How They Lie About Lincoln

[paperview]

Hey Kevin, since a part of your username is Kennedy and the thread is about Lincoln, have you ever heard of the Kennedy-Lincoln "coincidences", pretty scary.

The main negative fact I always hear about Lincoln is the same thing as FDR, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and FDR interred the Japanese.

Chief Justice Taney, while he was circuit riding, heard the HC case and ruled it UNconsitutional, however, since it was not a SC decision, Lincoln ignored it.

Having toured the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA., I can see that Jefferson Davis was one of the hardest working men in any government then, sometimes 16-20 hour days.

The cause of the Civil war has always been a subject of controversy, whether it was directly over slavery or not?

One of the the things I often hear from the neo-confederates, is how brutal it was for Lincoln to suspend Habeas Corpus.

They rarely acknowledge Jeff Davis ALSO suspended Habeas Corpus.

Yes, habeas corpus was suspended in the Confederacy as well. Despite the fact that it's wrong no matter the circumstances, Jefferson Davis didn't suspend habeas corpus alone. The Confederate Congress backed him up on this as well, which the Confederate and United States Constitutions require. Lincoln did not consult the Congress when suspending habeas corpus, and that is why Haney considered his action unconstitutional.

The Constitution [Article 1, Section 9] is silent on who can make the decision to suspend the Writ. Lincoln used his power of Executive Order to do so, and that was in effect for only some 9 months, when it was restored.

It was suspended again, yes, but with Congressional approval.

It should be noted, and it is ironic - the Constitutional question of just who has the right to suspend Habeas Corpus - Congress or the president, has never been officially resolved.

On Davis, he still did suspend Habeus Corpus, imposed martial Law, forced conscription (at the same time exempting Slaveholders of 20 or more slaves (through the howls of "rich man's war")) imposed more taxes and regulation and confiscated private property.

He was well on his way to doing exactly what the confederates were rebelling against: Creating a stronger Federal Government.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

One of the the things I often hear from the neo-confederates, is how brutal it was for Lincoln to suspend Habeas Corpus.

They rarely acknowledge Jeff Davis ALSO suspended Habeas Corpus.

Yes, habeas corpus was suspended in the Confederacy as well. Despite the fact that it's wrong no matter the circumstances, Jefferson Davis didn't suspend habeas corpus alone. The Confederate Congress backed him up on this as well, which the Confederate and United States Constitutions require. Lincoln did not consult the Congress when suspending habeas corpus, and that is why Haney considered his action unconstitutional.

The Constitution [Article 1, Section 9] is silent on who can make the decision to suspend the Writ. Lincoln used his power of Executive Order to do so, and that was in effect for only some 9 months, when it was restored.

It was suspended again, yes, but with Congressional approval.

It should be noted, and it is ironic - the Constitutional question of just who has the right to suspend Habeas Corpus - Congress or the president, has never been officially resolved.

On Davis, he still did suspend Habeus Corpus, imposed martial Law, forced conscription (at the same time exempting Slaveholders of 20 or more slaves (through the howls of "rich man's war")) imposed more taxes and regulation and confiscated private property.

He was well on his way to doing exactly what the confederates were rebelling against: Creating a stronger Federal Government.

I agree. Habeas corpus can't be constitutionally suspended. However, it was the opinion of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court that it would be Congress' power to do so, not the President's. Davis at least went through the Confederate Congress.

 

[Polk]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

Fort Sumter was United States territory. President Lincoln had full legal right to order the shipment of supplies to American forces.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

Fort Sumter was United States territory. President Lincoln had full legal right to order the shipment of supplies to American forces.

No, it wasn't. It's off of South Carolina which was a part of the Confederate States of America.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

Fort Sumter was United States territory. President Lincoln had full legal right to order the shipment of supplies to American forces.

No, it wasn't. It's off of South Carolina which was a part of the Confederate States of America.

You may want to reread the Constitution. Land ceded to the Federal Government is NO LONGER STATE PROPERTY. It is from hence forth property of the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. The Federal Forts were all US Property no matter what happened with the individual States. Those Forts were NOT part of any of the States that claimed them, hadn't been since they were ceded to the Federal Government.

South Carolina had no legal claim on that fort. They had no right to demand it be turned over to them, they had no legal right to blockade it and they sure as hell had no right to fire on it. All those actions are actions of WAR. South Carolina declared WAR on the US Government, and in fact did so for the entire Confederacy.

Once again for the slow, stupid and brain dead. Lincoln did not even call for troops after the States left. He did everything in his power to solve the situation peacefully. The STANDING US Army at the start was a little over 16000 men. A fair number of Officers and troops resigned or deserted and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States raised, armed and drilled Militias and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States seized US Armories and Federal land and still Lincoln did nothing.

He only acted AFTER WAR was forced on him by the Confederacy and the unprovoked attack on that Fort.

You already cited where Lincoln tried his damnedest to avoid war and bloodshed.

 

[paperview]

Fort Sumter was United States territory. President Lincoln had full legal right to order the shipment of supplies to American forces.

No, it wasn't. It's off of South Carolina which was a part of the Confederate States of America.

You may want to reread the Constitution. Land ceded to the Federal Government is NO LONGER STATE PROPERTY. It is from hence forth property of the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. The Federal Forts were all US Property no matter what happened with the individual States. Those Forts were NOT part of any of the States that claimed them, hadn't been since they were ceded to the Federal Government.

South Carolina had no legal claim on that fort. They had no right to demand it be turned over to them, they had no legal right to blockade it and they sure as hell had no right to fire on it. All those actions are actions of WAR. South Carolina declared WAR on the US Government, and in fact did so for the entire Confederacy.

Once again for the slow, stupid and brain dead. Lincoln did not even call for troops after the States left. He did everything in his power to solve the situation peacefully. The STANDING US Army at the start was a little over 16000 men. A fair number of Officers and troops resigned or deserted and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States raised, armed and drilled Militias and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States seized US Armories and Federal land and still Lincoln did nothing.

He only acted AFTER WAR was forced on him by the Confederacy and the unprovoked attack on that Fort.

You already cited where Lincoln tried his damnedest to avoid war and bloodshed.

By gum, I think this is a first. I agree with RetiredGySgt.

Well said.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Fort Sumter was United States territory. President Lincoln had full legal right to order the shipment of supplies to American forces.

No, it wasn't. It's off of South Carolina which was a part of the Confederate States of America.

You may want to reread the Constitution. Land ceded to the Federal Government is NO LONGER STATE PROPERTY. It is from hence forth property of the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. The Federal Forts were all US Property no matter what happened with the individual States. Those Forts were NOT part of any of the States that claimed them, hadn't been since they were ceded to the Federal Government.

South Carolina had no legal claim on that fort. They had no right to demand it be turned over to them, they had no legal right to blockade it and they sure as hell had no right to fire on it. All those actions are actions of WAR. South Carolina declared WAR on the US Government, and in fact did so for the entire Confederacy.

Once again for the slow, stupid and brain dead. Lincoln did not even call for troops after the States left. He did everything in his power to solve the situation peacefully. The STANDING US Army at the start was a little over 16000 men. A fair number of Officers and troops resigned or deserted and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States raised, armed and drilled Militias and still Lincoln did nothing. The Southern States seized US Armories and Federal land and still Lincoln did nothing.

He only acted AFTER WAR was forced on him by the Confederacy and the unprovoked attack on that Fort.

You already cited where Lincoln tried his damnedest to avoid war and bloodshed.

The U.S. Constitution had no force of law over the Confederate States of America.

And once again for the rude and incoherent. If Lincoln really tried to solve the situation peacefully why did he refuse to even meet with the delegates of the Confederacy who had come to try and peacefully purchase all federal property in the south and pay their portion of the debt, and why did he belligerently try to resupply Fort Sumter knowing full well what would happen? You'll note that the Confederacy was obviously content to allow the troops to remain in Fort Sumter temporarily, but when Lincoln tried to keep a permanent military presence within their borders that was obviously not going to fly.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

 

[paperview]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

Kevin, I highly suggest you pick up and read some original Southern newspapers from the 1860's. Your local library may contain them on microfiche.

My personal archives contain 100's, of these originals.
I spend my afternoons sometimes just reading through them.

They are filled with talk of secession if the "Black Republicans" (what they referred to the party at the time) win the election. The fever pitch was high, and the South was intent on going to war if the Republicans won.
They were hankering for a fight - and they got it.
We all know how it ended.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

Kevin, I highly suggest you pick up and read some original Southern newspapers from the 1860's. Your local library may contain them on microfiche.

My personal archives contain 100's, of these originals.
I spend my afternoons sometimes just reading through them.

They are filled with talk of secession if the "Black Republicans" (what they referred to the party at the time) win the election. The fever pitch was high, and the South was intent on going to war if the Republicans won.
They were hankering for a fight - and they got it.
We all know how it ended.

You equate war with secession, and that's a fallacy. The south did secede after Lincoln won the Presidential election. That doesn't mean they wanted a war with the U.S. Jefferson Davis made it clear in his inaugural address that he wanted no war so long as their independence was secure from Union invasion, and the fact that he tried to settle the issue of federal property and national debt peacefully shows that he was sincere.

 

[paperview]

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

Kevin, I highly suggest you pick up and read some original Southern newspapers from the 1860's. Your local library may contain them on microfiche.

My personal archives contain 100's, of these originals.
I spend my afternoons sometimes just reading through them.

They are filled with talk of secession if the "Black Republicans" (what they referred to the party at the time) win the election. The fever pitch was high, and the South was intent on going to war if the Republicans won.
They were hankering for a fight - and they got it.
We all know how it ended.

You equate war with secession, and that's a fallacy. The south did secede after Lincoln won the Presidential election. That doesn't mean they wanted a war with the U.S. Jefferson Davis made it clear in his inaugural address that he wanted no war so long as their independence was secure from Union invasion, and the fact that he tried to settle the issue of federal property and national debt peacefully shows that he was sincere.

Kevin: Have you read the actual day to day Southern papers & pamphlets of the time?

Serious question that requires no more than a simple yes or no answer.

The papers and original literature at the time provides the true zeitgeist.

A full-on immersion of the literal words of the day, the printed as well as manuscript, is essential to round up one's view of the rhetorical political climate then.

I will admit, I am luckier than most, in that I have been submersed in the original works - letters, journals, diaries -- I have been fortunate enough to hold original letters and documents signed by luminaries as Jefferson Davis, himself, Lee, Grant, Sherman -- as well as Abraham Lincoln...-they touched the same paper I hold! -
all the way down to the simple Civil War soldier scrawling his hopes and laments, to the poignant original essays of the embattled University student at Yale who was facing whether to fight for the Union or the Rebs before war ever broke out.
I even get paid to handle such treasures, for almost two decades now, - on a daily basis.
(Yes, I do love my work). It gives one exceptional insight.

I would request earnestly, if you have not, to delve into the original works, which are not the google pitch-fork away, but reside in libraries and museums across the country. Touch the paper, smell it even. Inspect the force of the pen on the paper. Unwrinkle the paper. Read the words.

Indeed, these places are where you begin to understand and can quite literally bring you into the time and gain a sense of just how this bloody tinderbox blew, and how the South agitated and was full-blown ready to FIGHT! Come hell or high water.

Unfortunately for them, both came.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin, I highly suggest you pick up and read some original Southern newspapers from the 1860's. Your local library may contain them on microfiche.

My personal archives contain 100's, of these originals.
I spend my afternoons sometimes just reading through them.

They are filled with talk of secession if the "Black Republicans" (what they referred to the party at the time) win the election. The fever pitch was high, and the South was intent on going to war if the Republicans won.
They were hankering for a fight - and they got it.
We all know how it ended.

You equate war with secession, and that's a fallacy. The south did secede after Lincoln won the Presidential election. That doesn't mean they wanted a war with the U.S. Jefferson Davis made it clear in his inaugural address that he wanted no war so long as their independence was secure from Union invasion, and the fact that he tried to settle the issue of federal property and national debt peacefully shows that he was sincere.

Kevin: Have you read the actual day to day Southern papers & pamphlets of the time?

Serious question that requires no more than a simple yes or no answer.

The papers and original literature at the time provides the true zeitgeist.

A full-on immersion of the literal words of the day, the printed as well as manuscript, is essential to round up one's view of the rhetorical political climate then.

I will admit, I am luckier than most, in that I have been submersed in the original works - letters, journals, diaries -- I have been fortunate enough to hold original letters and documents signed by luminaries as Jefferson Davis, himself, Lee, Grant, Sherman -- as well as Abraham Lincoln...-they touched the same paper I hold! -
all the way down to the simple Civil War soldier scrawling his hopes and laments, to the poignant original essays of the embattled University student at Yale who was facing whether to fight for the Union or the Rebs before war ever broke out.
I even get paid to handle such treasures, for almost two decades now, - on a daily basis.
(Yes, I do love my work). It gives one exceptional insight.

I would request earnestly, if you have not, to delve into the original works, which are not the google pitch-fork away, but reside in libraries and museums across the country. Touch the paper, smell it even. Inspect the force of the pen on the paper. Unwrinkle the paper. Read the words.

Indeed, these places are where you begin to understand and can quite literally bring you into the time and gain a sense of just how this bloody tinderbox blew, and how the South agitated and was full-blown ready to FIGHT! Come hell or high water.

Unfortunately for them, both came.

Okay.

I'm sure the south was ready to fight for their independence if push came to shove, which it obviously did. However, that doesn't mean they wanted a war if it could be avoided. Lincoln simply made that impossible. I've cited Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address where he says he doesn't want a war with the United States, and I've cited Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address where he states the southern states won't be invaded so long as they continue to pay their tribute to the U.S. federal government. I think both of their actions show they were telling the truth.

Here's a link to Davis' Inaugural Address.

"if we may not hope to avoid war, we may at least expect that posterity will acquit us of having needlessly engaged in it. We are doubly justified by the absence of wrong on our part, and by wanton aggression on the part of others. There can be no cause to doubt that the courage and patriotism of the people of the Confederate States will be found equal to any measure of defence which may be required for their security. Devoted to agricultural pursuits, their chief interest is the export of a commodity required in every manufacturing country. Our policy is peace, and the freest trade our necessities will permit."

Jefferson Davis's Inaugural Address

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

Having read ahead, let me summarize. Kevin believes all the words of a politician named Jefferson Davis, completely. He cites them and uses them to make claims of peaceful intention. All the while refusing to believe a single word from another Politician that HAPPENED to be the ELECTED President of the Country.

So Davis said this and it is true. Lincoln said this and it is untrue. I already knew your bias, thanks for being so clear on it.

The land did NOT belong to South Carolina. They ceded it away, probably shortly before or after the Constitution was created. It had not been theirs to claim for over 60 YEARS.

Using the logic that at one time it was their land so they could seize it again leaves one wondering why North Carolina and Virginia could not just seize Tennessee and Kentucky, since both those states were created from land ceded to the Federal Government by those States. Around the same time as the land for the Forts was ceded.

Lincoln proved by his ACTIONS he wanted PEACE. We do not have to rely on just his words. We can look to his actions. Lincoln stood by and did NOTHING as the South seceded. He allowed the leaving States to form, train, arm and deploy militias and did nothing. He allowed them to seize Federal property, Federal Armories and weapons, Federal buildings and some Forts. He did nothing. He allowed them to travel freely through out the United States and did nothing. He allowed them to foment rebellion in other States and did nothing. He allowed them to form Navies and did nothing. He allowed them to lay siege to Federal Forts and did nothing. He allowed them to depose Governors that were loyal to the US illegally and did nothing.

He only finally acted when forced to by ARMED rebellion against Federal troops. Armed Rebellion that puts the lie to Jefferson Davis' speech after his election to an illegal Office.

Once again the first shot was fired not by the North, Armies were not first raised by the North, BUT rather by the supposed peaceful South that had used armed aggression to steal Federal property, murder and arrest Loyal citizens of the US. Depose a Legally elected Governor, create and force people to sign loyalty oaths which included a call to arms to wage WAR on the US.

The actions of Lincoln and Davis prove who wanted peace and who wanted WAR.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Once again dumb ass. the Federal Forts had not been State Property since the early 1800's at least. When the State left it did not magically suddenly own land it had willingly given up. That property is NOT State Property. What part of that do you not understand? Using your logic Virginia and North Carolina could have seized Kentucky and Tennessee since most of those States were formed out of the original land ceded to those two States.

Further using your logic the Federal Government would have owed something to the States leaving since they had , under the Constitution given it up to begin with. Land , buildings and money. It does not matter if the Southern States left or not, that did not suddenly give them the right to land that was owned, controlled and part of the United States.

Lincoln had no intention of recognizing the Southern States claim they had the right to leave, why in hell would he agree to sell them property or even meet with Representatives of rebelling States. Lincoln was clear. He believed as did the other States that once in the Union you could only leave via the approval of the rest of the States. That did not happen. South Carolina short circuited any possible discussions by attacking that fort. Lincoln was waiting for Congress to return to session to found out what they intended to do or not do. If he were actually hell bent on war he had ample provocation LONG before South Carolina attacked a Federal Fort. Yet he did EVERYTHING he could to prevent that.

Further as to that point, Lincoln had no authority what so ever to even discuss the potential sale of Federal property. That is a responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing to meet with nor open dialog on any such sale.

Nor could he discuss the potential payment of the National Debt as a reason to allow the States to leave. Again that is solely the power and responsibility of the Congress. He had no legal standing , no power, to discuss any such arrangement.

After the attack he DID have the power to call for the raising of Militias from those States still in the Union. That is his power via the position of Commander in Chief.

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

The actions of Lincoln and Davis prove who wanted peace and who wanted WAR.

On that much we can agree.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The majority opinion in the north was that the southern states had the right to peacefully secede, the war fever didn't begin until Lincoln forced the Confederacy to attack Fort Sumter. Which is what he wanted. And your argument that Lincoln didn't meet with southern delegates because it wasn't his constitutional right is also unconvincing considering Lincoln's thrashing of the Constitution during the war.

The actions of Lincoln and Davis prove who wanted peace and who wanted WAR.

On that much we can agree.

You are not allowed to change my post in such a manner. There is no indication at all that in fact it was much longer and explained why one could judge them by their actions.

You are a biased person. So biased you think people should take the words of one guy at face value, ignoring all the war like things he actually did while ignoring the words of another guy that by his actions proved he wanted no war.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The actions of Lincoln and Davis prove who wanted peace and who wanted WAR.

On that much we can agree.

You are not allowed to change my post in such a manner. There is no indication at all that in fact it was much longer and explained why one could judge them by their actions.

You are a biased person. So biased you think people should take the words of one guy at face value, ignoring all the war like things he actually did while ignoring the words of another guy that by his actions proved he wanted no war.

Please feel free to report my actions to the mods. I'm sure they'll take the action they deem necessary.

The same could be said about you.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

On that much we can agree.

You are not allowed to change my post in such a manner. There is no indication at all that in fact it was much longer and explained why one could judge them by their actions.

You are a biased person. So biased you think people should take the words of one guy at face value, ignoring all the war like things he actually did while ignoring the words of another guy that by his actions proved he wanted no war.

Please feel free to report my actions to the mods. I'm sure they'll take the action they deem necessary.

The same could be said about you.

As you wish.

 

[Xenophon]

140+ years and this stuff is still argued.

The Union did not consider it possible to leave the Union.

The Confederacy did not agree.

They settled the matter by force of arms.

Its as easy as that.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

140+ years and this stuff is still argued.

The Union did not consider it possible to leave the Union.

The Confederacy did not agree.

They settled the matter by force of arms.

Its as easy as that.

Might doesn't make right.