas Regarding Women

This document has been written by muslims for muslims. I had no idea how totalitarian religion can be, till I first heard about Fatawas!
If there are any muslims that read this, I just would like to know if they and their familys live by such a code of conduct.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Dawoud
Robert
I went to google typed in
christian abuse of women

http://www.abuseofwomen.org/thesis_sec2.html

http://www.abuseofwomen.org/links.html

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rossi1.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9702/10/pakistan.women/

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00648.html

and on and on there were 10 pages of websites

abuseofwomen.org is a Christian site designed to prevent the abuse of women. Womenpriests.org i one I haven't researched much, but the link you pointed to dealt mostly with someone's Fruedian psychoanalysis of St. Augustine and their interpretation of the Bible as woman-hating. The mail-archive.com link pointed to a Christian organization that is trying to keep women form being enslaved in sex-trafficking operations. And the CNN.com story talks about women from all different religions.

I have yet to meet any Christian who uses the Bible or his religion to advocate the abuse of his wife. In fact, the Bible teaches that we should love and respect our wives, just like we would love and respect ourselves.

 

[dijetlo]

Did you read this link?

I'm still looking for the material you mentioned, where does it say it is OK to beat your wife?

>>This document has been written by muslims for muslims.<<
It was written for muslems by the Islamic Students Association at the University of Houston.

>>I had no idea how totalitarian religion can be, till I first heard about Fatawas!<<

Your unfamiliar with the Catholic religion? Papal Bulls? In Islam, any Imam can issue a fatwah, your looking at the fatwah this guy believes in enforcing. I mean, imagine if Night Train was an Imam, he'd be screaming for rivers of infidel blood, and issuing fatwahs right and left to try to get it.

 

[5stringJeff]

How on earth are you supposed to know to follow all that stuff? And what happens when one fatawa is different from someone elses fatawa? Can you pick and choose?

Originally posted by dijetlo
Did you read this link?

>>This document has been written by muslims for muslims.<<
It was written for muslems by the Islamic Students Association at the University of Houston.

>>I had no idea how totalitarian religion can be, till I first heard about Fatawas!<<

Your unfamiliar with the Catholic religion? Papal Bulls? In Islam, any Imam can issue a fatwah, your looking at the fatwah this guy believes in enforcing. I mean, imagine if Night Train was an Imam, he'd be screaming for rivers of infidel blood, and issuing fatwahs right and left to try to get it.

 

[dijetlo]

>>How on earth are you supposed to know to follow all that stuff?<<
If it is your religion, I'm sure that makes it easier.

>> And what happens when one fatawa is different from someone elses fatawa?<<

There are two main sects of Islam, three if you count wahabbi, so fatwas often contradict. In the end, it depends on the individual beleiver, some people are slavishly loyal to their Imam, most are not. The counter argument to that though is that the most extreme Imams collect the most extreme individuals as their followers.

>> Can you pick and choose?<<

Within certain limits. If you're a young man living in Baghdad and your Imam is preaching holy war, the pressure for you to get involved is significantly higher than if you live in Sri Lanka. For almost all the muslems living in the middle east, the Mosque community is their society, it's everyone they interact with on a daily basis so the peer pressure can become intense. I've heard several commentaries to the effect that the reason "Islamic States" are on the rise in the ME is because the only place you can talk politics (and not get a visit from the local secret police) is in the mosque. Most of their grassroots political leaders are either Imams or ardent followers, the rest of the political discourse has been visciously suppressed.

 

[dijetlo]

>> Can you pick and choose?<<

After re-reading my reply, I think I might have been unresponsive to this question.
In short, it depends on the fatwa. I'm not an expert on Islam but I would think a fatwa like
"In honor of the blessed profit, everyone will wear a leek upon their cap on thursday the 23rd " Ought to be listened too. If you aint got your leek, everyone will see.
" You must abstain from carnal pleasure for the month of Ramadan "
If your wife has a baby nine months after Ramadan, I'm sure everybody just grins. After all, even we know what it takes a cow and countess nine months to due, a blushing bride can do in six, right?

 

[5stringJeff]

I guess my question now becomes, on what basis are the fatawas given? Is it on the authority of the Koran/hadith, or is it up to the imams? If it's up to the imam, and if you don't wear your leek and everyone notices, so what? Is there any kind of checks and balance system within Islam? What if an imam issued a fatawa that was contrary to the Koran?

I realize you might not be an expert on the subject, dijetlo, but any answers you (or others) have would be helpful - I'm only somewhat familiar with the Koran, and not at all familiar with the practical workings of Islam.

 

[dijetlo]

>> on what basis are the fatawas given? Is it on the authority of the Koran/hadith, or is it up to the imams?<<
Ultimately, it's the Koran. The confusion comes in the accompanying philosophies and competing interpretations (if your Christian your familiar with the same tussle constantly going on over what a particular passage in the bible might mean).
Their is an Imam Heiarchy, in the case of the Sunnis I think it terminates at Ayatollah, but again, I'm not certain of that.

(Def: Ayatollah Source
A high-ranking Shiite religious authority regarded as worthy of imitation in matters of religious law and interpretation.)

>> If it's up to the imam, and if you don't wear your leek and everyone notices, so what?<<

It isn't really the Imam that will punish you, it is the community. In the 50s' if a single girl had a baby in a small town, what kind of community pressure would the "right thinking" people of the town try to bring to bear on her? It works along those lines. I don't think muslems would equate the two infractions, by the way, the leek thing would probably get a snicker from most folks, a few would get their nose out of joint over it, just like us.

>>What if an imam issued a fatawa that was contrary to the Koran?<<
They normaly are based on an interpretation of a portion of their scripture.

>>I realize you might not be an expert on the subject<<
I appreciate the consideration, your right, I'm not an expert on this subject. I would love to an arab explain the relationship between the Imams and how the power structure maintains a coherent religion when their seem to be so few restrictions on doctrine.
The thing to remember about arab, muslems, et. al. is they are just like us. If it weren't for an accident of birth, you and I would be conversing in farsee.
By the way...
Fatwas are not all that common, very few clerics ever write a Fatwa. They are more likely to write or speak on behalf of one or against it.

 

[Amras]

It was written for muslems by the Islamic Students Association at the University of Houston

That's wrong. The primary source for this document is located in the header.

"This internet edition of the hard-bound book with the name "Islamic Fatawa Regarding Women" compiled by Muhammed al-Musnad and translated by Jamal Zarabozo constitutes only a part of the entire book" (w00t, there are even more rules?!)

That book was published by the saudi Dar-us-Salam Publications. We are talking about Wahabi Fatawas. In the 18th century Mohamed el Wahab founded a sect of muslims which interpretate the Quran in a very strict way.

I'm still looking for the material you mentioned, where does it say it is OK to beat your wife?

I never said that muslims beat their wifes, but I don't think that abuse has to be physical either. This definetely doesn't apply to all Fatawas but some are abusive, and some are very oppressive. I'll give you an exampel from my source.

Question: I have been married for about 25 years. I have numerous sons and daughters. I always face difficulties from my husband. He humiliates me in front of my children, close relatives and others. He never gives me any credit. The only time I feel rest is when I leave the house, although he does pray and he fears Allah. Please guide me to the best path I should follow.

Response: It is obligatory upon you to have patience and to advise him to act in the best way. Remind him of Allah and the Hereafter. Perhaps he will respond and return to what is correct. Perhaps he will give up his evil behavior. If he does not, the sin is upon him and you will get a great reward for your patience and bearing his harm...

Yeah, right.

Or how's this:

Ruling Concerning Women Driving Automobiles

All praises are due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his Companions and all who follow his guidance. To proceed:

There have been numerous questions concerning the ruling of women driving automobiles. The response is the following:

There is no doubt that such is not allowed. Women driving leads to many evils and negative consequences. Included among these is her mixing with men without her being on her guard. It also leads to the evil sins due to which such an action is forbidden. The Pure Law forbids those acts that lead to forbidden acts and considers those means to be forbidden also. Allah has ordered the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the women of the believers to remain in their houses, to wear hijab and not to display their adornments to non-mahram males as that leads to promiscuity that overruns a society. Allah has stated,

"Stay in your houses and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance and offer prayer perfectly and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger" (al-Ahzab 33)...

Well a last one:

Question: What is the ruling concerning a woman going out to the marketplace without her husband's permission?

Response: If a woman wants to leave her husband's house, she may inform him of where she wants to go and he may permit her to go there as long as it is not someplace where harm is expected, as he is most knowledgeable of what is in her best interest. This is based on the generality of Allah's statement,

"And they (women) have rights similar to [those] over them according to what is reasonable, but men have a degree [of responsibility] over them'' (al-Baqara 228).

And Allah's statement,

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other" (aI-Nisa 34).



There are quite a few more examples that show that in a society where the men adopt such rules (would it be accurate to say laws?), the women are under total control and there is no way out.

Your unfamiliar with the Catholic religion? Papal Bulls?

I am catholic and catholics love the pope, but most catholics listen to what he says, we nod, and then we do the opposite thing. They lost their power some while ago.

 

[Amras]

Btw. djetlo, Gop_Jeff that conversation between you is most interesting

 

[NightTrain]

I mean, imagine if Night Train was an Imam, he'd be screaming for rivers of infidel blood, and issuing fatwahs right and left to try to get it.

LMAO!

Wow, do I come off as a bloodthirsty bastard? I'm actually a pretty nice guy... I wouldn't demand rivers, several streams would suffice.

 

[dijetlo]

>> (w00t, there are even more rules?!)<<
You said you were Catholic, didn't you?

>> He humiliates me in front of my children, close relatives and others<<
>>Response: It is obligatory upon you to have patience and to advise him to act in the best way. <<
As it would be for a devout catholic who is not allowed the option of divorce.

>>I am catholic and catholics love the pope, but most catholics listen to what he says, we nod, and then we do the opposite thing<<
In america that is true. In other parts of "christendom" it is not and the Papl bulls are law, at least spiritual law.

>>the women are under total control and there is no way out.<<
Muslem women in the US overwhelmingly marry Muslem men. They apparenlty don't want out. This is their culture (which they're slowly changing) they don't find it nearly as restrictive as you do. Except in a few extreme societies, women are not confined to the mode of dress by law, they chose to wear it (or not wear it). Take a look at a picture of an Iraqi crowd, now how many women are wearing veils?

A lot of the mans "responisibility" for the woman comes from the culture on the arab penninsula. Arabs lived in a tribal society up to the early 1900s' when the British Empire forced them into "states". Raiding each other for wealth (and that included women) was common. A man might have to "defend" his daughters/wifes honor with his life. Have daughters of my own, I can understand the motivation. Ahkmed tell his wife...
"...so lets not advertise the fact she's built like a mudbrick shithouse, O.K. Put her in that pototo sack and for gods sake cover her face before every horny 16 year in the cursed (name enemy tribe) shows up at our front door with a sword in his hand to match the one in his trousers."