I Do Not Celebrate Thanksgiving

[Dr Grump]

How can you state that Israel is innocent and the Palestinians are all terrorists?

I used to think that the Israelis were blameless. But I agree, they do seem heavy handed on occasion and Sharon should never have gone to the Temple Mount. In saying that, I still believe the Palestinians have never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity. A lot of them do want to drive the Jews into the sea. Strangely, the Jews don't want to be pushed there...

 

[Taomon]

I used to think that the Israelis were blameless. But I agree, they do seem heavy handed on occasion and Sharon should never have gone to the Temple Mount. In saying that, I still believe the Palestinians have never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity. A lot of them do want to drive the Jews into the sea. Strangely, the Jews don't want to be pushed there...

Their fight is as ridiculous as the fight between Catholics and Protestants. They both worship the same God and have pretty much the same origins.

Jew versus Palestinian is like Mohawk versus Sioux or French versus British.

Someone should be Moe and treat them like Larry and Curly.

Most Arabs and their Middle East neighbors just want the fighting to end in that region...at least the moderates do. There will always be extremists, just as we will always have extremists here.

 

[Taomon]

The people who posted here against the idea of atonement or elevating the Native American Indians seem to think (based on your posts) that invading a country, marginalizing the indigenous population at any cost and exploiting the resources is okay and too bad for the losers because it is their responsibility to assimilate or die.

Now I understand how some of you are able to defend our invasion of Iraq and the atrocities meted out since our occupation began. And we are an aggressor occupying a weaker nation that just happens to be sitting on a very large repository of oil.

 

[pegwinn]

The people who posted here against the idea of atonement or elevating the Native American Indians seem to think (based on your posts) that invading a country, marginalizing the indigenous population at any cost and exploiting the resources is okay and too bad for the losers because it is their responsibility to assimilate or die.

Now I understand how some of you are able to defend our invasion of Iraq and the atrocities meted out since our occupation began. And we are an aggressor occupying a weaker nation that just happens to be sitting on a very large repository of oil.

I was going to continue to discuss your topic until I ran across this bit of wisdom. It appears you are going to change the topic and after this I will likely bow out.

For myself only. My position is simple. While some actions were reprehensible, I, didn't, do, it. My compassion is limited to those who actively attempt to help themselves. It is the difference between a hand up and a hand out.

You might want to just start a new thread if you are going after the "occupation for oil" theory.

 

[Taomon]

I was going to continue to discuss your topic until I ran across this bit of wisdom. It appears you are going to change the topic and after this I will likely bow out.

For myself only. My position is simple. While some actions were reprehensible, I, didn't, do, it. My compassion is limited to those who actively attempt to help themselves. It is the difference between a hand up and a hand out.

You might want to just start a new thread if you are going after the "occupation for oil" theory.

I am against hand outs personally. Hand up, which means education/training/certification is a must not only for the Native American Indians, but for all Americans.

 

[pegwinn]

I am against hand outs personally. Hand up, which means education/training/certification is a must not only for the Native American Indians, but for all Americans.

That is something we can agree on. It is a positive step forward that favors no one group at the expense of others. It requires that the recipient step up and become a team player. Very Good.

 

[Taomon]

That is something we can agree on. It is a positive step forward that favors no one group at the expense of others. It requires that the recipient step up and become a team player. Very Good.

I guess that I should have made that more clear. My bad.

 

[Gunny]

Here is what is wrong with your logic...there are terrorists on both sides. America & Israel are terrorist states. Palestinians, Lebanese and Arab individuals may band together or work separately, but they are a product of the conditions created by the US/Israeli actions.

Israel has a right to exist, but they do not have the right to subjugate the Palestinian people who have lived in that area as long as any Jew. Plus, because they created a state on land that was populated by indigenous people (Palestinians) they pretty much created a refugee situation and under International law, are bound to pay reparations, totaling into the billions, to those people.

The Palestinians have rights too and Israel refuses to acknowledge that. Lebanon has been invaded by Israel several times. Are they not allowed to defend themselves?

Israel is annexing areas that are inhabited by Palestinians. Basically it is the areas that have access to water. This is forcing the Palestinians to leave or be subject to military brutality. How do you justify this? How can you state that Israel is innocent and the Palestinians are all terrorists?

What a bunch of crap.

How about the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians elected democratically a KNOWN international terrorist organization as their government? Kind of clears things right up for you, doesn't it?

 

[Gunny]

The people who posted here against the idea of atonement or elevating the Native American Indians seem to think (based on your posts) that invading a country, marginalizing the indigenous population at any cost and exploiting the resources is okay and too bad for the losers because it is their responsibility to assimilate or die.

Now I understand how some of you are able to defend our invasion of Iraq and the atrocities meted out since our occupation began. And we are an aggressor occupying a weaker nation that just happens to be sitting on a very large repository of oil.

No, you really don't see. Invading a country and marginalizing the indigenous population is not okay by today's standard. However, it WAS by the standards of the days in which they occurred.

And I'll ask you the same question I've asked others ... where do you begin and end? Only with YOUR little pet causes? Or everything that has ever been taken back to where every person on Earth is standing on the same spot?

My gues is it's the former; which, completely negates any legitimacy to any argument you are trying to make.

 

[Toro]

I ate a lot of turkey for Thanksgiving.

Mmm-mmm.

 

[Taomon]

What a bunch of crap.

How about the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians elected democratically a KNOWN international terrorist organization as their government? Kind of clears things right up for you, doesn't it?

No, because Hamas and Hezbollah both have the right to defend the Palestinians and Lebanese people, and that is how the people of that region see it. Israel commits terrorist acts against both states, oversteps militarily and so on, and the Pals & Lebs have no option?

The US has been supplying Israel with the weapons and given the green light on all activities. How is this crap? How is it that Israel can be an aggressor and the Pals & Lebs cannot defend themselves?

How does your mind work? The US and Israel can do no wrong and everyone else are evil? You make no sense.

 

[Taomon]

No, you really don't see. Invading a country and marginalizing the indigenous population is not okay by today's standard. However, it WAS by the standards of the days in which they occurred.

And I'll ask you the same question I've asked others ... where do you begin and end? Only with YOUR little pet causes? Or everything that has ever been taken back to where every person on Earth is standing on the same spot?

My gues is it's the former; which, completely negates any legitimacy to any argument you are trying to make.

You don't condone any atonement or education about the atrocities committed against the Native American Indians. This is because you are white, Southern and myopic. Fine, don't be a part of the human race. Just live for yourself and you will reap what you sow.

Yes, if a wrong has been committed then atonement should be presented if stigmatization still exists, which in this case it does.

Answer me this, if invading a country and marginalizing the indigenous population is not okay by today's standard, then how do you account for Iraq?

 

[Taomon]

I ate a lot of turkey for Thanksgiving.

Mmm-mmm.

Good for you. I may not celebrate it but I respect your right to celebrate it.

 

[Shogun]

What a bunch of crap.

How about the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians elected democratically a KNOWN international terrorist organization as their government? Kind of clears things right up for you, doesn't it?

I guess that depends on if you ask a muslim the same question circa 2004.



I tellya, NOTHING convinces people of the utility of democracy... quite like invalidating the results of an ELECTION when the result isn't what you'd hoped.


If only I could have done the same thing here during the last tow election for the sake of republican terrorism and the rationalization of foreign collateral damage. "terrorist" and "good guys" are not universally defined and you dont' get a monopoly on who thinks which applies to whome. sure, you think their result would produce more dead jews.. meanwhile their prediction about OUR election results in the same. Thankfully, we can swallow dead muslim collateral damage easier than we can stomach dead jews while shitting on the democratic process to boot!

 

[Toro]

What a bunch of crap.

How about the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians elected democratically a KNOWN international terrorist organization as their government? Kind of clears things right up for you, doesn't it?

I have no sympathy for Hamas, but America looks hypocritical around the world when it calls for elections then refuses to recognize the results of elections because it disagrees with the outcome.

 

[Taomon]

I have no sympathy for Hamas, but America looks hypocritical around the world when it calls for elections then refuses to recognize the results of elections because it disagrees with the outcome.

Too true.

 

[Gunny]

No, because Hamas and Hezbollah both have the right to defend the Palestinians and Lebanese people, and that is how the people of that region see it. Israel commits terrorist acts against both states, oversteps militarily and so on, and the Pals & Lebs have no option?

The US has been supplying Israel with the weapons and given the green light on all activities. How is this crap? How is it that Israel can be an aggressor and the Pals & Lebs cannot defend themselves?

How does your mind work? The US and Israel can do no wrong and everyone else are evil? You make no sense.

There's a BIG difference between defending a waging a war of terror against noncombatants. They're criminals, nothing more nor less.

Israel commits military actions targetting terrorist organizations. BIG difference.

Israel invaded Lebanon to go after Palestinian terrorists after Lebanon refused to do anything about them. Too f-ing bad.

My mind works in a pretty logical manner. It appears yours with its "never kill" philosophy is more than willing to excuse premeditated murder of innocents/noncombatants by targetting them and condemn a military that in turn targets those murderers. THAT makes no sense, junior.

 

[Gunny]

You don't condone any atonement or education about the atrocities committed against the Native American Indians. This is because you are white, Southern and myopic. Fine, don't be a part of the human race. Just live for yourself and you will reap what you sow.

Yes, if a wrong has been committed then atonement should be presented if stigmatization still exists, which in this case it does.

Answer me this, if invading a country and marginalizing the indigenous population is not okay by today's standard, then how do you account for Iraq?

No, I don't condone any atonement and damned-sure don't condone your revisionist. "poor little victims" alleged education.

Dude, get off your fucking high horse, huh? You are stupid yankee that lives in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowhere and wouldn't know a Southerner if he walked up and slapped the taste out of your mouth. Try getting with the real world instead of that make-believe Utopian paradise you keep trying to sell.

I have done nothing to ANY Indians, and I'm damned sure not going to pay for shit that was done WAY before my time without having any say in the matter.

You and your bleeding heart want to kiss their asses as they demand, knock yourself out, but don't go lecturing me because I think you're a fool.

Iraq has nothing to do with invading and marginalizing indigenous people. Just more of your bullshit. Iraq was invaded and a totalitarian regime removed from power and the government turned over to the indigenous people. Therefore, your attempted deflection is irrelevant to the topic. Not even a good try.

How do you explain seeing any-and-everything ass-backward? Thought process got dyslexia, or what?

 

[Gunny]

I guess that depends on if you ask a muslim the same question circa 2004.



I tellya, NOTHING convinces people of the utility of democracy... quite like invalidating the results of an ELECTION when the result isn't what you'd hoped.


If only I could have done the same thing here during the last tow election for the sake of republican terrorism and the rationalization of foreign collateral damage. "terrorist" and "good guys" are not universally defined and you dont' get a monopoly on who thinks which applies to whome. sure, you think their result would produce more dead jews.. meanwhile their prediction about OUR election results in the same. Thankfully, we can swallow dead muslim collateral damage easier than we can stomach dead jews while shitting on the democratic process to boot!

Kind of mixing the apples and oranges, aren't ya? I can agree with and embrace democracy, and STILL not like the result of it.

What is it you libs say? Oh yeah, dissent is American, or democratic, or something like that?

I accept the fact that the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians voted a known terrorist organization in as their government. Now, they should and can suffer the consequences for doing so.

And, by electing a known terrorist organization in as their government, each and every Palestinian who voted for such has made him/herself complicit with Hamas' actions from that day forward.

 

[Gunny]

I have no sympathy for Hamas, but America looks hypocritical around the world when it calls for elections then refuses to recognize the results of elections because it disagrees with the outcome.

See above response to Shogun.

It's no different than any liberal claiming to believe in democracy and whining about Bush the past 7 years. Democracy itself, and the results of democracy are not the same animals.