CDZ How We Can Reduce School Rampage Killings

[JimBowie1958]

.Good for you, being against multiple buildings, but that does not change reality. You cannot put a vocational/technical center in the same building with a high school or you have safety issues. They also serve multiple counties in my state, so you have kids from other schools arriving and departing. Maybe a good dose of reality might bring you back to Earth.

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

I really wish you would learn to think in the here and now. The 1950s was nearly 70 years ago.

I taught in a school built in 1927 and it had been remodeled about every 20 years or so. It was still a deathtrap.

I taught in a school in Florida that had no windows in the classrooms. When the AC failed, the school had to close because the classroom temps went to about 130 degrees.

I have you beat with 33 years in public schools. When were you a school administrator?

While I give your opinion more weight due to your experience, Anathema has a right to his too, no matter how unlikely it is he is right.

roflmao

 

[JimBowie1958]

Hey, Admiral Rockwell, I apologize if I got a little too 'confrontational' earlier.

I did not mean too, but some times my smart assedness just cannot be contained.

 

[Anathema]

I have you beat with 33 years in public schools. When were you a school administrator?

Never. That's probably why I don't have your blundered view of the system and what's necessary to fix it. Then again I don't believe public education is appropriate to begin with.

 

[usmbguest5318]

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

Of course...because a learning environment that minimizes the stimuli to which developing minds are exposed is a great boon to the learning process.

No matter how important it is to provide for students' safety, first and foremost, every school's primary objective is to develop children's minds and the way to do that is for teachers to avail themselves of and expose students to as many stimuli as possible. Admittedly gunfire aimed at them isn't a stimulus that a society wants to present to children, but neither is that of near utter isolation.

Far better, IMO, is a campus with lots of open space and windows.

 

[Jarlaxle]

.Good for you, being against multiple buildings, but that does not change reality. You cannot put a vocational/technical center in the same building with a high school or you have safety issues. They also serve multiple counties in my state, so you have kids from other schools arriving and departing. Maybe a good dose of reality might bring you back to Earth.

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

And I'm sure it wouldn't meet fire codes of 1980, let alone today.

 

[SeaGal]

The fact we are seriously turning schools into locked prisons should have us examining what the hell in our culture in the last 40 years has triggered some young men to go on a violent outburst.
Fronts we have failed...
Overly permissive culture...
Lack of respect to authority or elders...
A failing educational system...
Media that glorifies violence and imagery that wasn't present in the past...
Lazy feel good parenting...
Over medication of youth...
Failure to deal with obvious demented individuals...
I could do this all night, but too many of these threads.

What has changed in 40-50 years where in the past most 17 year olds were and acted as adults? And now we have kids living with patents far into adulthood. We have raised age limits to 21 when they used to be 18.

Guess its easier to blame a gun or the NRA than examine our culture.

I believe you have identified the cultural problems. We have adopted a culture of permissiveness, violence, lack of respect for the lives of others, lack of accountability and vengeful victimhood. The moral restraints have been weakened. If it feels good do it - I'm okay, you're okay. High level officials advocate ignoring the rule of law, and those we disagree with are labeled 'haters'.

We're told that illegal immigration is too expensive and too inhumane to control, the war on drugs is a failure, as is the war on poverty despite trillions spent. What makes anyone think that a war on arms will be successful?

I don't know how to make schools safer, or students eager to learn and appreciative of the opportunity. But I do remember what it was like in high school in the late 60's. It was common to see rifles in gun racks mounted in the cabs of trucks in the student parking lot. School shootings were uncommon but bomb threats were not. We occasionally had to evacuate due to anonymous tips warning of a bomb hidden in the school.

It's now being reported that warnings were given to the FBI and they dropped the ball - I don't know how accurate those reports are.

There has been a concerted effort to erase the boundaries of gender, roles and responsibility for behavior. However, I believe that we could destroy every gun on the planet and the violent would still wreak violence using different 'tools'. I fear that what we are seeing is the new normal and it's only going to get worse.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

Of course...because a learning environment that minimizes the stimuli to which developing minds are exposed is a great boon to the learning process.

No matter how important it is to provide for students' safety, first and foremost, every school's primary objective is to develop children's minds and the way to do that is for teachers to avail themselves of and expose students to as many stimuli as possible. Admittedly gunfire aimed at them isn't a stimulus that a society wants to present to children, but neither is that of near utter isolation.

Far better, IMO, is a campus with lots of open space and windows.

I totally agree, Xelor, but that environment minimizes security and thus leaves it to each person to provide their own, wouldnt you agree?

 

[Anathema]

[QUOTE="Xelor, post: 19311791, member: 60905]Of course...because a learning environment that minimizes the stimuli to which developing minds are exposed is a great boon to the learning process.

No matter how important it is to provide for students' safety, first and foremost, every school's primary objective is to develop children's minds and the way to do that is for teachers to avail themselves of and expose students to as many stimuli as possible. Admittedly gunfire aimed at them isn't a stimulus that a society wants to present to children, but neither is that of near utter isolation.

Far better, IMO, is a campus with lots of open space and windows.

[/QUOTE]​

Security should be everyone's primary concern at all times. It certainly is mine. That's why I would never send a child of mine to any school of the type you prefer. Dead students don't learn very well. Neither do ones distracted by unnecessary external stimuli.

 

[usmbguest5318]

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

Of course...because a learning environment that minimizes the stimuli to which developing minds are exposed is a great boon to the learning process.

No matter how important it is to provide for students' safety, first and foremost, every school's primary objective is to develop children's minds and the way to do that is for teachers to avail themselves of and expose students to as many stimuli as possible. Admittedly gunfire aimed at them isn't a stimulus that a society wants to present to children, but neither is that of near utter isolation.

Far better, IMO, is a campus with lots of open space and windows.

I totally agree, Xelor, but that environment minimizes security and thus leaves it to each person to provide their own, wouldnt you agree?

No. I went to school in such an environment, so did my kids (the youngest not yet 20) and, they like their classmates are prime targets for violence/kidnapping, yet, AFAIK, that has never happened nor come near happening at school. In fact, the abundance of places where small groups of students and others can be makes it less "profitable" a place for a single individual to assault.

While the schools my kids attended have their various security measures, a large share of campus security derives from collaboration with local law enforcement. Another aspect of ensuring a safe environment is that strangers, from the instant they appear on campus, stick out not like a sore thumb, but like a leper. That they do attracts immediate attention and wariness. Anyone who sees anything says something and their remarks are acted on immediately.

That said, aside perhaps from actual reform schools, any school will, to some extent, be a "soft target." Thus there will always be ways for committed shooters who have high power firearms (particularly rifles) to visit violent villany on a school and the people there. Sporting events and travel to other schools for them, or other school assemblies, for instance, make parents, students and teachers easy targets, if for no other reason, than attackers having the element of surprise. That will be so at any and every school and school event.

The execution of such violence requires several things: means, motive, opportunity and mindset. While minimizing opportunity is worth doing, minimizing it to the point that a "normal" school becomes tantamount to a prison compromises the very purpose of the school. That said, if there were any place worth spending billions on a wall(s), it'd, IMO, be around the perimeters of schools not, along the Southern border, because I care far more about the safety of kids and teachers than I do about braving the desert to get into the U.S. so they can cower in the corners of society while they work a low paying job that citizens won't generally apply to do.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No. I went to school in such an environment, so did my kids (the youngest not yet 20) and, they like their classmates are prime targets for violence/kidnapping, yet, AFAIK, that has never happened nor come near happening at school.

Xelor, I dont mean to be rude, but your thinking is wrapped in a long dead environment.

Now that our media makes each psycho rampage killer an immortalized celebrity, we have no safe campuses.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Security should be everyone's primary concern at all times. It certainly is mine. That's why I would never send a child of mine to any school of the type you prefer. Dead students don't learn very well. Neither do ones distracted by unnecessary external stimuli.

Okay. They're your kids, and I'm not about to remark upon your choices of where you choose to educate them. I have only to say:

• I chose differently than you, so did my parents (though times were different then), and insofar as the school's teachers, administrators and security personnel were tasked with looking after my kids 24/7, concerns about security/safety were paramount, yet not all consuming, in my mind when I chose the schools my kids attended.
• I'm very satisfied with the safety results my and my kids' alma maters, along with those of their rival schools at which were held numerous social and sporting events, and that of the law enforcement officers in the towns where the schools are located. As I wrote in post 49, AFAIK, there has never been anything even resembling the kinds of school violence about which we too often hear in the news.

You clearly feel differently than I about what environment is best, overall, for your kids. I think you are right to send your kids to the school you feel best meets yours and their needs for education, personal development, and safety. At the end of day, all parents have to be able to get through the day/night feeling confident that their kids are safe. Insofar as the kind of setting you described gives you that confidence, that is where your kids should go to school.

 

[Jarlaxle]

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

Of course...because a learning environment that minimizes the stimuli to which developing minds are exposed is a great boon to the learning process.

No matter how important it is to provide for students' safety, first and foremost, every school's primary objective is to develop children's minds and the way to do that is for teachers to avail themselves of and expose students to as many stimuli as possible. Admittedly gunfire aimed at them isn't a stimulus that a society wants to present to children, but neither is that of near utter isolation.

Far better, IMO, is a campus with lots of open space and windows.

I totally agree, Xelor, but that environment minimizes security and thus leaves it to each person to provide their own, wouldnt you agree?

You're right: a school designed like a maximum-security prison would be MUCH more secure.

 

[usmbguest5318]

No. I went to school in such an environment, so did my kids (the youngest not yet 20) and, they like their classmates are prime targets for violence/kidnapping, yet, AFAIK, that has never happened nor come near happening at school.

Xelor, I dont mean to be rude, but your thinking is wrapped in a long dead environment.

Now that our media makes each psycho rampage killer an immortalized celebrity, we have no safe campuses.

What does "now" mean to you in that context? Now is no different than in prior centuries because the human condition is no different now than it was then.

• John Wilkes Boothe
• Lizzy Borden
• Sweeney Todd
• Billy the Kid
• Ma Barker
• Harpe Brothers
• Jack the Ripper
• Quantrill Raiders
  • William Quantrill
  • Bloody Bill Anderson
  • Jesse James
  • Frank James
• Lucky Luciano
• Al Capone (and his siblings)
• Vito Genovese
• Hoodoo Brown and the Dodge City Gang
• The Bloody Espinosas
• Nathaniel "Zip" Wyatt
  
• Bonnie and Clyde

The fact that you didn't live in the 19th century or before doesn't mean "psycho rampage killers" of those bygone days wanted for the celebrity of infamy.

 

[oldsoul]

The fact we are seriously turning schools into locked prisons should have us examining what the hell in our culture in the last 40 years has triggered some young men to go on a violent outburst.
Fronts we have failed...
Overly permissive culture...
Lack of respect to authority or elders...
A failing educational system...
Media that glorifies violence and imagery that wasn't present in the past...
Lazy feel good parenting...
Over medication of youth...
Failure to deal with obvious demented individuals...
I could do this all night, but too many of these threads.

What has changed in 40-50 years where in the past most 17 year olds were and acted as adults? And now we have kids living with patents far into adulthood. We have raised age limits to 21 when they used to be 18.

Guess its easier to blame a gun or the NRA than examine our culture.

I believe you have identified the cultural problems. We have adopted a culture of permissiveness, violence, lack of respect for the lives of others, lack of accountability and vengeful victimhood. The moral restraints have been weakened. If it feels good do it - I'm okay, you're okay. High level officials advocate ignoring the rule of law, and those we disagree with are labeled 'haters'.

We're told that illegal immigration is too expensive and too inhumane to control, the war on drugs is a failure, as is the war on poverty despite trillions spent. What makes anyone think that a war on arms will be successful?

I don't know how to make schools safer, or students eager to learn and appreciative of the opportunity. But I do remember what it was like in high school in the late 60's. It was common to see rifles in gun racks mounted in the cabs of trucks in the student parking lot. School shootings were uncommon but bomb threats were not. We occasionally had to evacuate due to anonymous tips warning of a bomb hidden in the school.

It's now being reported that warnings were given to the FBI and they dropped the ball - I don't know how accurate those reports are.

There has been a concerted effort to erase the boundaries of gender, roles and responsibility for behavior. However, I believe that we could destroy every gun on the planet and the violent would still wreak violence using different 'tools'. I fear that what we are seeing is the new normal and it's only going to get worse.

Almost exactly the outcome of a conversation I had just last night. I went to school in the 90's and the gun racks were prevalent then too, especially in the fall. Many of my classmates, including myself I'm ashamed to say, thought calling in a bomb threat was funny, and a great way to get the day off (I don't personally know anyone who actually called in such a threat though). Fortunately, real bomb occurrences were, and are, incredibly rare. I guess that's part of what allowed us to think they were funny.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You're right: a school designed like a maximum-security prison would be MUCH more secure.

Are our courts designed like maximum security prisons, dude?

It amazes me at how much people will defend doing NOTHING about having better security for our kids.