I am against homosexuality, gay marriage, and civil unions.

[maineman]

It is not your buisness what consenting adults do as long as it is not illegal. Civil Unions are fine, I do not agree that Marriage should be a term applied to same sex couples.

The Bible is clear, the new testament has Jesus telling us to not JUDGE others in this manner. You don't like them, don't associate with them. Oppose laws that give them special privaleges ( I disagree with that also) but do NOT try and claim they should not be provided the same rights and safeguards everyone else is.

I agree completely and, as I said earlier, I think that government should be out of the marriage business altogether. Let chuches "marry" whoever they chose to, but have those ceremonies have no force in law. Similarly, let government grant civil union licenses to any two consenting adults that chose to legally join their assets and their affairs, but have THAT contract have no binding effect on any church.

 

[Gunny]

I ask YOU this: do you think that most white Americans south of the Mason-Dixon Line wanted their children to attend school with black children?

I agree with TM on this: government should only be involved in issuing licences for civil contracts...and their contract should have no force on churches...and churches should only be involved in holy matrimony, and their ceremonies should have no force on government.

Binding themselves in civil union to enjoy all the legal benefits now granted only to married couples is the RIGHT of gays and lesbians just like attending the "good" schools with all the other (white) children in their neighborhood was the RIGHT of black children in 1954 (and today).

In actuality, that is ALL government IS involved in ...issueing licenses for civil contracts and collecting the fees. It merely a convenience for the government to allow churches to perform the marriage ceremony; however, if you recall, you STILL have to go to the courthouse to get the license first. The pastor only witnesses that the marriage actually took place.

Your last paragrah could be solved if WE (not just homosexuals) quit allowing corporations, insurance companies, hospitals etc to disallow us to choose whoever the Hell we want to be our legal primary next of kin/person to contact in an emergency.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I agree completely and, as I said earlier, I think that government should be out of the marriage business altogether. Let chuches "marry" whoever they chose to, but have those ceremonies have no force in law. Similarly, let government grant civil union licenses to any two consenting adults that chose to legally join their assets and their affairs, but have THAT contract have no binding effect on any church.

I would support such a move. Not because i think marriage shouldn't be handled by the State, but because I am willing to admit as it stands now it is unfair.

 

[maineman]

Your last paragrah could be solved if WE (not just homosexuals) quit allowing corporations, insurance companies, hospitals etc to disallow us to choose whoever the Hell we want to be our legal primary next of kin/person to contact in an emergency.

and here I thought you were a freemarket capitalist!

Like I said: get government out of the "marriage" business altogether and let them grant civil unions to any consenting adults. And keep churches out of the legal end of civil unions and let them "marry" or NOT " marry" whoever the hell they want to.

 

[Gunny]

and here I thought you were a freemarket capitalist!

Like I said: get government out of the "marriage" business altogether and let them grant civil unions to any consenting adults. And keep churches out of the legal end of civil unions and let them "marry" or NOT " marry" whoever the hell they want to.

You forget I'm a highly-trained ree-formed liberal. I have no problem with capitalism, but within reason. When it acts in direct conflict with our rights under the Constitution, then it's outside "within reason."

Insurance companies, who IMO, are the worst when it comes to this topic, deprive us of the right to choose whoever the Hell we want as NOK, and have enough voice in government that the law backs them up. All them denying us that right amounts to is their bottom line, and we're screwed.

IIRC, civil unions were pretty-much offered to the homosexual community when this issue last was in the National eye, but the flamers/extremists thumbed their noses at it. They want all or nothing and pushed homosexual "marriage" and they lost.

While there are a lot of pure homosexual haters out there, I personally don't care what they do in the confines of their own houses. I haven't opposed civil unions either, but with the opposite approach as you have:

Keep your government out of my church. My opposition is to the government forcing churches to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexuals when homosexuality clearly is not morally acceptable to most churches.

 

[Ninja]

I believe that for all intents and purposes, a marriage is a business agreement.

I don't think the government has the right to tell people who they can and can't enter into a business arrangement with.

They want the government out of their bedroom. I want the government out of my gun safe. Too bad so many of the same-sex marriage advocates dislike the Second Amendment - we should really be working together.

 

[jillian]

I believe that for all intents and purposes, a marriage is a business agreement.

I don't think the government has the right to tell people who they can and can't enter into a business arrangement with.

They want the government out of their bedroom. I want the government out of my gun safe. Too bad so many of the same-sex marriage advocates dislike the Second Amendment - we should really be working together.

I've always figured that the 2nd Amendment had equal weight with the other nine.

Too bad the right talks about small government but thinks government belongs in the bedroom.

 

[maineman]

I haven't opposed civil unions either, but with the opposite approach as you have:

Keep your government out of my church. My opposition is to the government forcing churches to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexuals when homosexuality clearly is not morally acceptable to most churches.

that approach is not opposite to mine: it is perfectly complimentary: Keep the government out of church and keep religion out of civil contracts. Civil contracts under LAW for any people who wish to contracturally join their affairs, their assets and their estates..... Holy Matrimony for any church to bind any two people together that fit with their particular theology. Neither ceremony or contract should have any force in its opposite realm.

 

[Toro]

Too bad the right talks about small government but thinks government belongs in the bedroom.

Amen.

Liberals want to free your social lives and control your economic lives. Conservatives want to free you economic lives and control your social lives.

More or less.

 

[Vintij]

Amen.

Liberals want to free your social lives and control your economic lives. Conservatives want to free you economic lives and control your social lives.

More or less.

If there is one thing liberals want, its money. If there is one thing conservatives want, its power. And we are the sheep that get them what they want.

This is the problem with a two party government, sometimes both partys are a disgrace.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

do you know how many versus in the koran are worse then that?. I wonder how many muslim countries are stoning gays (which im against) to death, and how many christian countries are doing that today.

Should homosexuals be put to death? The Bible says the should:

Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

How does this apply to lesbians? There is no mention of lesbians in the Bible so lesbianism must be okay, right?

Leviticus 20 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

Do you believe this?

20 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

What about that one?

Here's a goodie:

Deuteronomy 22:20-1: If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Shall we start stoning unmarried non-virgins? The Bible says we should.

Exodus 35:2: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Watch out, your favorite Target cashier is marked for death.

Seems we ended slavery for no good reason, the Bible says it's okeedokee:

Leviticus 25:44-45: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

Exodus 21:20-21: If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Let us not forget about the subjugation of women:

Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Why is incest allowed in the Bible with no clear punishment?

Just because it's in the Bible doesn't make it right. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't make it good.

 

[hjmick]

do you know how many versus in the koran are worse then that?. I wonder how many muslim countries are stoning gays (which im against) to death, and how many christian countries are doing that today.

Without a doubt, ANM, the Quran is as bad or worse, especially when you consider that Muslim extremists interpret it literally. Fortunately, I know of no Christians who interpret and act on the words of the Bible literally.

I quoted Bible verses simply because you stated in your initial post that you were opposed to homosexuality because the Bible said it was wrong. Had you said you opposed it because the Quran said it was wrong, although much less familiar with the Quran, I would have attempted to quote it.

I meant no offense and hope none was taken. Though I do not worship myself and consider myself Agnostic, I do respect the right of others to worship and believe as they choose. I will, however, point to the inconsistancies in the Bible if it's words are being used as the reason to deny a group of people rights that the rest of us take for granted. This area is where I abandon my conservative beliefs. I just don't care. The truth is, considering the rate of divorce in this country, we heterosexuals have done more than our share to make a mockery of marriage.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont remember the bible saying whites cant marry blacks, but i am a novice at best when it comes to the bible.

I truly believe comparing interracial marriage to gay marriage is a like comparing apples in oranges.

The most truly fair way to settle this issue, would be, how about states decide . Do we need the government solving everything?

you could even let cities decide for themselves, if san francisco wants gay marriage, fine with me. and more conservative cities could say no, but i doubt frisco would be the only liberal city to say yes.

Whats the problem. It doesnt matter where you start, only where you finish.

Im all open to comprimise.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I think you make excellent points, and your a brilliant person. you should never have to apologize for stating your opinion. I truly respect that fact, that you dont feel the need to attack anyone, based on their beliefs. To be honest, im very conflicted on the gay issue, half of me supports them, and their rights, the other says, but god did say, bad bad. Im conflicted too be honest. And I think islam is worse then christianity is terms of horrific verses, i only meant to compare to say, both oppose homosexuality.

Without a doubt, ANM, the Quran is as bad or worse, especially when you consider that Muslim extremists interpret it literally. Fortunately, I know of no Christians who interpret and act on the words of the Bible literally.

I quoted Bible verses simply because you stated in your initial post that you were opposed to homosexuality because the Bible said it was wrong. Had you said you opposed it because the Quran said it was wrong, although much less familiar with the Quran, I would have attempted to quote it.

I meant no offense and hope none was taken. Though I do not worship myself and consider myself Agnostic, I do respect the right of others to worship and believe as they choose. I will, however, point to the inconsistancies in the Bible if it's words are being used as the reason to deny a group of people rights that the rest of us take for granted. This area is where I abandon my conservative beliefs. I just don't care. The truth is, considering the rate of divorce in this country, we heterosexuals have done more than our share to make a mockery of marriage.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I have met and had gay acquaintances, I worked for a short time twice with gay people, but I dont think ive ever really had a true gay friend. never really had any gay friends, im not opposed to it. I care extremely about other people and their lives. And i feel really sad, and hurt for gay people, because they face alot of hate and discrimination, and its like, they are not aliens, they dont hit on you, 99% of the time, when you say, youre straight, and i know i can never understand their pain.

Well, my family wasnt religious, but i have friends who are religious, and I hate to say to anyone, youre wrong, even the people on this board, who believe that 9/11 was an inside job, I want to be kind to them and respect them. Im not trying to compare the two, you are completely right about my fear of challenging god. I want to be more spiritual, I really do believe in god, and how can i call him wrong on gays, kids, and marriage. You are completely right about a lot of hypocrisy, it just feels weird to say, god youre right about this, but not that. Maybe im just a young fool, i dont know.

There is no shame being in the middle of this debate without picking sides, the hard part is actually defending your position.

The part of you that supports gays, is that because you have gay friends? And even if you didnt, do you care what other people do with their lives?

The other part of you that says "how can god be wrong" is understandable because you were brought up into a religious family, but I will assume your of age to know that everything in the bible is not true. Therefore most of the bible literally can not be the "word" of god. Ofcourse if you believe that then thats what you choose to believe but at this age, at least you can choose what to buy into.

If it says in genesis that "homosexuality" is a sin and must be treated as such, well then that means you actually practice the old testamen. Which not many people do, unless your muslim.

The problem with this country is, the hypocracy with choosing which part of the bible to trust, and which part to throw away. If your going to be against homosexuality like the bible says, well then your going to have to be for stoning your children to death when they act up, giving your wife up to someone who raped her, selling slaves for wifes, taking orders to kill another man from god.

All of these things happend in your king james version of the bible, the same version which houses your beliefs in homosexuality, or "gods" beliefs.

Growing into religion is one thing, it keeps kids doing morally right things. Being an adult in a religion, is a choice to believe in the bible. If you havent read the entire bible, and believe what it all says, whats the point of having an opinion on something thats in the bible, that part of you does not even care about.

So you see, god is not wrong, god cant be wrong.....its the bible that is telling you what to do, not god. And if you believe that god IS literally in the bible, well you have problems, because the bible is not very omnipotent and loving.

 

[hjmick]

I think you make excellent points, and your a brilliant person. you should never have to apologize for stating your opinion. I truly respect that fact, that you dont feel the need to attack anyone, based on their beliefs. To be honest, im very conflicted on the gay issue, half of me supports them, and their rights, the other says, but god did say, bad bad. Im conflicted too be honest. And I think islam is worse then christianity is terms of horrific verses, i only meant to compare to say, both oppose homosexuality.

Thank you for the compliment, though I'm not sure how brilliant I am.

There is nothing wrong with being conflicted about an issue, it can be a useful tool and force a person to do some critical thinking, it causes one to search his or her conscience to discover how they really feel.

In your post to Vintij you said, "You are completely right about my fear of challenging God. I want to be more spiritual, I really do believe in God, and how can I call him wrong on gays, kids, and marriage? You are completely right about a lot of hypocrisy, it just feels weird to say, God youre right about this, but not that," to this I say, if there is a God, and if this God created man in his image, and if in doing so he gave us free will, the ability to think, wouldn't he want us to question things such as this? Consider, if you will, that the Bible was written by men, men with an agenda, men who had a strong desire to bend the beliefs of the general populace to conform to their beliefs. These men who chose what to put in the book and what to omit. I am of the opinion that this alone should lead us to question their intent. Perhaps God wants us to love and be tolerant of everyone, perhaps the men who wrote the Bible found the idea of homosexuality so abhorant that they designated it as evil and punishable by death. Something to think about.

You said that maybe you are just a "young fool," well, I don't know how old you are, but I assure that it is not a person's age that makes them a fool, among other things, it is their inability to consider that they may be wrong, it is their unwillingness to change and adapt their beliefs or opinions when confronted with the realization that they may be wrong.

When I was in high school I had an English teacher who changed the way I think. He showed us a movie. I recommend this movie to you, Inherit the Wind, 1960, Spencer Tracy and Frederick March. It is loosely based on the Scopes monkey trial, it uses the issue of evolution and the 1925 trial as a backdrop. But it also about McCarthyism. Jerome Lawrence and Bob Lee, the writers of the play say they weren't writing a play about the Scopes Trial; they were writing a play about McCarthyism. They were writing during the period of the blacklisting of authors and playwrights. Some blacklisted playwrights actually helped in writing it. They were just projecting back to another event, and then making a play about, trying to expose, how terrible McCarthyism was.

Never stop asking questions. The only stupid question is the question left unasked.

 

[MissileMan]

Keep your government out of my church. My opposition is to the government forcing churches to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexuals when homosexuality clearly is not morally acceptable to most churches.

I've never seen it suggested that churches be forced to perform gay marriages.

 

[Gunny]

I've always figured that the 2nd Amendment had equal weight with the other nine.

Too bad the right talks about small government but thinks government belongs in the bedroom.

Which "right" would that be, Jillian?

I cannot think of one right-winger; although, I am sure there is at least one, on this board since I have been a member who advocated outlawing homosexuality. In addition, I doubt you will find any numbers to support your statement.

Quite simply, there are people who think homosexuality should be outlawed, and I'm not even so sure they're all right-wing extremists. There are a lot of liberals in my age-group or older who were raised to believe they were subhuman child predators. I doubt they've ALL given up their beliefs.

And when you say "the right talks about small government," you need to be specific. True conservatives believe in small government. That does not necessarily include Republicans anymore, or so it seems.

 

[Gunny]

If there is one thing liberals want, its money. If there is one thing conservatives want, its power. And we are the sheep that get them what they want.

This is the problem with a two party government, sometimes both partys are a disgrace.

Amen to that.

 

[Gunny]

I've never seen it suggested that churches be forced to perform gay marriages.

It was suggested more than once that churches lose their tax exemptions if they refused to perform gay marriages back when the Mayor of SF (I think it was him) decided he was going to issue licenses.