How would this have gone differently if guns were illegal?

[kaz]

Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

Single cause fallacy

 

[kaz]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Um...so you find it odd that places with higher crime rates have more people in prison. That confuses you. Seriously?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The US government has adopted policies that ensure racial hatred and violence will increase. It's all part of the divide and conquer mentality that progressives have. Unity is never their goal. They only thrive when people are miserable and at each others throats.

Switzerland is expensive as hell to live in, and 99.5% Caucasian.

Violence in Europe is increasing at a rapid rate. What planet do you live on again? The UK is leading the pack.. They witnessed a 77% increase in violent crime over a period of a few years thanks to progressive policies.

"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.
Opposition leaders said the disclosures were a "damning indictment" of the Government's failure to tackle deep-rooted social problems.
The figures combined crime statistics for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The UK had a greater number of murders in 2007 than any other EU country – 927 – and at a relative rate higher than most western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain."

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Gun crime in the US is decreasing, save in progressive controlled cities. There it is either increasing or holding steady.

You just say a few things then shove in "progressives" every so often.

Do you know what the biggest problem in the US is right now? Both the Republicans and Democrats. Don't kid yourself that the republican policies are in any way designed to unite people. They're policies will only unite people if everyone stops supporting the democrats and loves the Republicans, and it isn't going to happen, is it?

Basically both sides spend their whole time fighting each other and as little to no time actually trying to find out what is the way to make things actually work.

As for the UK and Europe. Yes, the UK went through a period of a rise in crime. This was generally due to a rise in gangs from other countries, mostly Jamaica, coming in and changing how crime was being conducted in the UK. However what the police and government did was tackle the problem, and the problem is being reduced. In the US all that would have happened would be each side would have slagged each other off for causing the problem and done nothing about it.

UK crime rates have been going down for more than 10 years.

Yes, the UK has a higher murder rate than many European countries. Norway had, in one set of stats a more than double murder rate, however I get the feeling that was because of that one killing that took place in 2011.
However the "really high" murder rate in the UK is 1.0 per 100,000. Compared to a range of about 0.6 to 1.0 being the norm for European countries. Compared to 4.7 for the US, or 10.8 for Louisiana, or 4.6 for Alaska.

You say gun stats are going down. Alaska's isn't. Their 4.6 is up from 3.1 in 2009.

Louisana's is up from 1999 when it was 10.7, it goes up, comes down, goes up, comes down. It's lower than the 1990s when it was getting up to 20, however it isn't going below 10 where it was in the 1960s.

Then again a state like New York is seeing murder rates at "only" 3.3 which has been going down, or Connecticut which is at 2.4 and has been dropping after a rise around 2010.
Seems a lot of the murder rate in the US is dropping because of more liberal states seeing more of a drop.

As for UK violent crime states. Again, the UK reports a lot more than the US, it's difficult to compare.

The crime rate in the UK has been rising for the last 25 years. The "dip" in reported crimes came when the Metropolitan Police decided to classify all crimes at a single address as one crime. So, take your average apartment block. 18 crimes go down there in a weekend. According to the police that is ONE crime.



Police did alter crime figures, admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe

"Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe told MPs that the preliminary results of an internal inquiry had already indicated that some of the allegations by Met Pc James Patrick that crimes such as burglary and rape had been wrongly downgraded or written off were accurate.

Sir Bernard’s admission came during a tense appearance in front of the Commons Public Administration Committee during which he also admitted to inadvertently misquoting a report he had written himself."

Police did alter crime figures admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

There have been changes in the way crimes were reported. However the police under-reporting crimes isn't new. It's not new for the UK, it's not new for the first world either. The US has major under-reporting of crimes too.

The article you reported is from London. Does it happen elsewhere? Probably. Was it happening before? Probably. Does this mean there was a dip in the statistics because the Met Police were under-reporting crimes? Not necessarily. Again, what was going on before.

Manipulating crime statistics

"The main problem is that the data reported in this annual report are among the most unreliable of all social data. They often become mired in politics and bureaucratic manipulation to put forward a positive image about the criminal justice system's response to crime. In fact, in recent years many police departments have been caught "cooking the books" concerning their official crime statistics. Some police administrators may knowingly falsify crime reports by undervaluing the cost of stolen goods, or report a "larceny from a person" that was an ordinary pick pocketing as a "robbery" (or vice versa), or even exaggerate the number of "gangs," and "gang members” in order to get federal funding to create or increase the size of a "gang unit."

Expert FBI Manipulated Crime Stats to Show Increase in Mass Shootings Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

"
The Federal Bureau of Investigation purposely distorted its latest round of annual crime statistics in an attempt to make mass shootings appear more prevalent, an expert criminologist says."

Crime statistics are what they are. You have to understand them, and that can be very difficult.

As I said, comparing British violent crime statistics with US violent crime statistics is a minefield. The US's version of "violent crime" is so different from the UK's version. Also things like rape are treated differently so end up with different statistics, ie, the US's rate is extremely low for what probably actually exists.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Um...so you find it odd that places with higher crime rates have more people in prison. That confuses you. Seriously?

I find it odd that people say locking people up rather than any other form of crime prevention works. Because in the US people are locked up like kids eat candy. 707 people per 100,000 compared to 148 for the UK. Seriously?

Also, Louisiana having the highest rate of incarceration with their private prison system which encourages the police to lock people up and make them come back in the future, rather than rehabilitation. Louisiana also has a really bad crime rate. It's not working.

However people come out with the simple stuff, "criminals need to be responsible for their actions", the problem is who is responsible for the ineptitude of politicians who are in charge of a society which is broken and which is breeding criminals?

Yep, it's be the "criminals" again.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Guns aren't going to be illegal, so why ask?

 

[westwall]

The US government has adopted policies that ensure racial hatred and violence will increase. It's all part of the divide and conquer mentality that progressives have. Unity is never their goal. They only thrive when people are miserable and at each others throats.

Switzerland is expensive as hell to live in, and 99.5% Caucasian.

Violence in Europe is increasing at a rapid rate. What planet do you live on again? The UK is leading the pack.. They witnessed a 77% increase in violent crime over a period of a few years thanks to progressive policies.

"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.
Opposition leaders said the disclosures were a "damning indictment" of the Government's failure to tackle deep-rooted social problems.
The figures combined crime statistics for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The UK had a greater number of murders in 2007 than any other EU country – 927 – and at a relative rate higher than most western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain."

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Gun crime in the US is decreasing, save in progressive controlled cities. There it is either increasing or holding steady.

You just say a few things then shove in "progressives" every so often.

Do you know what the biggest problem in the US is right now? Both the Republicans and Democrats. Don't kid yourself that the republican policies are in any way designed to unite people. They're policies will only unite people if everyone stops supporting the democrats and loves the Republicans, and it isn't going to happen, is it?

Basically both sides spend their whole time fighting each other and as little to no time actually trying to find out what is the way to make things actually work.

As for the UK and Europe. Yes, the UK went through a period of a rise in crime. This was generally due to a rise in gangs from other countries, mostly Jamaica, coming in and changing how crime was being conducted in the UK. However what the police and government did was tackle the problem, and the problem is being reduced. In the US all that would have happened would be each side would have slagged each other off for causing the problem and done nothing about it.

UK crime rates have been going down for more than 10 years.

Yes, the UK has a higher murder rate than many European countries. Norway had, in one set of stats a more than double murder rate, however I get the feeling that was because of that one killing that took place in 2011.
However the "really high" murder rate in the UK is 1.0 per 100,000. Compared to a range of about 0.6 to 1.0 being the norm for European countries. Compared to 4.7 for the US, or 10.8 for Louisiana, or 4.6 for Alaska.

You say gun stats are going down. Alaska's isn't. Their 4.6 is up from 3.1 in 2009.

Louisana's is up from 1999 when it was 10.7, it goes up, comes down, goes up, comes down. It's lower than the 1990s when it was getting up to 20, however it isn't going below 10 where it was in the 1960s.

Then again a state like New York is seeing murder rates at "only" 3.3 which has been going down, or Connecticut which is at 2.4 and has been dropping after a rise around 2010.
Seems a lot of the murder rate in the US is dropping because of more liberal states seeing more of a drop.

As for UK violent crime states. Again, the UK reports a lot more than the US, it's difficult to compare.

The crime rate in the UK has been rising for the last 25 years. The "dip" in reported crimes came when the Metropolitan Police decided to classify all crimes at a single address as one crime. So, take your average apartment block. 18 crimes go down there in a weekend. According to the police that is ONE crime.



Police did alter crime figures, admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe

"Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe told MPs that the preliminary results of an internal inquiry had already indicated that some of the allegations by Met Pc James Patrick that crimes such as burglary and rape had been wrongly downgraded or written off were accurate.

Sir Bernard’s admission came during a tense appearance in front of the Commons Public Administration Committee during which he also admitted to inadvertently misquoting a report he had written himself."

Police did alter crime figures admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

There have been changes in the way crimes were reported. However the police under-reporting crimes isn't new. It's not new for the UK, it's not new for the first world either. The US has major under-reporting of crimes too.

The article you reported is from London. Does it happen elsewhere? Probably. Was it happening before? Probably. Does this mean there was a dip in the statistics because the Met Police were under-reporting crimes? Not necessarily. Again, what was going on before.

Manipulating crime statistics

"The main problem is that the data reported in this annual report are among the most unreliable of all social data. They often become mired in politics and bureaucratic manipulation to put forward a positive image about the criminal justice system's response to crime. In fact, in recent years many police departments have been caught "cooking the books" concerning their official crime statistics. Some police administrators may knowingly falsify crime reports by undervaluing the cost of stolen goods, or report a "larceny from a person" that was an ordinary pick pocketing as a "robbery" (or vice versa), or even exaggerate the number of "gangs," and "gang members” in order to get federal funding to create or increase the size of a "gang unit."

Expert FBI Manipulated Crime Stats to Show Increase in Mass Shootings Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

"
The Federal Bureau of Investigation purposely distorted its latest round of annual crime statistics in an attempt to make mass shootings appear more prevalent, an expert criminologist says."

Crime statistics are what they are. You have to understand them, and that can be very difficult.

As I said, comparing British violent crime statistics with US violent crime statistics is a minefield. The US's version of "violent crime" is so different from the UK's version. Also things like rape are treated differently so end up with different statistics, ie, the US's rate is extremely low for what probably actually exists.

So, the British falsified stats to show less crime than was actually occuring, and the US falsified data to show an increase.

You're not helping your cause.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Spain is slightly different thanks to the Moorish influence. The rest of Europe is mono cultural. Same religions, same ethnicity, same likes, same dislikes, same, same, same. It's hard to hate someone when they are basically the same as you.

My point is so long as you count gang related murders you get a skewed view of crime in the USA. I am not saying it's good or acceptable, I am saying that GANGS DON'T FOLLOW LAWS! Thus, any law you pass will affect only the law abiding and you will make the law abiding easy prey for the lawless.

A thinking person would wonder why every politician and rich person who is trying to take your guns away....is protected by people with guns.

If they truly believed their bullshit they would have no need of ARMED PRIVATE SECURITY details.

Now would they?

Spain isn't different at all. A poor understand of Europe might lead someone to think this.

Here's a basic map.

It shows only a little of what the issues in Spain are like.

The issues aren't anything to do with the Moors. The Moors were kicked out in 1492. They've had enough time to get over the Moors. Sure, you still have historical things, but they show the victory over the Moors more than anything else.

Madrid is the center of Spain. Extremadura, Castilla La Mancha and Castilla Leon cling to Madrid because they don't have much, they're poor regions with a lot of farming and a lot of emigration.
Catalonia, Galicia, Basque Country, Valencia, Canaries, Balearic Islands are the main players in the independence movements.

Here's a map of the Austro-Hungarian empire in 1910.

A map of what it looks like today.
Take Austria, 88% are German speakers, but then you have those who speak neighboring languages. There are plenty of Slovens in Carinthia, plenty of Hungarians and Croats in Burgenland.
Belgium is a country divided and which wants to split apart. Two languages, two different ethnic groups trying to live side by side and they hate each other.
Germans have been all over central Europe. You have a guy born in Opole in Poland, he goes and plays football for Germany because his father is a German nationalist but lives in the middle of Poland.

I could go on and on and on.

I understood your point about gang violence making crime rates look "bad". However my point was that the same is true in Europe. There is gang violence. It's a lot less than in the US because gang violence has been dealt with. However you seem to be passing off gang violence as acceptable because of lot of the time the general public doesn't feel it. But occasionally they do. And it has a massive impact on society. But no one wants to solve the problem.

Who likes living in a society where there are no go areas? I was in southern Africa last year. You simply don't go out after dark. I spoke to one guy who'd lived there his whole life. He just shrugged and said it was normal for him.

You say gangs don't follow the laws, again, passing off gangs as something that can be tolerates. Okay, if in the richest country in the world and the police can't get rid of gangs, the governments can't get rid of gangs, it's a pretty damning critic of the country, isn't it?

The issue is, the US does have a much higher rate of murder, it happens, Americans are being killed. Just because you stick them in a box with the label "criminals" on it, you therefore can make it acceptable. They're like cows. You go to the supermarket and their body parts are stuck in plastic, and they're called things like beef, it's not a cow any more. Just as a criminal is a human being rapped in plastic, stuck away in prison or in some inner city, and you forget they're human beings.

This doesn't stop the fact that the US crime and murder rate is appalling.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So, the British falsified stats to show less crime than was actually occuring, and the US falsified data to show an increase.

You're not helping your cause.

Seriously, do we have to play this little silly beggers game? I'm not interested in little tit for tat bullshit, okay? |

Either you use your brain to find the truth, or you can get lost.

If you seriously couldn't get the point that was being made, then you're probably not worth talking to.

So, here's the question of the day. Are you going to take this seriously, or are you going to play a little fighting game where you try and come out as the winner style bullcrap?

 

[SwimExpert]

What do you mean by "it's guns, guns, everywhere"?

Having trouble learning how to speakeh da angrish?

Again, have you actually been to Switzerland?

Evasion noted.

 

[westwall]

So, the British falsified stats to show less crime than was actually occuring, and the US falsified data to show an increase.

You're not helping your cause.

Seriously, do we have to play this little silly beggers game? I'm not interested in little tit for tat bullshit, okay? |

Either you use your brain to find the truth, or you can get lost.

If you seriously couldn't get the point that was being made, then you're probably not worth talking to.

So, here's the question of the day. Are you going to take this seriously, or are you going to play a little fighting game where you try and come out as the winner style bullcrap?

What tit for tat are you peaking of? I merely reiterated the facts as they were presented.

I use my brain all the time.

Define "truth". That is a religious term for the most part and as I am a scientist I rarely invoke that word.

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What do you mean by "it's guns, guns, everywhere"?

Having trouble learning how to speakeh da angrish?

Again, have you actually been to Switzerland?

Evasion noted.

How is asking you a question evasion?

Oh, wait, it isn't. You write some bull about Switzerland based on the information you've gathered through gun magazines and think what you've said actually tallies with what Switzerland is like.
I have family living in Switzerland. It ain't like you say it is.

You're evading my question, btw.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What tit for tat are you peaking of? I merely reiterated the facts as they were presented.

I use my brain all the time.

Define "truth". That is a religious term for the most part and as I am a scientist I rarely invoke that word.

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?

The tit for tat where I say something then you ask a silly question that derails the point.

The "truth" is what actually happened or happens. Most aren't looking for the truth, most are looking to make sure their distortion gains prominence.

And your last sentence is again, another tit for tat bull.

 

[westwall]

What tit for tat are you peaking of? I merely reiterated the facts as they were presented.

I use my brain all the time.

Define "truth". That is a religious term for the most part and as I am a scientist I rarely invoke that word.

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?

The tit for tat where I say something then you ask a silly question that derails the point.

The "truth" is what actually happened or happens. Most aren't looking for the truth, most are looking to make sure their distortion gains prominence.

And your last sentence is again, another tit for tat bull.

Explain how it is a tit for tat bullshit post. I'm truly curious.

As far as truth go's there isn't any. Truth is a religious concept. It is a spiritual quest. The world that we live in is a cause and effect world, thus it is interested in facts. There are facts, which are immutable, and then there are "truths" that change based on the perspective of the viewer.

 

[SwimExpert]

What do you mean by "it's guns, guns, everywhere"?

Having trouble learning how to speakeh da angrish?

Again, have you actually been to Switzerland?

Evasion noted.

How is asking you a question evasion?

Oh, wait, it isn't. You write some bull about Switzerland based on the information you've gathered through gun magazines and think what you've said actually tallies with what Switzerland is like.
I have family living in Switzerland. It ain't like you say it is.

You're evading my question, btw.

So, you try to evade and drag the discussion on a tangent, and I'm evading by not taking the bait?

Oh, btw, I don't read gun magazines.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What tit for tat are you peaking of? I merely reiterated the facts as they were presented.

I use my brain all the time.

Define "truth". That is a religious term for the most part and as I am a scientist I rarely invoke that word.

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?

The tit for tat where I say something then you ask a silly question that derails the point.

The "truth" is what actually happened or happens. Most aren't looking for the truth, most are looking to make sure their distortion gains prominence.

And your last sentence is again, another tit for tat bull.

Explain how it is a tit for tat bullshit post. I'm truly curious.

As far as truth go's there isn't any. Truth is a religious concept. It is a spiritual quest. The world that we live in is a cause and effect world, thus it is interested in facts. There are facts, which are immutable, and then there are "truths" that change based on the perspective of the viewer.

Well that's my point completely derailed. Thank you. Bye.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What do you mean by "it's guns, guns, everywhere"?

Having trouble learning how to speakeh da angrish?

Again, have you actually been to Switzerland?

Evasion noted.

How is asking you a question evasion?

Oh, wait, it isn't. You write some bull about Switzerland based on the information you've gathered through gun magazines and think what you've said actually tallies with what Switzerland is like.
I have family living in Switzerland. It ain't like you say it is.

You're evading my question, btw.

So, you try to evade and drag the discussion on a tangent, and I'm evading by not taking the bait?

Oh, btw, I don't read gun magazines.

What is it today (is it just today or is this just the norm) with people being just completely idiotic?

 

[westwall]

What tit for tat are you peaking of? I merely reiterated the facts as they were presented.

I use my brain all the time.

Define "truth". That is a religious term for the most part and as I am a scientist I rarely invoke that word.

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?

The tit for tat where I say something then you ask a silly question that derails the point.

The "truth" is what actually happened or happens. Most aren't looking for the truth, most are looking to make sure their distortion gains prominence.

And your last sentence is again, another tit for tat bull.

Explain how it is a tit for tat bullshit post. I'm truly curious.

As far as truth go's there isn't any. Truth is a religious concept. It is a spiritual quest. The world that we live in is a cause and effect world, thus it is interested in facts. There are facts, which are immutable, and then there are "truths" that change based on the perspective of the viewer.

Well that's my point completely derailed. Thank you. Bye.

I'm sorry you're not capable of carrying on a legit discussion. Take some rhetoric classes and then come back.

 

[westwall]

What do you mean by "it's guns, guns, everywhere"?

Having trouble learning how to speakeh da angrish?

Again, have you actually been to Switzerland?

Evasion noted.

How is asking you a question evasion?

Oh, wait, it isn't. You write some bull about Switzerland based on the information you've gathered through gun magazines and think what you've said actually tallies with what Switzerland is like.
I have family living in Switzerland. It ain't like you say it is.

You're evading my question, btw.

So, you try to evade and drag the discussion on a tangent, and I'm evading by not taking the bait?

Oh, btw, I don't read gun magazines.

What is it today (is it just today or is this just the norm) with people being just completely idiotic?

YOU are the one throwing the temper tantrum buckwheat. I asked you legit questions and you decide to take your ball and go home. Well, go home, junior.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm sorry you're not capable of carrying on a legit discussion. Take some rhetoric classes and then come back.

Bull, you're simply messing it up, then blaming me. I'm sorry, but you need to figure out what the hell you were saying, you're derailing like nobody's business. But hey, if you feel good about yourself pretending that you didn't, and that this discussion has ended up like a pile of poo, then you just go ahead and congratulate yourself. I'm done with your nonsense.

 

[westwall]

I'm sorry you're not capable of carrying on a legit discussion. Take some rhetoric classes and then come back.

Bull, you're simply messing it up, then blaming me. I'm sorry, but you need to figure out what the hell you were saying, you're derailing like nobody's business. But hey, if you feel good about yourself pretending that you didn't, and that this discussion has ended up like a pile of poo, then you just go ahead and congratulate yourself. I'm done with your nonsense.

I asked you a specific question. Try answering it instead of whining about it being unfair. Your "truth" is true only to you. I deal in facts, not opinions, though I will certainly offer up an informed opinion if asked to do so.