CDZ I don't know whether Hodgkinson actually sought to kill someone.

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Xelor, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Stasha_Sz
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    Stasha_Sz Gold Member

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    Hi Xelor, I am afraid that your inquiry has a few built in fallacies that render an answer to your satisfaction nearly impossible to give. Firstly, you only want a "professional" to answer. A professional marksman? Those rare birds are generally only found in the serving military. I doubt there are many, if any amongst our posters on USMB. A professional psychiatrist? A psychiatrist would not give an off the cuff opinion on the sanity of a person under any circumstance without a one on one evaluation, not counting again the fact that there are probably none here. The only person that can speak to motivations of the shooter was the shooter himself, and he will shortly be pushing up the daisies. His cookie crumb trail speaks to his desire to kill.

    That all being said, I believe I can shed a bit of illumination on the thought process of the shooter through his selection of weapons.
    There are two main popular types of "assault rifles" available on the market commercially.
    1) Kalashnikov types based on the AK family
    2) Stoner types based on the M16 family (AR)

    Please keep in mind that other than visually, there are very few similarities between a commercial version of either of these weapons and those used on the battlefield.

    Both types of weapons were developed as a result of real world feedback regarding the use of individual firearms on the battlefields of WWII. The traditional military rifle, the bolt-action, was a reliable, robust weapon that could theoretically hit targets up to a 1000 meters away. One shot at a time, with a full sized, heavy cartridge. During the war it was discovered that soldiers were not engaging targets at ranges much beyond 300 meters or less. Further it was learned that well aimed single shots were not as effective as volume of fire. The full sized cartridge was in fact too powerful.
    Thus the Germans developed the first "assault rifle", the STG44, the grand-daddy of all modern military rifles. Gas operated, special small cartridge, stamped metal components.
    The requirements:
    1) Portability
    2) Volume of fire
    3) Ammunition load-out
    4) Economy of manufacture
    5) Economy of maintenance
    6) Accuracy
    Please note that these are not in any particular order, indeed, which requirement that was considered the "key" by each designer plays an important part in my conclusions.

    The Kalashnikov variants, in true Russian fashion, rely on economy of manufacture and maintenance followed by volume of fire as the main requirements. Accuracy, not so much. They were designed to be operated by illiterate grunts after being drug through the mud and dust for days without cleaning. They make up for lack of accuracy with a greater rate of fire and they fire an heavier round with more ballistic energy. They tend to cause through and through wounds. Russian doctrine: saturate an area with fire, close for the kill. Finally, they are inexpensive.

    The Stoner variants are a whole different animal, despite coming from the same requirements. The M16 series call for portability, ammunition load out and accuracy as the most important requirements. The US Army, while agreeing that realistic battlefield ranges were only 300 meters, they still wanted to be able to hit that target at that range. Thus the M16 series were built with tighter tolerances with lighter weight components to fire the smaller round designed for it. They tend to cause more grievous non through and through wounds. US doctrine: destroy the target at a distance. Finally, they are expensive.

    Now, both types are commercially available in civilian versions. The AK's are much cheaper than the AR's. One is just as plentiful as the other. The AR is much more portable and a lot more accurate than the AK.

    Therefore, presuming the shooter was not a total loon, if all he wanted to do was spray lead without hitting anyone or anything, he would have more likely chosen an AK over the AR. He wanted to hit and kill, thus requiring the more accurate weapon.
    Despite Hollywood's enamorment with "assault rifles" hitting and killing anything they are pointed at, hitting a man-sized moving target is no easy thing at any distance. The victims were lucky this man was apparently a poor shot, because his weapon was capable of delivering a body count.

    My conclusion: he wanted kills, a lot of them too.
     
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  2. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    He was a bad shot, and had never tried to kill human beings before......he picked an open field.....and shot from a distance....unlike the orlando shooter who trapped his victims in a confined space where over penetration would have helped hit more than one person....and where they couldn't get away from him......



    Guns are not death rays...you have to aim them and have the mental calm to shoot while under fire, as this guy was when the security detail fired back at him.....

    These rifles, with magazines, have been used to murder 167 people.........in 34 years......there are over 8 million of them in private hands......

    knives are used to murder 1,500 people every single year.....
     
  3. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    He fired a rifle in the direction of human beings......he had the intent to kill.....
     
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  4. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    Add into that equation the Whip's security detail was shooting back..........mass public shooter may even practice shooting, they can't practice getting shot at......this is the one aspect that anti-gunners don't understand......armed reponses to mass shooters saves lives...it forces the shooter to divide his attention, and prevents them from shooting well...saving lives......

    They are so lucky the Whip was there, had he not been there, no one would have been armed....
     
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  5. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    Nope. The kind of professional who can (1) accurately discern what the theme and topic of the OP is and (2) therefore tell that the theme/topic falls into his/her area of expertise. The last sentence of the first bullet point of the OP's preface is sufficient for any professional to know whether their specific expertise is germane to the topic I've presented. I will be able to tell whether their area of professional expertise is germane to the topic, theme, and/or questions based on nature and extent of scholarly theoretical content they note and then apply to the situation under discussion.
     
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  6. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    That's okay for such an individual would also recognize that an "off the cuff opinion on the sanity" of anyone isn't what I requested.

    Well, that's also okay for that's also not what I solicited.
     
  7. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I have to finish reading your remarks; however, so I have the correct context in mind, how do either of those two weapons correspond to the description I've thus far seen of the weapon, that being "like an M4?" All that, along with "M16" and "AK family" means to me is:
    • Rifle not handgun/pistol
    • Semi-automatic or automatic
    • Fires bullets at a high velocity compared to some other fire arms.
    I'm going to await your reply to the comment above for I don't want to read about AKs and M16s only to later find out that they are materially different from an M4.
     
  8. Divine.Wind
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    Divine.Wind Platinum Member

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    Dude, I have little doubt Hodgkinson was mentally ill just as I have little doubt he was trying to kill everyone he shot at. Just because he was incompetent doesn't absolve him of attempted murder.

    Example, much has been made about the PLO/Hamas/Islamic terrorists kill ratio compared to the IDF's. Sure, a lot more Palestinians have died in retaliation for suicide bombing and rocket attacks on Israel than have been killed in those attacks. It's a matter of competence and efficiency. Still, despite the lopsided death ratio, that doesn't absolve the PLO, Hamas and other terrorists from initiating the attacks in the first place. Hodgkinson repeatedly fired at people, hitting at least four. I strongly doubt he was just trying to warn them to make a political point.
     
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  9. Divine.Wind
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    Divine.Wind Platinum Member

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    An M4 is a variation of the M-16/AR-15. Same round, same mechanism, many similar parts, but a shorter configuration such as a shorter barrel and a collapsible stock. To quote Hillary Clinton "What difference does it make?"

    M4 carbine - Wikipedia
    The M4 carbine is a shorter and lighter variant of the M16A2 assault rifle. The M4 is a 5.56×45mm NATO, air-cooled, direct impingement gas-operated, magazine-fed carbine. It has a 14.5 in (370 mm) barrel and a telescoping stock.
     
  10. Iceweasel
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    Iceweasel Diamond Member

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    He always had the option to stay at home and continue his leftist hate on social media but tell the victims and cops he didn't want to kill. I guess they are guilty of murder then.
     

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