Humanism and social change

[Carol]

When we had Liberal Education, we used the Conceptual Method. The Conceptual Method is teaching increasingly complex concepts. It is a totally different way of thinking, than how children have been prepared to think since the 1958 National Defense Education Act. Following that Act, we went to the Behaviost Method, which is also used for training dogs. It relies on rewards for punishments for getting children to remember the "right answer", like we teach a dog the right response to a command. The social ramifications of this are great. One ramification is, aruging "you are right", or "no, you are wrong", as through life is a division of good and evil, right and wrong, as opposed to understanding concepts that are neither right or wrong. This has made our discussions really challenging. Some of them go no where at all, and this thread is about getting beyond this barrier to communication, by increasing awareness of humanism and its conflict with religion. Also, awareness of what humanism had to do with social change and the Democracy of the USA.

We can not understand our democracy without understanding humanism, and unfortunately many Christians oppose humanism. This seems especially true in Texas, a state that buys so many text books, it effects the whole text book industry and what all our children are taught. To discuss this problem we need a good understanding of humanism and what it has to do with the United States being a democracy. The google links might help us discuss the importance, or problem with, humanism, in our school system, and to our whole nation, effcting everything from politics and culture.

Humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaHumanism is an approach in study, philosophy, or practice that focuses on human values and concerns. The term has a complex history and is used to mean ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism - Cached - Similar

Renaissance humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRenaissance humanism was an activity of cultural and educational reform, engaged in by scholars, writers, and civic leaders who are today known as humanists ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_humanism - Cached - Similar

 

[Carol]

The importance of this thread is Christianity supports autocracy, the enemy of democracy.
Christianity taught kings were chosen by God. The Bible promised God will provide our leaders. The bible tells slaves to be good slaves, because this honors God. Our concepts of human rights comes from outside the bible. Our democracy is the result to literacy in Greek and Roman classics. Prehaps we would benefit from awareness of this?

 

[lizzie]

The importance of this thread is Christianity supports autocracy, the enemy of democracy.

We are not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.

Christianity taught kings were chosen by God. The Bible promised God will provide our leaders. The bible tells slaves to be good slaves, because this honors God.

It really doesn’t matter. Our country was not founded on Christianity, but rather with a written guarantee that we have inalienable rights bestowed by “the creator”, as opposed to rights bestowed by man or government. The Bible is irrelevant as a context for governance in this country.

Our democracy is the result to literacy in Greek and Roman classics. Prehaps we would benefit from awareness of this?

Again, we’re not a democracy.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It really doesn’t matter. Our country was not founded on Christianity, but rather with a written guarantee that we have inalienable rights bestowed by “the creator”, as opposed to rights bestowed by man or government. The Bible is irrelevant as a context for governance in this country.

ROFL

Yeah, that is why we have so many atheist politicians.

But apparently humanists can't figure out Newtonian physics.

psik

 

[lizzie]

It really doesn’t matter. Our country was not founded on Christianity, but rather with a written guarantee that we have inalienable rights bestowed by “the creator”, as opposed to rights bestowed by man or government. The Bible is irrelevant as a context for governance in this country.

ROFL

Yeah, that is why we have so many atheist politicians.

But apparently humanists can't figure out Newtonian physics.

psik

There's a fairly distinct difference between Deists and Christians. Our country was founded primarily by Deists- some of the them Christian, but certainly not all, and a sprinkling of Atheists and general mystics in there as well.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It really doesn’t matter. Our country was not founded on Christianity, but rather with a written guarantee that we have inalienable rights bestowed by “the creator”, as opposed to rights bestowed by man or government. The Bible is irrelevant as a context for governance in this country.

ROFL

Yeah, that is why we have so many atheist politicians.

But apparently humanists can't figure out Newtonian physics.

psik

There's a fairly distinct difference between Deists and Christians. Our country was founded primarily by Deists- some of the them Christian, but certainly not all, and a sprinkling of Atheists and general mystics in there as well.

The Founding Fathers were an elite minority. I don't think they have all that much to do with what is going on in most American's heads today. Unfortunate but true. I don't doubt that there are plenty of atheist politicians that go to church every Sunday and tell their Christian constituents what they want to hear.

psik

 

[Carol]

The importance of this thread is Christianity supports autocracy, the enemy of democracy.

We are not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.

Christianity taught kings were chosen by God. The Bible promised God will provide our leaders. The bible tells slaves to be good slaves, because this honors God.

It really doesn’t matter. Our country was not founded on Christianity, but rather with a written guarantee that we have inalienable rights bestowed by “the creator”, as opposed to rights bestowed by man or government. The Bible is irrelevant as a context for governance in this country.

Our democracy is the result to literacy in Greek and Roman classics. Prehaps we would benefit from awareness of this?

Again, we’re not a democracy.

In 1835 tocqueville's book "Democracy in America" was published. To the whole world the US was a democracy with a republican form of government. This democracy was founded on Greek and Roman classics. It begins with the philosophy of Athens, and with humanism, that was spread throughout the nation through public education.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundament moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.

This is printed in a grade school series of text books called Democracy Series, used in 1940 to moblize the US for the second world war, and maintian patriotic support of the war.

The bible is a book about kings and slaves, and is not the blue print for democracy or a republic. It makes perfect sense that people who study nothing but the bible would argue the US is not a democracy, and that would be most Republicans. The opposite of democracy is autocracy and Christianity supported the autocracies of Europe. Because of these people, the US had never fully manifested a democracy. It could be said that Christianity is our worst enemy because it relies on theology instead of the information citizens must have, and this makes human beings subjects, not citizens. Christianity puttting its religious truth, where good information should be, has prevented the masses from being well informed. Ignorance is our worst enemy.

 

[zzzz]

The bible is a book about kings and slaves, and is not the blue print for democracy or a republic. It makes perfect sense that people who study nothing but the bible would argue the US is not a democracy, and that would be most Republicans. The opposite of democracy is autocracy and Christianity supported the autocracies of Europe. Because of these people, the US had never fully manifested a democracy. It could be said that Christianity is our worst enemy because it relies on theology instead of the information citizens must have, and this makes human beings subjects, not citizens. Christianity puttting its religious truth, where good information should be, has prevented the masses from being well informed. Ignorance is our worst enemy.

The Bible was not a blueprint for the United States. Many of the founding fathers believed in God but they formed the Constitution and this country as a representative democracy, not a true democracy. The world was a different place back then and a true democracy was not realistically feasible for the 13 colonies. A true democracy allows everyone a vote and the majority wins. The founding fathers also realized that a true democracy could not function as a viable government and the closest they could come to a democracy was a representative democracy where the people elected representatives to represent them in a governmental body to conduct governmental business. They realized the volatility of the electorate and purposely created 2 bodies to conduct business and to have each body elected to different terms to provide a leveling influence on law. A democracy could make a law one day and a week later void it. The will of the people changes daily.

Throughout history mankind has been ruled by leaders of nations/tribes/groups. Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other religions all worked to some degree and in hand with these leaders. It was not these religions that kept true democracy at bay but realism that true democracy was not feasible. It appears that mankind cannot live without an authority figure in charge. Look around you, in sports team, any grouping of people there are always people who are in charge because that is the way human beings are. If no one was in charge nothing could get accomplished. This is what human beings have done throughout time, elected or appointed leaders. Sure some are bad but they give people a point of reference and someone to blame or praise.

 

[JBeukema]

We do not approve of false humanity...

 

[JBeukema]

One ramification is, aruging "you are right", or "no, you are wrong", as through life is a division of good and evil, right and wrong

Sometimes it really is that simple.

Also, awareness of what humanism had to do with social change and the Democracy of the USA.

The FF abhorred unabashed eemocracy with good reason

Try reading more than wikipedia.

 

[lizzie]

It makes perfect sense that people who study nothing but the bible would argue the US is not a democracy, and that would be most Republicans.

Do you honestly believe that most Republicans are Bible-thumping morons? Are you kidding?

Because of these people, the US had never fully manifested a democracy.

I'm not even Christian, and I say thank God for that blessing in disguise. A fully manifested democracy is nothing more than a blueprint for achieving socialism.

It could be said that Christianity is our worst enemy because it relies on theology instead of the information citizens must have,

If our country was a theocracy, and our constitution based on the Bible, I might say you have a legitimate point.

 

[Carol]

The bible is a book about kings and slaves, and is not the blue print for democracy or a republic. It makes perfect sense that people who study nothing but the bible would argue the US is not a democracy, and that would be most Republicans. The opposite of democracy is autocracy and Christianity supported the autocracies of Europe. Because of these people, the US had never fully manifested a democracy. It could be said that Christianity is our worst enemy because it relies on theology instead of the information citizens must have, and this makes human beings subjects, not citizens. Christianity puttting its religious truth, where good information should be, has prevented the masses from being well informed. Ignorance is our worst enemy.

The Bible was not a blueprint for the United States. Many of the founding fathers believed in God but they formed the Constitution and this country as a representative democracy, not a true democracy. The world was a different place back then and a true democracy was not realistically feasible for the 13 colonies. A true democracy allows everyone a vote and the majority wins. The founding fathers also realized that a true democracy could not function as a viable government and the closest they could come to a democracy was a representative democracy where the people elected representatives to represent them in a governmental body to conduct governmental business. They realized the volatility of the electorate and purposely created 2 bodies to conduct business and to have each body elected to different terms to provide a leveling influence on law. A democracy could make a law one day and a week later void it. The will of the people changes daily.

Throughout history mankind has been ruled by leaders of nations/tribes/groups. Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other religions all worked to some degree and in hand with these leaders. It was not these religions that kept true democracy at bay but realism that true democracy was not feasible. It appears that mankind cannot live without an authority figure in charge. Look around you, in sports team, any grouping of people there are always people who are in charge because that is the way human beings are. If no one was in charge nothing could get accomplished. This is what human beings have done throughout time, elected or appointed leaders. Sure some are bad but they give people a point of reference and someone to blame or praise.

You have provided a good explanation, except for one little point, that makes a huge difference. In the US we might be lead by human beings, but we are not ruled by human beings. We are rule by law.

Religion, pick anyone you want, tells us we are ruled by a God, and are born into our position in life. Religions are autocratic, a hierarchy of authority, and divided between those who rule and those who serve the rulers. Before the rediscovery of ancient Greeks and Romans philosophy, there was only humans ruling over others humans. This is a matter of how we reason things through, with religion, or science and rationale. The Greek and Roman classics gave us reason and rationale, which is not inherent in religion.

Internet forums give us a valuable example of this principle. Friist, everyone makes it very clear, these forums are not democracy. These forums are private property and the owners and moderators can do as they please, and everyone else is subject to them. This is clearly a divison of those who rule and those who are subject to their rule. Cussing and attacking people is allowed, even when rules this is not allowed, but in these forums people are ruled by humans, not the law. Only when a moderator thinks someone has gone too far will action be taken. May be the moderator is having a bad day, or has misunderstood something. It doesn't matter why the moderator takes action, and those subject to the moderator have no resource. What rules is a human being, not law.

To be rule by law, or reason, the rules must be put in writing, and impersonally applied to everyone. Say the rule says we can not cuss or attack others. Then it is a matter of someone either violated the rule or did not. Then there can be trial by jury, and the accused has the opportunity for defense. Action is taken on the violation of the rule, not the degree of the violation. In law, there are various degrees of murder, and punishment depends on the degree of the violation, but these are determined by law, not humans ruling by whim, as they do in these forums, and as the Gods are said to do things. But by rule by law, you can not be banned because God or a moderator doesn't like you or is having a bad day, or misunderstood your point.

See? that is the difference between rule by law and being citizens, or humans ruling over subjects, as Gods rule over their subjects. This is a very important difference, and this is the difference we are fighting in the mid east. They are ruled by religion and tradation and everyone argues in these forums that they are private property and mods can do as they please, so why are we fighting in Agahanistan? If our economy collaspes, we will revert to humans ruling over humans, because the masses no longer understand the principles of democracy. They will pick up their weapons and fight each other for control, because that is what their education left them to understand. We will have anacrhy until we we have autocracy, but we will not return to democracy, because we are no longer conscious of what that is, and those good Christian republicans make sure we will never know what democracy is, because they want you to know God rules, and He rewards and punishes people as He see fit. Their religious belief is not compatable with democracy.

I am afraid we have fought every war for nothing. We have no understanding of rule by reason and how important education is to manifesting the consciousness essential to democracy. Look at all the arguments for humans ruling over humans.

 

[Carol]

It makes perfect sense that people who study nothing but the bible would argue the US is not a democracy, and that would be most Republicans.

Do you honestly believe that most Republicans are Bible-thumping morons? Are you kidding?

Because of these people, the US had never fully manifested a democracy.

I'm not even Christian, and I say thank God for that blessing in disguise. A fully manifested democracy is nothing more than a blueprint for achieving socialism.

It could be said that Christianity is our worst enemy because it relies on theology instead of the information citizens must have,

If our country was a theocracy, and our constitution based on the Bible, I might say you have a legitimate point.

According to this site 83% of US citizens, consider themselves to be Christian. I will attempt to reword what I said above, to argue your point that the US is not a theocracy.
If we are or are not a theocracy, is a matter of consciousness. According to the poll 83% understanding the reasoning of Christianity. What percent to do you believe understand the reasoning of Greek and Roman classics? It is possible to have both Christian awareness and awareness of Greek and Roman classics, but this surely would not be the majority, and that is why I write. Christianity without knowledge of Greek and Roman classics is not a good thing. Without knowledge of Greek and Roman classics they will manifest a theocracy.

Sparta was a socialist/military state, Athens was not. Sparta did not have family values, Athens did. Sparta determine citizens needs and held responsibility for meeting them, Athens did not directly meet the needs of the people. In Athens, always the responsibility of the family fell on the family. But Athens did provide government work, so that people could earn a decent living and still have the time and energy to participate in governing decissions. In some Christian religious colonies where leaders had direct or indirect knowledge of Greek and Roman classics, they followed the Athenian model of compulser participation in governing decissions. Now our democracy comes from Athens, why do you say it leads to socialism? It was Sparta that was socialist, not Athens.

What do you think is better than democracy? Actually democracy is like milk. It can be plain milk or strawberry flavored milk, or chocolate falavored milk. That is all governments are different blends of autocracy and democracy., different flavors. It can be said, people in the mid east have a high degree of democracy, and that citizens of the US actually have a low degree of democracy, because in the mid east the government over the people is weak, and in the west, governments over the people are increasingly bureaucratic rule of the people, reducing the people to pretty powerless subjects. The effort to govern over every little thing we do, with regulations, laws, required permission, is destroying our democracy as Tocqueville pridicted.

 

[Carol]

One ramification is, aruging "you are right", or "no, you are wrong", as through life is a division of good and evil, right and wrong

Sometimes it really is that simple.

Also, awareness of what humanism had to do with social change and the Democracy of the USA.

The FF abhorred unabashed eemocracy with good reason

Try reading more than wikipedia.

You are right. My granddaughter getting tattoos and putting studs in her face is just wrong, so I have stopped supporting her with rides to work and child care. She removes the studs and stops tattooing herself, or she gets nothing from me. My family duties do not comply me to help my grandchildren, right? And if something bad happens because I was not there when needed, oh well. There is right and wrong, and I am sure of which is which. ( which smilie is best for letting people know we are being sarcassistic?)

Every day, I listen to a college lectures on DVD or CD, and I enjoy my rather large library of non fiction books. I use Wikipedia for you all. However, I will admit, when we get too much in our heads, it is almost as bad as knowing nothing at all. The world becomes a lot less black and white, and we are much more aware of how much we do not know.

This might help us better understand the importance of democracy as a part of the blend in republic, and its importance to balanced power. It can also lead to an interesting discussion of the fall of Roma and possible fall of the US.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/cicero/#SH7c
c. On the Republic
This dialogue is, unfortunately, in an extremely mutilated condition. It describes the ideal commonwealth, such as might be brought about by the orator described in On the Orator. In doing so it tries to provide philosophical underpinnings for existing Roman institutions and to demonstrate that until recently (the dialogue is set in 129 BC) Roman history has been essentially the increasing perfection of the Republic, which is now superior to any other government because it is a mixed government. By this Cicero means that it combines elements of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy in the right balance; the contemporary reader may well disagree. But even this government can be destroyed and is being destroyed by the moral decay of the aristocracy. Thus Cicero describes the importance of an active life of virtue, the foundations of community, including the community of all human beings, the role of the statesman, and the concept of natural law. It also includes the famous Dream of Scipio.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Internet forums give us a valuable example of this principle. Friist, everyone makes it very clear, these forums are not democracy. These forums are private property and the owners and moderators can do as they please, and everyone else is subject to them. This is clearly a divison of those who rule and those who are subject to their rule. Cussing and attacking people is allowed, even when rules this is not allowed, but in these forums people are ruled by humans, not the law. Only when a moderator thinks someone has gone too far will action be taken. May be the moderator is having a bad day, or has misunderstood something. It doesn't matter why the moderator takes action, and those subject to the moderator have no resource. What rules is a human being, not law.

ROFL

I have been banned from 5 forums. LOL

People that think we are ruled by law believe abstractions are more important than reality. People make the laws and people decide how to enforce them or not enforce them.

psik

 

[Carol]

We do not approve of false humanity...

You may not approve of life either, but do you have something better to offer?

Perahps you should use wikipedia before posting? Do you know what humanism is, and what it had to do with social change when everyone assumed the rule of kings?

 

[lizzie]

What do you think is better than democracy?

Minarchy.

 

[Carol]

What do you think is better than democracy?

Minarchy.

What to explain minarchy? I never learned of it. Did you mean monarchy, like in the Lion King Disney movie and the bible?

 

[JBeukema]

In the US we might be lead by human beings, but we are not ruled by human beings. We are rule by law.

They who control the law and its enforcement control they who are controlled by the law.

To be rule by law, or reason, the rules must be put in writing,

Historically, that's not actually true.

 

[JBeukema]

I have been banned from 5 forums. LOL

\Congrats. I think I've beeen banned from this forum more times that that