How Societies Are Destroyed

PoliticalChic

Diamond Member
Gold Supporting Member
Oct 6, 2008
124,897
60,268
2,300
Brooklyn, NY
Victor Davis Hanson encapsulates the mostly internal processes that destroy societies:

"1. Juxtapose pictures of Frankfurt and Liverpool in 1945, and then again in 2010 (or for that matter Hiroshima and Detroit). Something seems awry. Perhaps one can see, even in these superficial images, that something other than military defeat more often erodes societies.

2. …why are some civilizations more vulnerable to foreign occupation or more incapable of reacting to sudden catastrophe — such as the pyramidal Mycenaeans rather than the decentralized Greek city-states? In three wars, Republican Rome managed to end sea-faring Carthage — in part through the building ex nihilo of a bigger and better navy — and in a dynamic fashion not repeated 600 years later when 1 million-square-mile, 70 million-person imperial Rome — now top-heavy, pyramidal, highly taxed — could not keep out barbarians from across the Danube and Rhine.

3. At the end of the Second World War, the industrial centers of western and eastern Europe were flattened. Russia was wrecked. China and India were pre-capitalist. Germany and Japan themselves were in cinders. The factories of the United Kingdom (despite the 1940 blitz and the later V-1 and V-2 attacks) were largely untouched, and the United States pristine. Both countries had incurred massive debt. Yet Britain in the late 1940s and 1950s socialized, increased vastly the public sector, and became the impoverished nation of the 1960s and 1970s. In contrast, America began to return to its entrepreneurial freedoms, and geared up to supply a wrecked world with industrial and commercial goods, paying down its massive debt through an expanding economy. We thrived; yet socialist Britain did not become a West Germany, Japan, or Singapore.

4. [Most] important still is the nature of politics and the economy. As a general rule, the more freedom of the individual and flexibility of markets — with lower taxes, less bureaucracy, constitutional government, more transparency, and the rule of law — the more likely a society is to create wealth and rebound from either war or natural disasters.

5. We, in turn, can easily outdistance any country should we remain the most free, law-abiding, and economically open society as in our past. A race-gender-ethnic-blind meritocracy, equal application of the law, low taxes, small government, and a transparent political and legal system are at the heart of that renewal. America could within a decade become a creditor nation again, with a trade balance and budget surplus, drawing in the world’s talent and capital in a way not possible in the more inflexible or less meritocratic China, Japan, or Germany. Again that is our choice, not a superimposed destiny from someone else.

6. [Sadly, we evince] a new peasant notion of the limited good. Anything produced is seen to come at the expense of others. Absolute wealth is imaginary, relative wealth is not. We would rather be equal and unexceptional than collectively better off with a few more better off still.

a. The better off may or may not have “at a certain point … made enough money,” to quote the president, but I have no idea where that certain point is (or whether it includes vacations to Costa del Sol), only that once our technocracy starts determining it, there is a greater chance that my town will not have as hot water as the rich and Hondas that run as well as their luxury cars.

7. “Spread the wealth” and “redistributive change” only occur when the enterprising, gifted, lucky, or audacious among us feel that they have a good chance to gain something for themselves (and keep most of it), or to extend to others that something they earned — or more often both motives, self-interested and collective. Deny all that, shoot their bigger cow so to speak, or burn down their towering grain, and we will end up as peasants and serfs fighting over a shrinking pie."
(emphasis mine throughout)
VDH's Private Papers:: Decline Is in the Mind
 
. As a general rule, the more freedom of the individual and flexibility of markets — with lower taxes, less bureaucracy, constitutional government, more transparency, and the rule of law — the more likely a society is to create wealth and rebound from either war or natural disasters.

And to attract the barbarian hordes...
7. “Spread the wealth” and “redistributive change”

Like ending the aristocracy and serfdom?
 
Communism collapsed in 1987, free market capitalism collapsed years later in 2008, so what is next? Obviously neither of these ideological frameworks took notice of the most obvious human characteristics: greed and stupidity. So what's next folks?

Stages of Civilization

From bondage to spiritual faith
* From spiritual faith to great courage
* From great courage to liberty
* From liberty to abundance
* From abundance to selfishness <<<<< we are here.
* From selfishness to complacency
* From complacency to apathy
* From apathy to dependence
* From dependence back to bondage

Source: In the early 1700s, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote this about the fall of the Athenian republic over a thousand years ago.

This is excellent.

Jared Diamond on why societies collapse | Video on TED.com

Or for an interesting timeline of America's near collapse in the 30's.

Timeline of the Great Depression


"Globalization creates interlocking fragility, while reducing volatility and giving the appearance of stability....We have never lived before under the threat of a global collapse. Financial Institutions have been merging into a smaller number of very large banks. Almost all banks are interrelated. So the financial ecology is swelling into gigantic, incestuous, bureaucratic banks &#8211; when one fails, they all fall. The increased concentration among banks seems to have the effect of making financial crises less likely, but when they happen they are more global in scale and hit us very hard. We have moved from a diversified ecology of small banks, with varied lending policies, to a more homogeneous framework of firms that all resemble one another. True, we now have fewer failures, but when they occur...I shiver at the thought." Nassim Nicholas Taleb
 
Communism collapsed in 1987, free market capitalism collapsed years later in 2008, so what is next? Obviously neither of these ideological frameworks took notice of the most obvious human characteristics: greed and stupidity. So what's next folks?

Stages of Civilization

From bondage to spiritual faith
* From spiritual faith to great courage
* From great courage to liberty
* From liberty to abundance
* From abundance to selfishness <<<<< we are here.
* From selfishness to complacency
* From complacency to apathy
* From apathy to dependence
* From dependence back to bondage

Source: In the early 1700s, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote this about the fall of the Athenian republic over a thousand years ago.

This is excellent.

Jared Diamond on why societies collapse | Video on TED.com

Or for an interesting timeline of America's near collapse in the 30's.

Timeline of the Great Depression


"Globalization creates interlocking fragility, while reducing volatility and giving the appearance of stability....We have never lived before under the threat of a global collapse. Financial Institutions have been merging into a smaller number of very large banks. Almost all banks are interrelated. So the financial ecology is swelling into gigantic, incestuous, bureaucratic banks – when one fails, they all fall. The increased concentration among banks seems to have the effect of making financial crises less likely, but when they happen they are more global in scale and hit us very hard. We have moved from a diversified ecology of small banks, with varied lending policies, to a more homogeneous framework of firms that all resemble one another. True, we now have fewer failures, but when they occur...I shiver at the thought." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

I love that you think the economic hiccup we had in 2008 in any way compares to the complete economic collapse of the Soviet union in 1987. Cute! wholly inaccurate, but cute non the less.
 
Communism collapsed in 1987, free market capitalism collapsed years later in 2008, so what is next? Obviously neither of these ideological frameworks took notice of the most obvious human characteristics: greed and stupidity. So what's next folks?

We haven't had free market capitalism for around 80-100 years.
 
Let's face it, television has been a new way to brainwash kids into being stupid since 1950.

Maybe it didn't start getting really bad until about 1970 but all comparisons ot societies from before that technology appeared may not make much sense.

Now we get to see how the internet joins the fray. It has both advantages and disadvantages. Plenty of internet content providers don't have a vested economic interest in pushing crap information. But it allows access to more people producing junk for whatever reason that may have nothing to do with economic interests.

Follow Twitter. Learn when someone takes their dog for a walk or gets a beer out of the fridge. At least they aren't trying to make money letting us know about that. LOL

psik
 
Communism collapsed in 1987, free market capitalism collapsed years later in 2008, so what is next? Obviously neither of these ideological frameworks took notice of the most obvious human characteristics: greed and stupidity. So what's next folks?

Stages of Civilization

From bondage to spiritual faith
* From spiritual faith to great courage
* From great courage to liberty
* From liberty to abundance
* From abundance to selfishness <<<<< we are here.
* From selfishness to complacency
* From complacency to apathy
* From apathy to dependence
* From dependence back to bondage

Source: In the early 1700s, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote this about the fall of the Athenian republic over a thousand years ago.

This is excellent.

Jared Diamond on why societies collapse | Video on TED.com

Or for an interesting timeline of America's near collapse in the 30's.

Timeline of the Great Depression


"Globalization creates interlocking fragility, while reducing volatility and giving the appearance of stability....We have never lived before under the threat of a global collapse. Financial Institutions have been merging into a smaller number of very large banks. Almost all banks are interrelated. So the financial ecology is swelling into gigantic, incestuous, bureaucratic banks &#8211; when one fails, they all fall. The increased concentration among banks seems to have the effect of making financial crises less likely, but when they happen they are more global in scale and hit us very hard. We have moved from a diversified ecology of small banks, with varied lending policies, to a more homogeneous framework of firms that all resemble one another. True, we now have fewer failures, but when they occur...I shiver at the thought." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

I've used the Tytler quote before, and, actually, love it...

But you are, of course, dead wrong when you compare- in any way- communism and capitalism.

" Marxism rested on the assumption that the condition of the working classes would grow ever worse under capitalism, that there would be but two classes: one small and rich, the other vast and increasingly impoverished, and revolution would be the anodyne that would result in the &#8220;common good.&#8221; But by the early 20th century, it was clear that this assumption was completely wrong! Under capitalism, the standard of living of all was improving: prices falling, incomes rising, health and sanitation improving, lengthening of life spans, diets becoming more varied, the new jobs created in industry paid more than most could make in agriculture, housing improved, and middle class industrialists and business owners displaced nobility and gentry as heroes.

These economic advances continued throughout the period of the rise of socialist ideology. The poor didn&#8217;t get poorer because the rich were getting richer (a familiar socialist refrain even today) as the socialists had predicted. Instead, the underlying reality was that capitalism had created the first societies in history in which living standards were rising in all sectors of society."
From a speech by Rev. Robert A. Sirico, President, Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty.
Delivered at Hillsdale College, October 27, 2006
https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05

I always appreciate your use of supporting documentation. I wish more folks would incorporate same. It might be interesting, if you like, to begin a thread telling your objectins to globalization...

May I humbly suggest that you give up your subscription to the latest incarnation of Pravda, 'Sojourners," and switch over to reading the Philadelphia Trumpet...subscription is totally free.
 
Last edited:
Let's face it, television has been a new way to brainwash kids into being stupid since 1950.

Maybe it didn't start getting really bad until about 1970 but all comparisons ot societies from before that technology appeared may not make much sense.

Now we get to see how the internet joins the fray. It has both advantages and disadvantages. Plenty of internet content providers don't have a vested economic interest in pushing crap information. But it allows access to more people producing junk for whatever reason that may have nothing to do with economic interests.

Follow Twitter. Learn when someone takes their dog for a walk or gets a beer out of the fridge. At least they aren't trying to make money letting us know about that. LOL

psik

I think you give TV far too much credit.

While there is plenty of blame to go around- and not much of an argument that society has been dumbed down, one can document how unionism has changed the way we see teachers' roles, and, in fact, how teachers see themselves.

And the politicization of college and university staffs and curricular has edged real scholarship from the scene...

But unless you see the change in society beginning far earlier, one will have a difficult time seeing the big picture.

1. The real impetus for disintegration appears post-WWII. One interesting explanation involves the numbers of individual coming of age at the time, who must be civilized by their families, schools, and churches. A particularly large wave may swamp the institutions responsible for teaching traditions and standards.

a. “Rathenau called [this] ‘the vertical invasion of the barbarians.’” Jose Ortega y Gasset, “The Revolt of the Masses,” p. 53. The baby boomers were a generation so large that they formed their own culture. The generation from 1922-1947 numbered 43.6 million, while that of 1946-1964 had 79 million. Would it surprise anyone if this culture was opposed to that of their parents?

2. The human attempt for self-gratification is usually kept in check, within bounds, by religion, morality, law, and, by the necessity to work hard based on the fear of want. Much of the former was removed by the French Revolution, and in modern America, and another restriction was removed by the rising affluence of the last century; suppressed by WWI, and then by the Depression, but released by the 9-year expansion of the 1960’s. The effect of affluence was increased, multiplied, by the fact that parents, who had known the hardships of the Depression, and WWII, were determined to give their children every comfort that they could.

a. A leader of SDS wrote :” Without thinking about it, we all took the fat of the land for granted.” Todd Gitlin, “The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage,” p. 104

3.Not to be underestimated, the severe criticism of American propounded by liberal-to-left professors.

a. The wave of vilification of bourgeois culture received impetus from “The Authoritarian Personality,” by Adorno, et. al., “The Authoritarian Personality,” which identified antidemocratic indicia such as obedience and respect for authority. Conservatism, of course, was another name for fascism, and represented personal pathology. In another work, they blame the Enlightenment itself and reason for the rise of fascism, but fail to see the repudiation of religion as a major factor.

b. Daniel Bell described in “The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism” as the rejection of traditional bourgeois qualities by late-nineteenth-century European artists and intellectuals who sought “to substitute for religion or morality an aesthetic justification of life.” By the 1960s, that modernist tendency had evolved into a credo of self-fulfillment in which “nothing is forbidden, all is to be explored,” Bell wrote."
Whatever Happened to the Work Ethic? by Steven Malanga, City Journal Summer 2009
 
I would just like to throw in a few ideas, after I have read the first post:

The fact that Britain did not prosper after WWII, but Western Europe in general did, has different reasons than stated IMHO:

1. France:
Between 1950 and 1980 France experienced "les trentes glorieuse", the glorious thirty years.
In this time the economy vastly expanded, population grew and national income grew rapidly and steadiliy.
This was done with a highly socialized economy, but french style: The state played in huge parts the role of the entrepreneur. Today still huge parts of the economy are directly guided by the state. Also, the welfare system was highly expanded.

2. Germany (something I know better):

While the cities after the War were flattened (my hometown was destroyed by 90 %), refugees from the former eastern parts (10 million ) had to be integrated and a huge part of the male population was dead, seriously wounded or in captivity, the country was in 1980 one of the most prosperous countries worldwide.
(Had forgotten the status as worldwide pariah after WWII, but this is another subject).

1949 West-Germany became the Federal Republic of Germany, East Germany the German Democratic Republic. Both states were highly integrated in the respective military alliance and into the respective economic alliance.

Why had Germany been so successful ?
Just blend out foreign relations.

West Germany used something we call "Rhenish Capitalism", which differs much from the anglo saxon model.
Companies and Trade Unions saw themselves as partners, the bigger companies had the workers in their board and so on.
Germans in general have the idea of avoiding conflicts in their social structure, so this apllies as well here.
So, until 1989, West Germany was - more or less - prospering, because the idea how the state should work and the society should work was different from i.e. Thatchers Britain.

Conflicts were avoided, strikes as well, and as long as a yearly surplus had to be shared, this worked quite well.

Also, West-Germany has one of the most sophisticated welfare systems in the world.

This not only worked as a buffer, it helped in the current crisis much to prevent high mass-unemplyment. An institution called "Kurzarbeit" (Short Work, but it does not match in english).
Companies were able to send workers home, withoot firing them and let pay part of their wage by the unemployment insurance. So companies kept skilled workers, but at a much lower cost.

So, when the Chinese started to by Mercs again, Daimler still had it´s workers.

So, most Germans believe, that any form of free market needs to be checked by rules and regulations and that there should be a strong social security system. So far, it helped Germany through a lot of troubles and wealth is a little more evenly spread.

There is much more to be said, as ther fact that Germany has never neglected it´s industrial base, so we still have stuff to sell. The British have highly focused on their banking system, which now is in crisis.

Socialist nightmare Germany ? Depends from your point of view.

But think one time without prejudice

Has the income of the average american middle-class familiy risen in the last 30 years ?
Have a look at your infrastructure and think about which cars you drive, which High-Speed-Trains you have and where your electronics are coming from.

At the very moment, the US are in a huge crisis, while we are debating about a zero unemplyment rate in five years. (Which is IMHO rubbish)

I honestly believe, that any system which has no balance for the forces of the free market in any form, will be leading to bigger problems than a system like in France or Germany.
Which does not mean that we are in a workers paradise.

Funny thing is, that most Americans find the idea of things like unemplyment insurance, socialized healthcare etc. rather revolting or "unamerican".
Be it as it is, I strongly reject the idea, that the so-called free market Anglo-Saxon style is the most preferable system there is.

As a German I do prefer stability, order and a more stable and balanced system, which does the same in regard of wealth, but does not hinder me too much in my personal life.

What I see and feel is a common uneasiness in the western societies, as we are aware now, that the ongoing growth of wealth does not continue endlessly.
The known parameters of life are fading.
1960 it took one person to guarantee the life standard of a family, today mostly two well-educated parents do the same.

In german we have the word of the "mene koopman", the honest entrepreneur, whose business was under his control and who was personally responsible for his company.
This is mostly gone. If the Lehman brothers go bankrupt, there is no personal responsibility, moreover, the responible ones get golden handshakes.
Also, immigration, fear of terror etc. adds to a growing uneasiness.
We all must be aware, that obviously we are at a turning point and the future is unclear.

But we have survived worst.

regards
ze germanguy
 
Stages of Civilization

From bondage to spiritual faith
* From spiritual faith to great courage
* From great courage to liberty
* From liberty to abundance
* From abundance to selfishness <<<<< You are there
* From selfishness to complacency
**************************<<<Many are here.
* From complacency to apathy
* From apathy to dependence<<< others are several generations into this
* From dependence back to bondage
 
But to Japan's credit, in my lifetime they took"Made in Japan" from being synonymous with cheap crap to the finest, most technologically advanced products in the world.

Excellent OP. Spot on as usual
 
wow we had an aristocracy? who knew?

we still do

well, the greek root of the word speaks against the employment of such in this context, this is still a republic and not everyone sent to DC is wealthy or an elite certainly and not the best, don't we know ( in more context than one) . I understand the urge to use it, but this isn't the term we should apply.

I am trying to think of a word that fits the context.
In that our gov. mechanism on that level has become a bubble, and a corruptible influence with little balance. My own take is when someone is sent to DC be it as a Senator or Representative, they become diseased by the allowances we provide in that we allow them to write the rules for themselves.

The longer they are there, the harder it becomes even for those with the strongest character to remain true to themselves in that they had good intentions to start with of course.
 
Victor Davis Hanson encapsulates the mostly internal processes that destroy societies:

"1. Juxtapose pictures of Frankfurt and Liverpool in 1945, and then again in 2010 (or for that matter Hiroshima and Detroit). Something seems awry. Perhaps one can see, even in these superficial images, that something other than military defeat more often erodes societies.

2. &#8230;why are some civilizations more vulnerable to foreign occupation or more incapable of reacting to sudden catastrophe &#8212; such as the pyramidal Mycenaeans rather than the decentralized Greek city-states? In three wars, Republican Rome managed to end sea-faring Carthage &#8212; in part through the building ex nihilo of a bigger and better navy &#8212; and in a dynamic fashion not repeated 600 years later when 1 million-square-mile, 70 million-person imperial Rome &#8212; now top-heavy, pyramidal, highly taxed &#8212; could not keep out barbarians from across the Danube and Rhine.

3. At the end of the Second World War, the industrial centers of western and eastern Europe were flattened. Russia was wrecked. China and India were pre-capitalist. Germany and Japan themselves were in cinders. The factories of the United Kingdom (despite the 1940 blitz and the later V-1 and V-2 attacks) were largely untouched, and the United States pristine. Both countries had incurred massive debt. Yet Britain in the late 1940s and 1950s socialized, increased vastly the public sector, and became the impoverished nation of the 1960s and 1970s. In contrast, America began to return to its entrepreneurial freedoms, and geared up to supply a wrecked world with industrial and commercial goods, paying down its massive debt through an expanding economy. We thrived; yet socialist Britain did not become a West Germany, Japan, or Singapore.

4. [Most] important still is the nature of politics and the economy. As a general rule, the more freedom of the individual and flexibility of markets &#8212; with lower taxes, less bureaucracy, constitutional government, more transparency, and the rule of law &#8212; the more likely a society is to create wealth and rebound from either war or natural disasters.

5. We, in turn, can easily outdistance any country should we remain the most free, law-abiding, and economically open society as in our past. A race-gender-ethnic-blind meritocracy, equal application of the law, low taxes, small government, and a transparent political and legal system are at the heart of that renewal. America could within a decade become a creditor nation again, with a trade balance and budget surplus, drawing in the world&#8217;s talent and capital in a way not possible in the more inflexible or less meritocratic China, Japan, or Germany. Again that is our choice, not a superimposed destiny from someone else.

6. [Sadly, we evince] a new peasant notion of the limited good. Anything produced is seen to come at the expense of others. Absolute wealth is imaginary, relative wealth is not. We would rather be equal and unexceptional than collectively better off with a few more better off still.

a. The better off may or may not have &#8220;at a certain point &#8230; made enough money,&#8221; to quote the president, but I have no idea where that certain point is (or whether it includes vacations to Costa del Sol), only that once our technocracy starts determining it, there is a greater chance that my town will not have as hot water as the rich and Hondas that run as well as their luxury cars.

7. &#8220;Spread the wealth&#8221; and &#8220;redistributive change&#8221; only occur when the enterprising, gifted, lucky, or audacious among us feel that they have a good chance to gain something for themselves (and keep most of it), or to extend to others that something they earned &#8212; or more often both motives, self-interested and collective. Deny all that, shoot their bigger cow so to speak, or burn down their towering grain, and we will end up as peasants and serfs fighting over a shrinking pie."
(emphasis mine throughout)
VDH's Private Papers:: Decline Is in the Mind

top-heavy, pyramidal, highly taxed

I love the way you blow yourself out of the water and the very beginning of what you imagine to be a "brilliant discourse".

"Top-heavy and pyramidal" happens because the tax burden has been moved to the "Middle Class".

One of the main reasons that cause civilizations to collapse is the enormous disparity between the ultra rich and everyone else. Even education costs money. Take away the ability of the Middle and Lower class to earn an education and soon, all you have is a few very, very rich and masses of starving and uneducated poor. People that are easily led by the likes of, say, Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity or Sarah Palin.

It's so obvious, as obvious as:

204322-889-1109635219-1_big_slap_in_the_face.JPG
 
Communism collapsed in 1987, free market capitalism collapsed years later in 2008, so what is next? Obviously neither of these ideological frameworks took notice of the most obvious human characteristics: greed and stupidity. So what's next folks?

We haven't had free market capitalism for around 80-100 years.

has there ever really been free-market capitalism?
 
i think that the OP goes too far picking and choosing characteristics to highlight in an effort to load a point. it doesn't account for american, german and japanese socialism when paying a compliment, but turns on american socialism/capitalism to lay a criticism. it starts out by indicating that military defeat might not be the factor contributing to societal collapse, then examines several scenarios which indicate that in fact, it is.

hopefully in pasting this, CG realized that for all intents and purposes, japan and germany were destroyed by WWII. their restoration cant be seen as contiguous with pre-war time. that is to say because rome still exists, that the roman empire never fell.

the author claims the US could affect a trade balance in a decade :doubt:... this is more idealism put to task against real geopolitical and economic factors which drive national ideologies, rather than the other way around. fundamentally, a fallacious observation of what makes societies tick a certain way.
 

Forum List

Back
Top