How to destroy the USA IN SIX EASY STEPS..............

[Ravi]

Do they live in Miami? Do you think they reflect the entire population of Cubans in south Florida?

Not yet, most of them are still bi-lingual.

 

[Ravi]

not at all. Sure, it's the same process in three generations but Germany wasn't directly to our southern border pumping it's pauper class into our nation illegally every year. We got to decide how many Germans and Irish to allow into the club. They didn't come because someone wanted to strike back at their homeland leaders (cuba) or rationalize the price of carrots (mexico). Hell, Germany and Ireland have gone on to become nations that you might very well enjoy living in. Can you say the same thing about Mexico? And, don't you think that illegal mexicans see the discrepancy between how we accept Cubans and not Mexicans?

This is a nation of laws, yo. jumping the border disregards an America prerogative that just wasn't the case with Irish and Germans.

The germans and irish came for the same reasons the cubans and mexicans do, life in their home country sucks. The difference is the one's we let become citizens end up assimilating and becoming Americans.

 

[Shogun]

The germans and irish came for the same reasons the cubans and mexicans do, life in their home country sucks. The difference is the one's we let become citizens end up assimilating and becoming Americans.

no, the difference was that we were able to decide how many came over by filtering them through ellis island instead of turning a blind eye to whoever wants to swim across the rio grand. I'm all for LEGAL mexican immigration. However, if you can say fuck you to our laws then I can say fuck you to your monezumas revenge lifestyle back in your shithole motherland.


Hell, would there have even NEEDED to be a revolutionary war if the thirteen colonies could have just ran, conveniently, to French Canada every time Brittain passed a tax? LEACHING off of their resources and culture like a tick on a dogs ass, no less? If WE had to clena up OUR little piece of the earth then why dn't you see to it that Mexicans do the same for theirs.

Hell, it's pretty telling when mexican police chiefs run for the border seeking political asylum in the US, Ravi.

 

[José]

turning a blind eye to whoever wants to swim across the rio grand.

And this is the crux of the matter, Shogun.

The responsibility of protecting the US borders from unlawful entry lies squarely on the american government's back.

People can scapegoat Mexico all they want but this doesn't change the fact that this is a clear-cut case of dereliction of duty.

 

[Shogun]

I totally agree that it is the governments job to secure the border and they are doing a shitty job lately. However, enabling illegals won't fix the reason why there is an exodus of mexico's pauper class. Just like, might I add, sopping up Cuban refugees didn't overthrow Castro.

I'd have that border secure within 3 months.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I totally agree that it is the governments job to secure the border and they are doing a shitty job lately. However, enabling illegals won't fix the reason why there is an exodus of mexico's pauper class. Just like, might I add, sopping up Cuban refugees didn't overthrow Castro.

I'd have that border secure within 3 months.

Yes. If anyone ever visited the East and West German border back in the 1960's and 70's, that's what I'd turn the entire border from Brownsville to San Diego into. A 2000 mile long killing zone, without exception without reservation. You enter it, you die, period. That would stop that.

For those already here I would then hammer the companies that hired these people. Imprison their executive staffs for 10 years, minimum.

And then, and only then, start a resonable path to citizenship that didn;t take 10 years (more like one).

And then shoot anyone who bitches about $2.00 cucumbers. Because that's the price of doing it.

 

[Jeepers]

Yes. If anyone ever visited the East and West German border back in the 1960's and 70's, that's what I'd turn the entire border from Brownsville to San Diego into. A 2000 mile long killing zone, without exception without reservation. You enter it, you die, period. That would stop that.

For those already here I would then hammer the companies that hired these people. Imprison their executive staffs for 10 years, minimum.

And then, and only then, start a resonable path to citizenship that didn;t take 10 years (more like one).

And then shoot anyone who bitches about $2.00 cucumbers. Because that's the price of doing it.

Wooo. . now theres a country for ya.. how long ya been worshipping stalin...

Got news for you daddy o... you cant build a fence around this country... do the math... say it takes a million per mile to complete.. what figure do you come up with einstein.... not to mention I've been sailing in and out of this country for decades....I've never been stopped or boarded by the coast guard or customs.. you fence people are a bunch of idiots...

Now shogun... whats all this talk about a pauper class infiltrating this country...your starting to sound like a second rate limbaugh/lou dobbs collaboration letter... is mexico actually running them out or benefitting from the money that they send home... please do enlighten us on this illicit economy...

 

[Zoomie1980]

Wooo. . now theres a country for ya.. how long ya been worshipping stalin...

Got news for you daddy o... you cant build a fence around this country... do the math... say it takes a million per mile to complete.. what figure do you come up with einstein.... not to mention I've been sailing in and out of this country for decades....I've never been stopped or boarded by the coast guard or customs.. you fence people are a bunch of idiots...

Now shogun... whats all this talk about a pauper class infiltrating this country...your starting to sound like a second rate limbaugh/lou dobbs collaboration letter... is mexico actually running them out or benefitting from the money that they send home... please do enlighten us on this illicit economy...

"Tongue-in-cheek" is a lost concept to you, it appears...

 

[José]

Originally posted by Jeepers
Now shogun... whats all this talk about a pauper class infiltrating this country...your starting to sound like a second rate limbaugh/lou dobbs collaboration letter... is mexico actually running them out or benefitting from the money that they send home... please do enlighten us on this illicit economy...

Jeepers

You mentioned two different issues: Mexico urging its poor to leave the country and benefiting from the money they send.

Of course Mexico benefits from the influx of dollars into its economy, but this is also true of all countries that have a large expatriate community in rich countries.

As far as running them out you don’t have government agencies located in Mexico’s cities urging people to go live in the US.

The only thing that could be interpreted as official help to illegal immigration is the distribution of booklets on illegal immigration and road maps of the American Southwest

Mexico says those people will try and cross the border whether it likes it or not and considering how many people die trying to cross the Sonora and Chihuahuan desert this can also be viewed as an effort to avoid these deaths.

I’m not a professional historian specialized in the history of the American southwest therefore, I don’t know whether the American government provided the same kind of limited help to illegal Americans wanting to settle in Texas, California etc, etc and I’m not willing to talk out of my ass.

Anyway, all those booklets and maps pale compared with the big help illegal Americans got from the US government:

The Mexican-American war… a powerful nation strong-arming a weaker counterpart into renouncing half its territory.

But even if the US did it 200 years ago and Mexico does it now this issue would still be totally irrelevant.

It was Mexico’s responsibility to prevent thousands of illegal American immigrants from entering the country’s northern provinces, not America’s.

America didn’t have any obligation to double as Mexico’s border patrol in the 19th century and Mexico doesn’t have any obligation to do the same in the 21th century.

I treat both countries in a fair manner and do not demand from America anything I wouldn’t expect from any other country.

The super patriots of this Message Board should try this fair approach for a change.

 

[José]

One more thing before I go:

The irony of asking a country that lost more than half of its territory due to expansionism to act as a border patrol to oversee the same areas in which the land grab occurred is HUGE.

 

[Shogun]

Yes. If anyone ever visited the East and West German border back in the 1960's and 70's, that's what I'd turn the entire border from Brownsville to San Diego into. A 2000 mile long killing zone, without exception without reservation. You enter it, you die, period. That would stop that.

For those already here I would then hammer the companies that hired these people. Imprison their executive staffs for 10 years, minimum.

And then, and only then, start a resonable path to citizenship that didn;t take 10 years (more like one).

And then shoot anyone who bitches about $2.00 cucumbers. Because that's the price of doing it.

holy shit, dude.. what action flick did you just watch?? Invasion USA?
(awsome VHS box image below. Behold, this is how we know Chuck Norris used to steal Jesus's milk money.)

Im not quite thinking of Germany here. Though, I betcha the first 100 miles south of the border, from coast to coast, would make both a great 51st state, a location for illegals to go in order to earn their citizenship, closer to save on postage for all that cash they send back to the homeland AND makes the whole illegal thing the problem of those earning their citizenship.

the 51st State
by Sho'nuff D. Shogun
at quality booksellers everywhere.

 

[Shogun]

Wooo. . now theres a country for ya.. how long ya been worshipping stalin...

Got news for you daddy o... you cant build a fence around this country... do the math... say it takes a million per mile to complete.. what figure do you come up with einstein.... not to mention I've been sailing in and out of this country for decades....I've never been stopped or boarded by the coast guard or customs.. you fence people are a bunch of idiots...

Now shogun... whats all this talk about a pauper class infiltrating this country...your starting to sound like a second rate limbaugh/lou dobbs collaboration letter... is mexico actually running them out or benefitting from the money that they send home... please do enlighten us on this illicit economy...

How many mexican doctors do you see swimming accross the rio grand? Are THOSE the people you want picking your strawberries? The Graduatidad from Mexico City U? Yes, by ignoring the outright poverty of it's people and shithole nature of it's lands I would say that Mexico is running out their pauper class overflow. Would you care to see a map issued by the mexican gov showing KOA kamping tips for these destitute people along their northern trek into giving the big Chupa mi pinga to American laws?


Mexican migrants to get US maps
A Mexican government agency is to issue some 70,000 maps marking main roads and water tanks for people wanting to cross illegally into the US.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4645782.stm

 

[Shogun]

I’m not a professional historian specialized in the history of the American southwest therefore, I don’t know whether the American government provided the same kind of limited help to illegal Americans wanting to settle in Texas, California etc, etc and I’m not willing to talk out of my ass.

por que?

In 1821, the state became a province of Mexico after the Mexican War of Independence.[36] Texas became the northern section of Coahuila y Tejas in 1824. Spain's policy of allowing only full-blooded Spaniards to settle Texas also ended with Mexico's independence. On 3 January 1823, Stephen F. Austin began a colony of 297 Anglo-American families known as the "Old Three Hundred" along the Brazos River, after he was authorized to do so by Governor Antonio María Martínez.[37] By 1830, the 30,000 Anglo settlers in Texas outnumbered Tejanos six to one.[38]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#History


Old Three Hundred
In March 1822, Austin learned that the new Mexican government had not ratified his father's land grant with Spain. He was forced to travel to Mexico City, 1,200 miles (1,931 km) away, to get permission for his colony.[5]

The 1823 Imperial Colonization Law of Mexico allowed an empresario to receive a land grant within the Mexican province of Texas. The empresario and a commissioner appointed by the governor would be authorized the distribute land to settlers and issue them titles in the name of the Mexican government. Only one contract was ultimately approved under this legislation, the first contract granted to Stephen F. Austin.[6]

Between 1824 and 1828, Austin granted 297 titles under this contract. Each head of household received a minimum of 177 square kilometres (68 sq mi) or 4,428 square kilometres (1,710 sq mi) depending on whether they intended to farm or raise livestock. The grant could be increased for large families or those wishing to establish a new industry, but the lands would be forfeited if they were not cultivated within two years.[6]

The settlers who received their titles under Austin's first contract were known as the Old Three Hundred, and they made up the first organized, approved influx of Anglo-American immigrants to Texas. The new titles were located in an area where no Spanish or Mexican settlements had existed, covering the land between the Lavaca River and the San Jacinto River from the Gulf Coast to the San Antonio Road.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Three_Hundred


Jose, I like your input and respect the perspective that you come from... but..


DOES THE ABOVE SOUND LIKE EITHER "ILLEGAL AMERICANS" OR OUR MODERN ILLEGAL ALIEN ISSUE HERE IN THE USA?




I don't recall a single mexican marching to our congress and asking, AND BEING GIVEN, a green light to flood into the UNITED STATES. I dunno, perhaps you are familiar with something that I am not.


and, just something to think about, given the nature of the history of Texas and how it changed hands via foreign settlement, why on gods green earth wold you not think that the same thing would happen in the US, specifically the whole Atzlan la raza movement, if left unchecked?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Shogun
In 1821, the state became a province of Mexico after the Mexican War of Independence.[36] Texas became the northern section of Coahuila y Tejas in 1824. Spain's policy of allowing only full-blooded Spaniards to settle Texas also ended with Mexico's independence. On 3 January 1823, Stephen F. Austin began a colony of 297 Anglo-American families known as the "Old Three Hundred" along the Brazos River, after he was authorized to do so by Governor Antonio María Martínez.[37] By 1830, the 30,000 Anglo settlers in Texas outnumbered Tejanos six to one.[38]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#History


Old Three Hundred
In March 1822, Austin learned that the new Mexican government had not ratified his father's land grant with Spain. He was forced to travel to Mexico City, 1,200 miles (1,931 km) away, to get permission for his colony.[5]

The 1823 Imperial Colonization Law of Mexico allowed an empresario to receive a land grant within the Mexican province of Texas. The empresario and a commissioner appointed by the governor would be authorized the distribute land to settlers and issue them titles in the name of the Mexican government. Only one contract was ultimately approved under this legislation, the first contract granted to Stephen F. Austin.[6]

Between 1824 and 1828, Austin granted 297 titles under this contract. Each head of household received a minimum of 177 square kilometres (68 sq mi) or 4,428 square kilometres (1,710 sq mi) depending on whether they intended to farm or raise livestock. The grant could be increased for large families or those wishing to establish a new industry, but the lands would be forfeited if they were not cultivated within two years.[6]

The settlers who received their titles under Austin's first contract were known as the Old Three Hundred, and they made up the first organized, approved influx of Anglo-American immigrants to Texas. The new titles were located in an area where no Spanish or Mexican settlements had existed, covering the land between the Lavaca River and the San Jacinto River from the Gulf Coast to the San Antonio Road.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Three_Hundred

Of course there were legal american residents in Mexico but this is the sanitized version of the history of the american southwest, a nationalist fairy tale in which a handful of legal american residents rebel against a despotic, opressive mexican government.

The Law of April 6, 1830​

The Vice President of the Mexican United States, to the inhabitants of the Republic, know ye, that the General Congress has decreed, as follows:

Art. 11. In accordance with the right reserved by the General Congress in the seventh article of the Law of August 18, 1824, it is prohibited that emmigrants from nations bordering on this Republic shall settle in the states or territory adjacent to their own nation. Consequently, all contracts not already completed and not in harmony with this law are suspended.

Anastacio Bustamante

The thousands of american settlers who entered Mexico after April 6, 1830 were illegal immigrants by any definition of the term.

These are the invisible americans in Texas, a “historical annoyance” that was conveniently swept under the carpet by the “official” History.

Don’t hold your breath for Kathianne to tell her pupils about them during her history lessons.

 

[José]

Shogun, I agree with 99% of all you say. The only thing I disagree is your tendency to blame Mexico for the american immigration problems and your tendency to try and recruit Mexico to protect the US borders.

And I stand behind everything I said here in the past:

Mexico accepted the loss of the territories and has no longer any valid claim over the land.

You only have to compare the level of suffering the palestinian people are willing to endure for the part of their homeland lost to Israel with Mexico’s attitude towards its former northern provinces to realise Mexico as a whole grudgingly came to terms with those historical losses.

But this does not mean the issue is taken lightly by the mexican people. The loss of more than half of their country will probably always be a touchy, uncomfortable subject for most mexicans.

The landgrabber asking its victim to act as a border patrol overseeing the same territories that were violently taken away from it is extremely insulting to Mexico.

This is the true “indecent proposal”. The proverbial insult (“Help us protect the border&#8221 that is added to the injury (the landgrab itself).

If I were a mexican representative and got a request like this I would wrap the following reply in a more diplomatic language:

“Take your border problem in Texas, New Mexico, California etc, etc... and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine, gringo... If you’re not willing to fulfill the most basic of all duties of every state in human history, border control, you shouldn’t have stolen the damn territories from us in the first place.”

 

[José]

Originally posted by Shogun
and, just something to think about, given the nature of the history of Texas and how it changed hands via foreign settlement, why on gods green earth wold you not think that the same thing would happen in the US, specifically the whole Atzlan la raza movement, if left unchecked?

Exactly...

Foxfyre and other members of the board are a perfect example of how patriotism in excess is harmful to the homeland itself.

Instead of makind pathetic attempts at denying the undeniable historical reality of mass illegal american immigration to Mexico, they should use this particular episode in the history of the american southwest as a cautionary tale about what happens when a country fails to effectively control its own borders (for which I don’t blame the US).

Mexico’s inability to prevent the creation of a new demographic reality in which the hispanic population was turned into a minority in its own homeland by illegal anglos resulted in a massive loss of territory.

Ok... hispanic nationalist movements in the US are fringe groups now but so were the albanian nationalist movements who advocated Kosovo’s independence from Yugoslavia 60 years ago.

I don’t know whether hispanics will someday demand political independence from the US if illegal immigration is left unchecked (in conjunction with their higher birth rates) or if they will be fully assimilated into American society.

But as Mexico’s territorial losses clearly shows us, it doesn’t matter how many centuries a given territory belonged to a given country and how many historical sites and maps confirm this possesion.

At the end of the day, it’s the people living there who will decide the future of the land.

IMO, the US would be wise to stem the flow of illegal hispanic immigration, if anything, just to be on the safe side and avoid any possibility of having to taste the same bitter medicine Mexico had to swallow 200 years ago.

 

[Ravi]

If Mexicans can't run their own country how the heck are they going to take over ours?

 

[Shogun]

If Mexicans can't run their own country how the heck are they going to take over ours?

uh, by disregarding our laws for the sake of gramma and pappi and normalizing the shithole factor between the two? Say, how long does it take a hundred passenger boat, loaded with half a million undocumented people, to sink?

and, clearly SOME mexicans CAN run their country to a degree that benefits some while the rest get to live in squalor until they decide to jump the border.

 

[Shogun]

Of course there were legal american residents in Mexico but this is the sanitized version of the history of the american southwest, a nationalist fairy tale in which a handful of legal american residents rebel against a despotic, opressive mexican government.

The Law of April 6, 1830​

The Vice President of the Mexican United States, to the inhabitants of the Republic, know ye, that the General Congress has decreed, as follows:

Art. 11. In accordance with the right reserved by the General Congress in the seventh article of the Law of August 18, 1824, it is prohibited that emmigrants from nations bordering on this Republic shall settle in the states or territory adjacent to their own nation. Consequently, all contracts not already completed and not in harmony with this law are suspended.

Anastacio Bustamante

The thousands of american settlers who entered Mexico after April 6, 1830 were illegal immigrants by any definition of the term.

These are the invisible americans in Texas, a “historical annoyance” that was conveniently swept under the carpet by the “official” History.

Don’t hold your breath for Kathianne to tell her pupils about them during her history lessons.

Well first, 1830 is AFTER 1823. perhaps Mexico should have come to its senses a little quicker. Yet, the fact remains that I can't find a single source that suggests the original 300 were illegal in any way. Maybe you can provide a link otherwise. By the time of the legislation to deal with masses of Americans into Texas there had already been LEGAL American immigrants granted permission to settle by the Mexican gov. Again, what mexican group, besides the LEGAL aliens we allow in each year, reflects this? Certainly not the 8 million who decided to that our laws matter less than the peso exchange rate for every dollar sent back into the shithole motherland.


Consequently, all contracts not already completed and not in harmony with this law are suspended.


this indicates that there WERE ORIGINAL contracts that was given freely to American settlers. Again, show my the modern mexican equivalent. The original 300 were not a fairy tale. They were not a fantasy created by the same guys who gave us the infamous cherry tree and kite flown into a storm cloud. MEXICO, a rather new nations, needed settlers and gave Americans permission. We, the modern US, didn't do anything even remotely similar in order to facilitate mass migration of the mexican pauper class.


just sayin.

 

[Shogun]

Shogun, I agree with 99% of all you say. The only thing I disagree is your tendency to blame Mexico for the american immigration problems and your tendency to try and recruit Mexico to protect the US borders.

And I stand behind everything I said here in the past:

Mexico accepted the loss of the territories and has no longer any valid claim over the land.

You only have to compare the level of suffering the palestinian people are willing to endure for the part of their homeland lost to Israel with Mexico’s attitude towards its former northern provinces to realise Mexico as a whole grudgingly came to terms with those historical losses.

But this does not mean the issue is taken lightly by the mexican people. The loss of more than half of their country will probably always be a touchy, uncomfortable subject for most mexicans.

The landgrabber asking its victim to act as a border patrol overseeing the same territories that were violently taken away from it is extremely insulting to Mexico.

This is the true “indecent proposal”. The proverbial insult (“Help us protect the border”) that is added to the injury (the landgrab itself).

If I were a mexican representative and got a request like this I would wrap the following reply in a more diplomatic language:

“Take your border problem in Texas, New Mexico, California etc, etc... and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine, gringo... If you’re not willing to fulfill the most basic of all duties of every state in human history, border control, you shouldn’t have stolen the damn territories from us in the first place.”

Thanks for that 99%, yo. Still, I bet mexico would make an effort to seal the border if the US had its military just north of the gio grand and started marching into Mexico, claiming our 521st state. I blame mexico for having a government that would rather polarize it's wealth rather than create a viable middle class. Mexico, today, has a class structure like the period right before the French Revolution, only instead of rising up against silver spoon leaders mexicans just jump the fucking border. Instead of making life better in MEXICO they use the US like a tampon. Well, sir, we are not the latino tampon.

Since you bring up pal and isreal, let's consider which was given away by a global organization and which was the product of inviting gringos in. when did the pals do for jews what mexicans did for Austin?

Perhaps, if mexicans are so touchy, they should work on making what they have left BETTER rather than using the US like a disposable cup. Hell, does total land mass REALLY determine national standard of living? I can think of half a dozen smaller nations that were able to do more with less.

Again, Austin wasn't landgrabbing any more than a legal mexican american is. You let your bias sneak in here.

And, I wouldn't be worrying about "insults" and national egos this side of nafta. Mexico benefits more from the US than we do from Mexico. Hell, Mexico is lucky as hell that we don't treat it as the 3rd world country that it is. Wanna avoid insults? Control your own damn drug cartels and bring a semblance of law to your damn nation.


“Take your border problem in Texas, New Mexico, California etc, etc... and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine, gringo... If you’re not willing to fulfill the most basic of all duties of every state in human history, border control, you shouldn’t have stolen the damn territories from us in the first place.”


and I would reply

"Fine, fuck you mexican. Take your ass back accross the border and we'll take our American commerce (nafta) back to the US where we could use it and let you thrive on whatever a peso will buy you for dinner. If you are not willing to make life better for your lowest classes and prohibit your citizens from shitting in our front room, then immigration between these nations are closed. Oh, and you better scrape together whatever military force a peso will buy because we are about to take another 100 miles to patch up your previous errors. Don't like it, tough shit.. You shouldn't have thought you were a major world power without first creating a productive nation for your own population. Since a great portion of your GDP comes from America, enjoy starving in the desert while we sever the umbilical cord you take for granted."


remember the Alamo, buddy.