Hypothetical UCMJ Question

Max_Connely

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Jan 15, 2018
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I was cleaning my office the other day and found a story that I wrote several years ago. It was about a guy who was a sniper in a STA platoon during Desert Storm. Disobeying an order to stand down, he shot and killed a target he thought was Saddam himself. The target turned out to be a decoy. My character was court martialed, discharged, and confined. After he served his time he became something of an international criminal type.

What is your opinion? How would his have case have really been handled? Would this have been covered up? Would my character have been sentenced to life or executed? How do you think this really would have gone down?

Jack
 
If Democrats were trying to get into office, this man would have been assassinated in the media as a political campaign against the war blamed on Republicans.
If Republicans were in office and trying to stay in power, this would have been played down quietly, or the man played up as a hero to promote the war as a sacrifice of service.

If you want an educated experienced review of your story for publication,
try consulting with Allen West at the National Policy institute in Dallas.
As you know, he was court martialed for shooting a gun over the head of
a terrorist during interrogation, which compelled a confession of information
that saved the lives of the men in West's unit. But because of politics, West
was punished worse for his actions that saved lives of American troops he was responsible for,
than Clinton ever was for deaths of Americans due to her decisions and actions or lack thereof.
 
the military frowns on not following orders and the killing of someone just b/c you 'think' they are a bad guy.

he would have gotten a varied sentence based on his record.

screw ups get worse while ass kissers get less.
 
If Democrats were trying to get into office, this man would have been assassinated in the media as a political campaign against the war blamed on Republicans.
If Republicans were in office and trying to stay in power, this would have been played down quietly, or the man played up as a hero to promote the war as a sacrifice of service.

If you want an educated experienced review of your story for publication,
try consulting with Allen West at the National Policy institute in Dallas.
As you know, he was court martialed for shooting a gun over the head of
a terrorist during interrogation, which compelled a confession of information
that saved the lives of the men in West's unit. But because of politics, West
was punished worse for his actions that saved lives of American troops he was responsible for,
than Clinton ever was for deaths of Americans due to her decisions and actions or lack thereof.
Damn you are getting dementia bad...
 
I set the event in the first week after the engagement was upgraded to Desert Storm, so tensions were pretty high. I think he got 2 years of confinement, on top of the other repercussions.
 
While serving in Taji, Iraq, West received information from an intelligence specialist about a plot to ambush his unit. The alleged plot involved Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, an Iraqi police officer. West had his men detain Hamoodi.[18] Soldiers testified that in the process of detaining Hamoodi, he appeared to reach for his weapon and needed to be subdued.[18] Hamoodi was beaten by four soldiers from the 2/20th Field Artillery Battalion on the head and body.[19] West then fired his pistol near Hamoodi's head,[18] after which Hamoodi provided West with names and information, which Hamoodi later described as "meaningless information induced by fear and pain."[18] At least one of these suspects was arrested as a result, but no plans for attacks or weapons were found.[18] West said "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi."[18]

West was charged with violating Articles 128 (assault) and 134 (general article) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. During a hearing held as part of an Article 32 investigation in November 2003, West stated, "I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers."[19] The charges were ultimately referred to an Article 15 proceeding rather than court-martial, at which West was fined $5,000.[18] West accepted the judgment and retired with full benefits as a lieutenant colonel in the summer of 2004. Asked if he would act differently under similar circumstances, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."[19] At his hearing, West said that there were no ambushes against American forces in Taji until he was relieved of his leadership post a month later.[19] After West's retirement he received more than 2,000 letters and e-mails offering him moral support.[18] A letter supporting West was signed by 95 members of the U.S. Congress and sent to the Secretary of the Army.[18]
Allen West (politician) - Wikipedia

He was no hero and he saved no lives. He acted reckless and without discipline...
 
While serving in Taji, Iraq, West received information from an intelligence specialist about a plot to ambush his unit. The alleged plot involved Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, an Iraqi police officer. West had his men detain Hamoodi.[18] Soldiers testified that in the process of detaining Hamoodi, he appeared to reach for his weapon and needed to be subdued.[18] Hamoodi was beaten by four soldiers from the 2/20th Field Artillery Battalion on the head and body.[19] West then fired his pistol near Hamoodi's head,[18] after which Hamoodi provided West with names and information, which Hamoodi later described as "meaningless information induced by fear and pain."[18] At least one of these suspects was arrested as a result, but no plans for attacks or weapons were found.[18] West said "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi."[18]

West was charged with violating Articles 128 (assault) and 134 (general article) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. During a hearing held as part of an Article 32 investigation in November 2003, West stated, "I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers."[19] The charges were ultimately referred to an Article 15 proceeding rather than court-martial, at which West was fined $5,000.[18] West accepted the judgment and retired with full benefits as a lieutenant colonel in the summer of 2004. Asked if he would act differently under similar circumstances, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."[19] At his hearing, West said that there were no ambushes against American forces in Taji until he was relieved of his leadership post a month later.[19] After West's retirement he received more than 2,000 letters and e-mails offering him moral support.[18] A letter supporting West was signed by 95 members of the U.S. Congress and sent to the Secretary of the Army.[18]
Allen West (politician) - Wikipedia

He was no hero and he saved no lives. He acted reckless and without discipline...

I respect the fact that he stood by his convictions and accepted the punishment.
 
Did the soldier in inform his radio contact that he believed the target was Saddam ? I'm not sure if Hussein or his body doubles were considered a target of opportunity or not , but if the soldier in question took the shot against orders he could have been Court Martialed and thrown out of the service. I doubt they would have sent him to prison he thought it was Saddam Hussein and nobody liked that motherfucker.
 
I was cleaning my office the other day and found a story that I wrote several years ago. It was about a guy who was a sniper in a STA platoon during Desert Storm. Disobeying an order to stand down, he shot and killed a target he thought was Saddam himself. The target turned out to be a decoy. My character was court martialed, discharged, and confined. After he served his time he became something of an international criminal type.

What is your opinion? How would his have case have really been handled? Would this have been covered up? Would my character have been sentenced to life or executed? How do you think this really would have gone down?

Jack

Stand down means stand down; no ambiguity involved here. Wouldn't want him around me. Prison? Depends on his previous record and a mental evaluation.

As for the case in Moonglow's post, I wouldn't have prosecuted or even said a thing; the problem was with the intelligence specialist, not the officer, and I would never screw with somebody over actions that involve existential realities in the field based on hindsight after the fact, just because it might make some tards back home all butthurt and jump up and down sniveling.
 
I was cleaning my office the other day and found a story that I wrote several years ago. It was about a guy who was a sniper in a STA platoon during Desert Storm. Disobeying an order to stand down, he shot and killed a target he thought was Saddam himself. The target turned out to be a decoy. My character was court martialed, discharged, and confined. After he served his time he became something of an international criminal type.

What is your opinion? How would his have case have really been handled? Would this have been covered up? Would my character have been sentenced to life or executed? How do you think this really would have gone down?

Jack

Stand down means stand down; no ambiguity involved here. Wouldn't want him around me. Prison? Depends on his previous record and a mental evaluation.

As for the case in Moonglow's post, I wouldn't have prosecuted or even said a thing; the problem was with the intelligence specialist, not the officer, and I would never screw with somebody over actions that involve existential realities in the field based on hindsight after the fact, just because it might make some tards back home all butthurt and jump up and down sniveling.

I received one stand down order in my life. I stood down. It ended me in one of my careers. I still have blocked memory from it in order to cope. It was not my job to even consider going against that order. I didn't have the bigger picture like Command did. Morality and Ethics never entered in it. I know why now but it doesn't stop the occasional nightmare. I don't have nightmares of that incident since it's pretty well blocked out but I do have over some of the dumbest things imaginable. Yes, I am one of the few USAF personnel that have been diagnosed with PTSD. I imagine that there are one hell of a lot more USAF People that also have some degree of PTSD. But, back in those days, USAF just couldn't be afflicted with PTSD. It's a price I paid by honoring the Stand Down was never in question. To ignore the order would have resulted in my being Court Martialed, found guilty and sentenced with a Felony forever. The repercussions happened anyway but not caused by my actions. I was on the "Wrong" side of a line. Kent State was triggered by the blurring of that line by the Army.
 
I was cleaning my office the other day and found a story that I wrote several years ago. It was about a guy who was a sniper in a STA platoon during Desert Storm. Disobeying an order to stand down, he shot and killed a target he thought was Saddam himself. The target turned out to be a decoy. My character was court martialed, discharged, and confined. After he served his time he became something of an international criminal type.

What is your opinion? How would his have case have really been handled? Would this have been covered up? Would my character have been sentenced to life or executed? How do you think this really would have gone down?

Jack

Stand down means stand down; no ambiguity involved here. Wouldn't want him around me. Prison? Depends on his previous record and a mental evaluation.

As for the case in Moonglow's post, I wouldn't have prosecuted or even said a thing; the problem was with the intelligence specialist, not the officer, and I would never screw with somebody over actions that involve existential realities in the field based on hindsight after the fact, just because it might make some tards back home all butthurt and jump up and down sniveling.

I received one stand down order in my life. I stood down. It ended me in one of my careers. I still have blocked memory from it in order to cope. It was not my job to even consider going against that order. I didn't have the bigger picture like Command did. Morality and Ethics never entered in it. I know why now but it doesn't stop the occasional nightmare. I don't have nightmares of that incident since it's pretty well blocked out but I do have over some of the dumbest things imaginable. Yes, I am one of the few USAF personnel that have been diagnosed with PTSD. I imagine that there are one hell of a lot more USAF People that also have some degree of PTSD. But, back in those days, USAF just couldn't be afflicted with PTSD. It's a price I paid by honoring the Stand Down was never in question. To ignore the order would have resulted in my being Court Martialed, found guilty and sentenced with a Felony forever. The repercussions happened anyway but not caused by my actions. I was on the "Wrong" side of a line. Kent State was triggered by the blurring of that line by the Army.

Kent State was a National Guard unit, not regular Army, wasn't it? In any case, stories like yours are common throughout wars and actions, and there is no magical solution for every individual action, but there is a reason for making following orders paramount, and the law of averages over time is on the side of the policy. You did the right thing, even if it's hard to make sense of in the particular context. I come from a military family, and everybody has similar anecdotes, so you're not alone. Let Command take the responsibility for its own actions and learn to not take them on yourselves.
 
I was cleaning my office the other day and found a story that I wrote several years ago. It was about a guy who was a sniper in a STA platoon during Desert Storm. Disobeying an order to stand down, he shot and killed a target he thought was Saddam himself. The target turned out to be a decoy. My character was court martialed, discharged, and confined. After he served his time he became something of an international criminal type.

What is your opinion? How would his have case have really been handled? Would this have been covered up? Would my character have been sentenced to life or executed? How do you think this really would have gone down?

Jack

Stand down means stand down; no ambiguity involved here. Wouldn't want him around me. Prison? Depends on his previous record and a mental evaluation.

As for the case in Moonglow's post, I wouldn't have prosecuted or even said a thing; the problem was with the intelligence specialist, not the officer, and I would never screw with somebody over actions that involve existential realities in the field based on hindsight after the fact, just because it might make some tards back home all butthurt and jump up and down sniveling.

I received one stand down order in my life. I stood down. It ended me in one of my careers. I still have blocked memory from it in order to cope. It was not my job to even consider going against that order. I didn't have the bigger picture like Command did. Morality and Ethics never entered in it. I know why now but it doesn't stop the occasional nightmare. I don't have nightmares of that incident since it's pretty well blocked out but I do have over some of the dumbest things imaginable. Yes, I am one of the few USAF personnel that have been diagnosed with PTSD. I imagine that there are one hell of a lot more USAF People that also have some degree of PTSD. But, back in those days, USAF just couldn't be afflicted with PTSD. It's a price I paid by honoring the Stand Down was never in question. To ignore the order would have resulted in my being Court Martialed, found guilty and sentenced with a Felony forever. The repercussions happened anyway but not caused by my actions. I was on the "Wrong" side of a line. Kent State was triggered by the blurring of that line by the Army.

Kent State was a National Guard unit, not regular Army, wasn't it?.

Yes they were. But they were wearing the pickle suits and fully armed with live ammo. It just got out of hand. This was generated by the US Army crossing the border out of South Vietnam. Until then, it was strictly a USAF war and it didn't make the news. But with the Army crossing over, the news went nuts over it. You see, USAF was there by request of those Governments. The Army was not. I know it's a stickler. But USAF was there to train, not get into the fights. USAF also provided the flying folks for the Ravens. In case you didn't know, that's a nice name for CIA. Our pilots would take a 6 month "Vacation" from the Service, be given discharges to make them no longer under the UCMJ. At the end of the 6 months, they would enlist back into USAF and carry on. The ones training the "Hill People" were active duty but barred from any combat or conflict. What is even sadder, the good that the Hill People did back then, they were declared Terrorist by the most recent regime and are being hunted. These are the folks that kept the NVA from invading. It was one thing to come down the Trail but another for them to stray. USAF went through 3 different regime and government style changes while they were there. But in 1973, USAF was asked to leave since the new "Government" was now communist and wanted to warm up to North Vietnam. USAF just packed it's bags and went home.
 

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