I choose the jews.

[drac]

Agreed but it doesn't give em a free pass to be land grabbing slum lords. Israel needs to get thier internal politics together and make a decision one way or the other here and then act on it. If they are truly an advanced society they should be able to accomplish this. The "fence" they sit on is nearly as precipitous as the wall they are building.

Land grabbing is a political pressure on the arabs to return to peaceful negotiations, imho.

 

[drac]

So has Israel decided PERMANENT land boundries ? Have they decided to defend themselves by killing terrorists leaders ? Are the laws regarding return laws and reparations firmly in place?

why would current wall be a manifistation of the permanent border?
what are the other way of defending self?
those are not laws but agreements b/n 2 sides and no they should be and will be negotiated (i hope in your reparations/return laws you include jews being kicked out of arab countries)

 

[drac]

see forgive me for being heretical, but my view of world history is not in any way influenced by the bible, koran or any of the other holy books of our time. i look at where people have lived, what's happened to them, what they've done, etc etc.

forgiveness for being rational person? that is new to me.

the jews of israel have no better claim to israel than the palestinians. they have equal rights to the land, though the israelis are stealing more and more of it with their settlers while oppressing the palestinian people into an ever diminishing space.

sure both people have a equal claim to the land, that is why UN divided it in 2 to create 2 independed states and if you really follow history you would know that one side accepted it and the other did not and used military force.
I guess then israel returned sinai to egypt during the peace process, withdraw its army from lebanon to the international recognize border, even than hizbullah keep shelling the border towns, currently in process of withdrawing from gaza strip, it is all constitute a land grab...
Oppressing... well i guess since palestinian did not want to follow oslo and continue the peacefull negotiation, whey want to be "oppressed" imho

when the palestinians stop listening to the arabs and listen to their hearts, to themselves, they'll realize inviting daily oppression by the israeli military machine by foolishly commiting acts of terrorism and barbarism is getting them nowhere.

hm.. so oppression by isreal is a result of terrorism.. would not it mean that oppression will stop when terror ends?

israel's far right doesn't want this to happen becuase then they'll know the jig is up and they'll have to actually co-exist with the palestinians and share various life neccessity resources with them.

israel's far right is a far minority and are controlled by majority as in any democratical country, israeli are happy to coexist side by side as history showed

but yea, i still choose the palestinians, not the terrorist campaign waged in the past few years, but the people themselves, oppressed and screwed over at every turn by leadership and outsiders, and fervently hope they find their brains and hearts and get their shit together.

It does not really matter who you choose, my original point was that 2 sides are involved and both are responsible. By shifting blame on one side you will not accomplish anything. Palestians are responsible for the shit they got themself into. Israeli are also responsible for not controlling themself better during confrontations and not being flexible enough (imho)

 

[dilloduck]

forgiveness for being rational person? that is new to me.

sure both people have a equal claim to the land, that is why UN divided it in 2 to create 2 independed states and if you really follow history you would know that one side accepted it and the other did not and used military force.
I guess then israel returned sinai to egypt during the peace process, withdraw its army from lebanon to the international recognize border, even than hizbullah keep shelling the border towns, currently in process of withdrawing from gaza strip, it is all constitute a land grab...
Oppressing... well i guess since palestinian did not want to follow oslo and continue the peacefull negotiation, whey want to be "oppressed" imho

hm.. so oppression by isreal is a result of terrorism.. would not it mean that oppression will stop when terror ends?

israel's far right is a far minority and are controlled by majority as in any democratical country, israeli are happy to coexist side by side as history showed

It does not really matter who you choose, my original point was that 2 sides are involved and both are responsible. By shifting blame on one side you will not accomplish anything. Palestians are responsible for the shit they got themself into. Israeli are also responsible for not controlling themself better during confrontations and not being flexible enough (imho)

We're talking about basically 2 groups here whose religion is the same thing as thier culture.
This is a religious disagreement that people are using military and political means to resolve. Let's get religious leaders together and have them resolve this. At least we will see REAL disputes being debated. I want tickets to that fantasy.

 

[drac]

We're talking about basically 2 groups here whose religion is the same thing as thier culture.
This is a religious disagreement that people are using military and political means to resolve. Let's get religious leaders together and have them resolve this. At least we will see REAL disputes being debated. I want tickets to that fantasy.

being sarcastic?
i disagree of this being a religius issue only, but in any case i would prefer a real debate over both side killing. What is your suggestion? Make a decision and kick one side out and then "stay the course"?

 

[dilloduck]

being sarcastic?
i disagree of this being a religius issue only, but in any case i would prefer a real debate over both side killing. What is your suggestion? Make a decision and kick one side out and then "stay the course"?

I meant that religion is the underlying issue that manifests itself in numerous ways. I don't understand ---a debate over both sides killing?

 

[drac]

Woow
You all now on the other side
It's great
But actually I don’t know what the bad thing in what I said
I didn't give my opinion in Jewish I said from the beginning the Israeli "Jewish"
And sure not all of them
Am talking here about the whole system
Let us talk
Now who destroy and kill is it Israel as a country or the Jewish as a person?
It is Israel as a country , so it is a whole system
On the other side who fight is civilian and normal citizen
We never heard that the Palestinian government attacked the Israeli
Right
And now let me ask
When you began to fight to get your right??
You do so when your parent can't get it for you or when your government didn't provide your need and safety.
So what is going in Palestine is done by its people who get sick from just promising and never get anything from it
So they decide to answer the system which destroy their homes and kill their family
In your opinion what make a girl with only 18 years make a suicidal mission as you say when I call it martyrdom mission, it is because she like to kill people, is it because she is terrorist "is all the girls are terrorist", every one born with this thing in his heart which make him love peace and like to settle down, no one love war
Then she make so cuz they took from her every thing, she did so cuz she believe deep in heart that they destroy and kill and take every thing beautiful from her she felt injustice, and after Israeli destroyed her life
After that they call her terrorist
Imagine a normal citizen facing a whole system
What is the picture?
Sure no one of us will destroy or blow up his self in something he don’t believe in it
And sure no one will try to destroy him self till after that we call him a terrorist
And let me tell you some thing the terrorist is also timid he won't sacrifice him self to accomplish his mission, he will try as he can to save his life cuz he don’t believe in what he do
plus the terrorist take money for what they do, do the Palestinian take money for what they do
yeah may be after their death they will burry the money with them to enjoy it in the other life
and I want to say that the Israeli who began with war
and I just wanted you to compare a bout our book say and about what the Talmud say
did any one of you read the Talmud before
read and see what they say about other religion and any people but the Jewish

please tell me again how did killing of these 2 kids serves the defense of palestine?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20040929/wl_nm/mideast_dc

 

[dilloduck]

please tell me again how did killing of these 2 kids serves the defense of palestine?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20040929/wl_nm/mideast_dc

there have been collateral ( i'm learning to hated that word ) fatalities on both sides

 

[drac]

I meant that religion is the underlying issue that manifests itself in numerous ways. I don't understand ---a debate over both sides killing?

i agree that religion does play the role, i just believe that the core is selfdetermination of both people.
I am just commenting on your statement: <i>"..At least we will see REAL disputes being debated. I want tickets to that fantasy.."</i>. IMHO, i would prefer the debate b/n 2 sides instead of killing (sry, bad english skills today :cof: )

 

[drac]

there have been collateral ( i'm learning to hated that word ) fatalities on both sides

ok, it just hard for me to take this explaination based on the fact that rockets were directed toward civilian population, not military post or base and no one was shooting from behind those kids

 

[dilloduck]

ok, it just hard for me to take this explaination based on the fact that rockets were directed toward civilian population, not military post or base and no one was shooting from behind those kids

It's hard for me to take any explanation that only blames one side in this mess

 

[rtwngAvngr]

It's hard for me to take any explanation that only blames one side in this mess

The islamics will never accept two states there.

 

[drac]

It's hard for me to take any explanation that only blames one side in this mess

Fair enough, i do not blame only one side

 

[dilloduck]

It has become a viscious game of "last tag". I wish our money wasn't used to play it but there is no chance of that happening .

 

[drac]

It has become a viscious game of "last tag". I wish our money wasn't used to play it but there is no chance of that happening .

I think at the end we will end up fitting a bigger bill to keep all sides happy. You know like, some money to palestine, some for syria, some for lebanon, some for israel....

 

[dilloduck]

I think at the end we will end up fitting a bigger bill to keep all sides happy. You know like, some money to palestine, some for syria, some for lebanon, some for israel....

Now that is something I doubt . Neither Israel nor terrorists could get paid enough to stop. It's a blood feud.

 

[drac]

Now that is something I doubt . Neither Israel nor terrorists could get paid enough to stop. It's a blood feud.

I dunno... egypt and israel got some after the peace treaty, jordan and israel got some after thier peace treaty... why not others?

at the end it is all about good life. would you want to blow self up if you have a good car, good house, good food, good work and can play computer games? ooo and you also have s.o. and can do whatever you do with s.o.??

am i right or am i right? the only reason Adam learn how to hunt and cook and make shelter and fire was cause he was kicked out of the 5 star hotel onto the street

 

[dilloduck]

I dunno... egypt and israel got some after the peace treaty, jordan and israel got some after thier peace treaty... why not others?

at the end it is all about good life. would you want to blow self up if you have a good car, good house, good food, good work and can play computer games? ooo and you also have s.o. and can do whatever you do with s.o.??

am i right or am i right? the only reason Adam learn how to hunt and cook and make shelter and fire was cause he was kicked out of the 5 star hotel onto the street

The terror groups in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere already receive money form other sources but are not interested in peace. Israel uses thier attacks as an excuse to take more land and for further oppression. Israel already receives billions. The Palestinians I'm sure would love to have the money but they are not in charge of thier own situation. Terror groups are.

 

[NATO AIR]

i'm saying i choose the palestinians in this argument... if i were a lawyer or an aid worker or a gov't official, i would be taking their side.... the israelis are in full control of this situation and always have been. they've got land they don't want to give up now, and too many in their government and high pillars of society secretly loathe the palestinians. they've been OPPRESSING the palestinians for decades now, and though that is not 100% their fault, it is still not acceptable. they did not have to impose such a brutal, callous and fatal occupation on the palestinians after 1967, they CHOSE to. everyone's hands are bloody in this, no one is without fault, but i'm sick and fricking tired of people blaming the palestinians for all this, when the israelis are just as much at fault and we're giving these bastards 15 billion dollars a year to keep up the oppression.

terrorism is wrong.
oppression is wrong.

both are gonna have to go before peace will happen in that part of the world.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

i'm saying i choose the palestinians in this argument... if i were a lawyer or an aid worker or a gov't official, i would be taking their side.... the israelis are in full control of this situation and always have been. they've got land they don't want to give up now, and too many in their government and high pillars of society secretly loathe the palestinians. they've been OPPRESSING the palestinians for decades now, and though that is not 100% their fault, it is still not acceptable. they did not have to impose such a brutal, callous and fatal occupation on the palestinians after 1967, they CHOSE to. everyone's hands are bloody in this, no one is without fault, but i'm sick and fricking tired of people blaming the palestinians for all this, when the israelis are just as much at fault and we're giving these bastards 15 billion dollars a year to keep up the oppression.

terrorism is wrong.
oppression is wrong.

both are gonna have to go before peace will happen in that part of the world.

But one is a reaction to the other. I don't think the existence of Israel is acceptable in any way to the islamofascists, so they terrorize; The Zionists oppress as a defensive move.