How will US economy ever recover?

[boedicca]

Recessions happen on average every 7 years. we always recover.

And on that recovery topic (posted in another thread, but germane here as well):

 

[editec]

How will US economy ever recover?

when the fundamental human drive of greed is finally addressed as the key component to our systemic demise.....

A mighty long winded way of saying NEVER, Sparky.

 

[editec]

poor people are funny. The economy is already recovering. What the poor and middle class will do is wait to invest until every possible positive bit of information is in, after most of the money is already made then they jump in.

Are you so removed from the masses that you believe that poor and truly "middle class" people truly invest?

At best they save for a rainy day and those rainy days have been coming hard and fast in their neck of the woods, mate.

 

[topspin]

Like I said poor people are funny. Ahh 60 percent is about the number of people who own stocks. about 3 percent have over a million in stocks, and the average retiree has about $100,000 in stocks. Now, you want to talk about how detached I am?

 

[editec]

We've never had a recession in which the government did so much to undermine the private sector and retard private job creation. You are making the mistake of assuming that the private sector will not alter its behavior no matter the taxes and regulatory burdens placed upon it.

You're wrong.

We have achieved a critical mass of Big Government Cronyism which risks the U.S falling into unrecoverable slow growth high employment European style statism.

Here's a good read explaining the nature of our Ruling Class (the underlying cause of why recovery will not be healthy):

The American Spectator : America's Ruling Class -- And the Perils of Revolution

Then, after those in power changed their plans from buying toxic assets to buying up equity in banks and major industries but refused to explain why, when they reasserted their right to decide ad hoc on these and so many other matters, supposing them to be beyond the general public's understanding, the American people started referring to those in and around government as the "ruling class." And in fact Republican and Democratic office holders and their retinues show a similar presumption to dominate and fewer differences in tastes, habits, opinions, and sources of income among one another than between both and the rest of the country. They think, look, and act as a class.

Bingo!

Today's ruling class, from Boston to San Diego, was formed by an educational system that exposed them to the same ideas and gave them remarkably uniform guidance, as well as tastes and habits. These amount to a social canon of judgments about good and evil, complete with secular sacred history, sins (against minorities and the environment), and saints. Using the right words and avoiding the wrong ones when referring to such matters -- speaking the "in" language -- serves as a badge of identity. Regardless of what business or profession they are in, their road up included government channels and government money because, as government has grown, its boundary with the rest of American life has become indistinct. Many began their careers in government and leveraged their way into the private sector. Some, e.g., Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner, never held a non-government job. Hence whether formally in government, out of it, or halfway, America's ruling class speaks the language and has the tastes, habits, and tools of bureaucrats. It rules uneasily over the majority of Americans not oriented to government.

Angelo M. Codevilla is professor emeritus of international relations at Boston University.

While I woulde certainly argue some of the points found in this thought piece, Professor Codeevilla and are are in agreement on the major thust of his complaint.

We live in a highly CLASSIST society.

For those of us sleeping in the second or third or steerage class billets on this ship of State, this is not quite so obvious.

One really needs to study the interlocking power structure of our monied interests and the governments, and foundationsm and the universities, too that they control to filly appreciate just how FEW people really have the reins of power and control in their hands.

Some of us think this is a conservative plot Others call it a liberal plot (as Codevilla does).

I think that identifying these people in that duelistic way is BOUND to mislead people and I think that this propensity to mislead people into left/right Lib/con thinking is entirely BY DESIGN.

Follow the money or follow the power, folks. They lead to the same CLASS of people.

And by class I do NOT merely means people with a LOT of money.

You people with a LOT of money are no less at risk of being fleeced by this Kakatocracy than most of us with NO MONEY.

The ARROGANCE of this class of insiders is unsufferable.

The very best intenting of them are merely condenscending in their belief that the rest of society are populated by chi9ldren who need their guidance in pretty much every aspect of life.

The solution to such blantant arrogance can be only found in some of the bloodiest chapters of human history.

Thank you, Boed, for pointing us in the direction of this encapsulation of what our society has become.

 

[hipeter924]

The way I see it is that there is an endless cycle of boom and bust, usually revolution against the rich occurs in a bust period such as with the French Revolution or the Russian Revolution. There won't be an end in sight until either the boom and bust economics of today is replaced by something else or until poverty and the lower class ceases to exist.

 

[Mr Natural]

We'll all be on Easy Street once the Bush tax cuts kick in.

 

[GHook93]

So what is your answer? Protectionism? Doesn't seem to work well. America believe it or not still produces the the majority of the world's goods, with China catching up.

I went through every slide, the one that stuck out the most was the average Federal work makes 60% then the private worker! That is a bad stat. Fed workers get paid through taxation not profits. So go back to Reagans best quote, "In troubling times like these government is not the solution to our problems, Government is the problem."

Outsourcing occurs because:
(1) Taxation in America is rapidly becoming the highest in the WORLD.
(2) Healthcare benefits, that cost corporations a ton, puts our corps at huge disadvantage.
(3) We over-regulate like crazy, including but not limited to, evironmental, worker's rights, union's rights and safety
(4) We put in so much red-tape that its becomes a barrier to business
(5) Payroll tax? What a shame.
(6) Since Clinton made student loans non-dischargable, college education has shot through the roof, even for instate and shit schools. Student loan debt has cripple the graduate, its become to many like a second mortgage (or a second first mortgage). Shithole University, which gets laughed at by employers, should not be able to charge $15K in tuition a year and lenders should give loans to cover these schools!
(7) Since Clinton put into overdrive the Community Reinvestment Act, the brain child of Carter, Banks were forced to toss out matrixes, open up the subprime market, do retarded stated loans and shoot property values to artificially high levels. Bush ignored the growing damage, but Clinton got the ball rolling!
(8) Pension plans are high way robbery. Take out the State Pensions and nearly every state has a surplus. They are unsustainable and they should be outlawed. Back in the 50s 90% of the private businesses has pension plans, now less than 2% have them. Why? Because they are unsustainable and cripple a company. Federal and State government workers pension plans are doing a similar thing to State and Federal budgets. They are shame. Individualized employer retirement plans like 401(k) and IRAs are the way government workers need to go!

Best bet
(1) Fix Student Loans: Make colleges provide reasonable tuition by make student loans dischargable in many cases. That way banks wouldn't make STUPID loans. Tuition would come down.

(2) Fix Mortgage and Property Value: Push the loan modification into overdrive. Since we bailed out the banks, the banks should be forced to use that money, not for lending, but for modifying he current loans they have to make up for the decrease in property value.

(3) Outlaw all Federal and State Pension Plans.

(4) Just say no to cap and trade.

(5) Start to pull back regulations. Protect our water and air, but don't go over-board.

(6) Get rid of the income, capital gains, payroll, sales and corporate tax and replace it with the Fair Tax or VAT Tax. This would be more than enough to compete with the slave wages of the 3rd world!

(7) By god shrink government and spending.

(8) Get healthcare out of the employers hands. Employer based systems crippled our business's competitiveness and hurts the employee, who can't personalize their plans. Not saying going to a single payor, but do something to make it more on the individual level.

(9) Possibly do some protectionism. Industry subsidies and some protective tarriffs for vital industries like steel and agriculture.

(10) Restructure our free trade agreements to work for us.

(11) For god's sake end illegal immigrations. Don't sue States that are taking justifiable steps to end it, sue states that take unjustifable steps to povide sanctuary to illegals!

(12) Rein in on the Unions power. Unions have a place, but the most part they breed corruption and do far more worse then good.

 

[topspin]

Cut offensive attack military spending about 50 percent. Thus making converting it to defense spending. Legalize tax and regulate pot. that alone would just about pay for national healthcare.

 

[Againsheila]

If and when all the boomers retire, it will create a labor shortage in this country, which will cause salaries to rise for the middle class....that's my best guess.

and salaries are not rising in china for their lower and middle classes, not to the degree that it will help us....we got another 10-20 years before that happens and businesses have other countries to go to that pay less like vietnam and banglidesh and indonesia before it will "help" us.....besides the fact that China has been allowed to manipulate their yen (money) so that labor costs are still way cheaper there....we need to stop this manipulation.

Americans limited their children to less than replacement value. If it weren't for immigration, both legal and illegal, the salaries for the poor and middle class would have already risen. When the baby boomers retire, they're just gonna bring in more immigrants to take their places. Not good considering we don't have the resources to support those already here, and I'm talking about water and food. Seattle, hasn't built a new water reservoir since the 60's. The Puyallup Valley, the richest farmland in the world is now covered with warehouses.

 

[boedicca]

(6) Get rid of the income, capital gains, payroll, sales and corporate tax and replace it with the Fair Tax or VAT Tax.

A lot of good suggestions, except for VAT. VAT is a hidden tax added at each step of the supply chain. Taxes should be transparent. A Fair Tax or an end user Sales Tax which is separate from the purchase price accomplishes this.

I like Paul Ryan's Roadmap:

A Roadmap for America's Future | The Budget Committee Republicans

 

[Hugidwyn]

The U.S. economy, which was ten years ago this is no more.

America is living beyond its means absolutely: It produces 20% of world GDP, which is also mainly consists of services, and consumes 40%. Recipe from the U.S. is simple: having a major world currency, they always occupy a print money. As a result, the situation has reached the point that most of the assets do not represent themselves.

So talk about the second wave will or will not resemble paranoia. What is the second wave? But first there was no for real! The real fire crisis was flooded with money. Given that its core, the cause was fiat money.

America really is now bankrupt.

The financial situation of the United States is worse than the Americans think and deteriorating much faster. Another thing, again, the United States have the ability to print money. That is, they have an opportunity instead of treating stabbing pain reliever. Whether recovering from this patient? On the contrary. A patient who is unable to take drugs painkillers, even has a chance to recover, because he had no choice but to just try to recover.

Americans will have to reduce their consumption.

Forswear crow peck shit. Americans will be forced to do it.

 

[topspin]

that's true we have more than we did 10 years ago, and in ten years we'll have more than we do now.

 

[Hugidwyn]

that's true we have more than we did 10 years ago, and in ten years we'll have more than we do now.

Americans have eaten their own future.

All investments in shares, pension insurance, money market, bank deposits, all public pension liabilities become garbage. All generations of people over 50 will be pillaged to the skin. More precisely, it has already pillaged to the skin, just now is an audit of this phenomenon, called the financial crisis.

The main victims will be workers in the services, which created the illusion of continuous carnival of wealth, promatyvaya savings nation. Moreover, if the young can quickly adapt to new circumstances, people over 40 will be in shit.

The same fate awaits government workers - the state compensates its debts decline in real government spending. Ie blunt cut real wages - teachers, doctors, military, police. And of course the de facto snatches away by hyperinflation, all social benefits and large state pension.

That's what Americans should do to ourselves. Yesterday spree turns literally miserable existence at least 2 generations of Americans, over the next 2-3 decades. That is, all those who are now over 40, as well as a significant part of the rest. That means "eat their own future."

And in order to repay a debt will not be printed wrappers, and the whole nation to plow as a curse, malnourished and 60% earned spread creditors. And if not, then they in this world, nobody knows. As North Korea. You have no one sells, you have no one buys. Nobody gives a duty, not investing in you, and do not allow you anywhere to conduct its investment operations. Locked in the ghetto and live as you wish.

Of the countries immediately begin to leave the specialists, engineers and scientists in search of better conditions for life and work. They tried to quietly slip enterprising capitalists, who want more action, rather than living in the ghetto.
The country is losing its resource development and all the inevitable sinking into chaos. Approximately so.

 

[topspin]

that's hillarious hug seriously post another. That's the best whining ever, need some cheese.
Please take a look at what the average household had 10 years ago vs today
look at the average waisteline 10 years ago vs today. Yes we are far from starving. WE are so rich our poor are fat.

 

[The Rabbi]

(6) Get rid of the income, capital gains, payroll, sales and corporate tax and replace it with the Fair Tax or VAT Tax.

A lot of good suggestions, except for VAT. VAT is a hidden tax added at each step of the supply chain. Taxes should be transparent. A Fair Tax or an end user Sales Tax which is separate from the purchase price accomplishes this.

I like Paul Ryan's Roadmap:

A Roadmap for America's Future | The Budget Committee Republicans

I dont like the VAT or Fair tax because it empowers bureaucrats to make decisions as to what is taxed and what isn't. The WSJ had a great article on how this works in Britain.
I do favor a flat tax with elimination of deductions. Keep it simple, scooter.

 

[editec]

Like I said poor people are funny. Ahh 60 percent is about the number of people who own stocks. about 3 percent have over a million in stocks, and the average retiree has about $100,000 in stocks. Now, you want to talk about how detached I am?

A statistic that is very misleading but very comforting to those who would advance the myth that we're all investors.

In order to make sense of this stat, one needs to know what percentage of the stock wealth is owned and by what classes.

If 1/10th of 1% own 70% of the wealth, and the remaining 99.9% own the remaining 30%, that gives one a rather different impression of how important investments really are to people's overall economic circumstance.

Do we have these breakdowns of corporate and stock wealth by class and percentages even within those classes?

Those will be more telling than some simplistic and misleading stat that essantially tells us a TRUTH, but a truth that isn't very enlightening.

I don't have those numbers, do you?

 

[topspin]

I know that the percentage owing stocks has exploded since the advent of the 401K. To pretent most of America doesn't benefit from a flurishing stock market is comical.

 

[GHook93]

Cut offensive attack military spending about 50 percent.

Always the liberal response Iraq Iraq Iraq!!! They say cut defense stepping, but never cut entitlements! Makes perfect sense. I think a cut in military spending goes hand and hand with the conversation on cutting spending, but you douche bag liberals must cut spending on entitlement and shrink government. Of course you won't go there!

Thus making converting it to defense spending. Legalize tax and regulate pot. that alone would just about pay for national healthcare.

LOL, what would pay for healthcare is ending illegal immigration!!! Pot should be legal, but don't come up with fantasy that it will pay for healthcare! You liberal brothen would spend it somewhere else.

 

[GHook93]

(6) Get rid of the income, capital gains, payroll, sales and corporate tax and replace it with the Fair Tax or VAT Tax.

A lot of good suggestions, except for VAT. VAT is a hidden tax added at each step of the supply chain. Taxes should be transparent. A Fair Tax or an end user Sales Tax which is separate from the purchase price accomplishes this.

I like Paul Ryan's Roadmap:

A Roadmap for America's Future | The Budget Committee Republicans

If the VAT replaces income, sales, corporate, capital gains and the payroll tax then I am for it. If you look at my signature, I have been a Fair Tax fan for a while!