How much teachers get in each country

Sounds like you want to live in Finland 200 years ago. Good luck with that.
 
The overriding and unspoken issue here is the pressing need for merit and aptitude-based policies, and a willingness to accept the results of those policies.

European countries - like Finland - have populations that are ethnically uniform, have a strong cultural work ethic and value education highly, and - to be blunt - have relatively high average IQ's. The US is dramatically different and no matter what we do we are not going to see them same sorts of results - looking broadly at the entire spectrum of students.

Our schools are all over the lot. And yet we want to think of our schools like factories where the raw materials are fed in, and the products are all uniform and acceptable when they come out.

Intelligent and talented kids should be taught differently from dim-witted, lazy kids. Putting them all together in the same classroom is sacrificing the potential of the most capable students to our desire to be "inclusive" and not to make the dummies feel badly about themselves.

Fortunately or not, any merit-based system is going to result in the people at the top of the spectrum having demographic characteristics that make our "leaders" very uncomfortable. There are going to be a lot of Asians, Jews, Indians, and white kids of northern European ancestry, and very few African Americans and Hispanics. And that phenomenon will NOT be the result of "discrimination," "exclusion," or "white privilege." It will simply be the cream rising to the top.

And by the by, academic "inequality" will increase, generation after generation, once these measures are adopted. As it should.
 
The overriding and unspoken issue here is the pressing need for merit and aptitude-based policies, and a willingness to accept the results of those policies.

European countries - like Finland - have populations that are ethnically uniform, have a strong cultural work ethic and value education highly, and - to be blunt - have relatively high average IQ's. The US is dramatically different and no matter what we do we are not going to see them same sorts of results - looking broadly at the entire spectrum of students.

Our schools are all over the lot. And yet we want to think of our schools like factories where the raw materials are fed in, and the products are all uniform and acceptable when they come out.

Intelligent and talented kids should be taught differently from dim-witted, lazy kids. Putting them all together in the same classroom is sacrificing the potential of the most capable students to our desire to be "inclusive" and not to make the dummies feel badly about themselves.

Fortunately or not, any merit-based system is going to result in the people at the top of the spectrum having demographic characteristics that make our "leaders" very uncomfortable. There are going to be a lot of Asians, Jews, Indians, and white kids of northern European ancestry, and very few African Americans and Hispanics. And that phenomenon will NOT be the result of "discrimination," "exclusion," or "white privilege." It will simply be the cream rising to the top.

And by the by, academic "inequality" will increase, generation after generation, once these measures are adopted. As it should.

Nice to see a thoughtful response. I agree with nearly everything.

The one thing I do question is the IQ. I don't think that matters nearly as much as people claim. People are smarter, when they are willing to put in the effort to exercise their minds. I'm reminded of Thomas Sowell, who said he was exceptional at math when he was first in high school. But after his family break down, and he was working a job to have food to eat, he was forced to stay out of school for a couple of years. When Sowell went back to school, he found he had lost the skills in math he used to have. That's why he went into economics instead.

When people don't use their minds, they lose their minds. Not like crazy, padded room, but if you don't use your abilities in critical logical thinking, or mathematical thinking, then you tend to lose those abilities, just like if you stop playing basketball, you tend to lose your ability to hit the hoop.

So when you say "well let's face it, they have higher IQs", I honestly believe that could be the results of the system they have.

You either make the grade, or you don't go to school. In our system, no child left behind, means no matter what your grade, you still go to school... and the students know this.

Again, I said this before, I knew a guy in high school, who said openly he did as little as possible, just enough to get a passing grade. Because he knew that as long as he passed, even if it was by one single point, it didn't matter.

That doesn't happen in places like Finland, or Estonia, or most of Europe, because if you get a crappy grade, you go to a crappy high school, and if you get a crappy grade there, you go to a crappy college. The incentives are, you want to do your absolute best, so you can get to a better school.

In our system, you are entitled, no matter how good or bad you do.

I would wager that if you put in place system similar to that of Europe, we would end up with people 'magically' having higher IQs. Because the incentives to work hard, would result in more people working their minds, and thus being able to.

Do you think every single rich person who has children, all magically are high IQ? I don't think so. Yet they all send their kids to private schools, and somehow they all end up being very smart. Why is that? I would suggest it's because those private schools, if you don't keep your grades up, you don't go there anymore. Creating an incentive for students to work hard, and thus magically have a higher IQ.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

Screen Shot 2016-06-17 at 3.42.56 AM.png


And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
 
Last edited:
Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

You seem to have intentionally skipped a couple of minor details. Which, of course, is not surprising.

First, it was the citizens in the area that VOTED TO TAX THEMSELVES to build the stadium.

Second, the stadium is shared by several different high schools.

Third, the stadium is designed to serve different sports.

The REAL issue with the stadium is that it opened in 2012. Since then it has begun CRACKING and is closed for the coming season. That was in 2014. I don't know that status today.
 
Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

You seem to have intentionally skipped a couple of minor details. Which, of course, is not surprising.

First, it was the citizens in the area that VOTED TO TAX THEMSELVES to build the stadium.

Second, the stadium is shared by several different high schools.

Third, the stadium is designed to serve different sports.

The REAL issue with the stadium is that it opened in 2012. Since then it has begun CRACKING and is closed for the coming season. That was in 2014. I don't know that status today.

The point of this thread is about why our schools are not doing as well as other countries which spend a fraction as much on education as we do.

So I'm confused..... how is that relevant?

If we all vote.... to be stupid.... does that make 'stupid' a good idea?

The reason I skipped over the fact that they voted for the stadium, is because it's not relevant.

Yes, they voted to tax themselves. Great. Does that mean that building a stadium is less dumb? Or automatically wise?

Why are our students falling behind the rest of the world, when we spend more money on education than any other country on this planet?

I think part of the answer is because we blow money, and time, and effort, and our kids......... on sports. This multi-milllion dollar sports stadium... is just the latest example of us having our priories on something dumb, instead of education.
 
Sports are a positive aspect of education. Some people apparently don't understand either.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.

Those parents have resources than others do. I'd love to see non-teachers sit in a classroom full of students from high levels of poverty, in gangs, deal drugs, etc. and see how "successful" they will become compared to Catholic school teachers.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.

Over the years there are a few things that I've noticed will determine how successful students are in school:

-Attendance
-Self-discipline
-Families that stress the value of an education

Students that lack any of these are most likely to fail their classes.
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.

Well yeah. Of course. That's kind of my point. People who have "skin in the game" tend to do better, if for no other reasons than "I'm paying for this, so I want my monies worth".

That's part of the 'incentives' I've been talking about.

IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.

Those parents have resources than others do. I'd love to see non-teachers sit in a classroom full of students from high levels of poverty, in gangs, deal drugs, etc. and see how "successful" they will become compared to Catholic school teachers.

Then you should read the link I provided above. Most of the students were from high levels of poverty, and drugs are a problem. But the school rule is, you are found with drugs, you are out. As a result people are less tempted by drugs (there's no peer pressure because there are no drug using peers), and those on drugs are removed.

If we cleaned up the schools, the schools would be cleaned up. That's deep, right?

That's my whole point. We need to end the entitlement belief system. You are not entitled to an education. You must earn an education. You earn it by staying clean, staying out of gangs, studying and keeping your grades up.

Which no one does in our schools, because they are "entitled".
 
IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient. But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.

Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder. There is no consequence for being last in the class. There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example.... Take Catholic schools in inner city New York. 75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge. Why the difference? This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.

View attachment 78443

And notice that........ Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study. Huh.... School.... is for schooling. Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you.... same kids. Same area. Same ethnic group. 95% graduation rate. Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore. Magically they are able to do the work. Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled? Of course not.

Incentives. I really honestly believe that is the key. No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem. You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up. I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key. *shrug*.
Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school. Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.

Over the years there are a few things that I've noticed will determine how successful students are in school:

-Attendance
-Self-discipline
-Families that stress the value of an education

Students that lack any of these are most likely to fail their classes.

Great. What would you suggest we change, to make those qualities more present in our currently failing school systems?
 
When I grew up (several generations ago), the parochial schools (i.e., Catholic schools) in Pittsburgh were superior in every way to the public schools (based on standardized test scores), although of course, some brilliant kids graduated from the mediocre Pittsburgh Public Schools. In fact, one of them, called "Taylor Alderdice" was as good as any private school until it was "integrated."

But the two most important reason why the parochial schools were better were (1) in-class discipline, and (2) the ability to expel disruptive students.

The worst thing that happens in many inner-city schools is the artificial suppression of disciplinary action so as not to appear "racist," and campaigns to encourage kids who want to be elsewhere to "stay in school."
 

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