How much should health care cost? Should it cost anything?

[RDD_1210]

Why wait to lose your job? Quit. Why achieve when you are entitled to the fruits of other's labor?

Another person who thinks we aren't already paying for everyones health care.

And you infer this how?

You're cool with people dying just because they lack health insurance, so I'm done with you.

When's the last time you stepped over the body of someone who died of "lack of health insurance". How fucking stupid is THAT statement?

The needs of one does not grant them the right to enslave another. Just because you're sick does not mean a doctor must treat you for nothing. Your right to healthcare includes only what you can personally provide without tools or training. After that, it's a matter of trade.

We don't have a healthcare crisis in this nation, we have a Deadbeat Crisis. People who want something for nothing.

Ok, you're right.

 

[syrenn]

Why wait to lose your job? Quit. Why achieve when you are entitled to the fruits of other's labor?

Another person who thinks we aren't already paying for everyones health care.

And you infer this how?

You're cool with people dying just because they lack health insurance, so I'm done with you.

When's the last time you stepped over the body of someone who died of "lack of health insurance". How fucking stupid is THAT statement?

The needs of one does not grant them the right to enslave another. Just because you're sick does not mean a doctor must treat you for nothing. Your right to healthcare includes only what you can personally provide without tools or training. After that, it's a matter of trade.

We don't have a healthcare crisis in this nation, we have a Deadbeat Crisis. People who want something for nothing.

Its not just that they want something for nothing of which they are already getting....they want more.

Deadbeat Crisis.... true that.

 

[Bern80]

I've shown repeatedly you have no basis for your opposition to health care reform that was passed. Everything you bring up, I show where you went wrong in your thinking. So now you're left with just calling it unconstitutional, which also isn't true. But you obviously don't care, you just want to hate this bill no matter what. Even though you've yet to show me anything in the way of any shape of logic or reason. Instead you cry about some mythical freedoms being lost.

Okay show where in the constitution where government is granted the authority to make people buy things.

You haven't proved shit. All you've shown is a lack of understanding of basic economic principles and a narrow minded disregard for liberty when you think it suits you.

My arguments are backed by basic economic principles. Yours are backed by unfounded fear of anything free market based. You can not increase demand on a product or service and expect access to it to improve. That's what this bill does. You can not expect to reduce the cost of premiums by giving the insurance company more customers and further restricting what and how they have to provide their product. Explain to me how this bill can possibly give people more options by further restricting how insurance companies can provide their product.

 

[syrenn]

I've shown repeatedly you have no basis for your opposition to health care reform that was passed. Everything you bring up, I show where you went wrong in your thinking. So now you're left with just calling it unconstitutional, which also isn't true. But you obviously don't care, you just want to hate this bill no matter what. Even though you've yet to show me anything in the way of any shape of logic or reason. Instead you cry about some mythical freedoms being lost.

Okay show where in the constitution where government is granted the authority to make people buy things.

You haven't proved shit. All you've shown is a lack of understanding of basic economic principles and a narrow minded disregard for liberty when you think it suits you.

My arguments are backed by basic economic principles. Yours are backed by unfounded fear of anything free market based. You can not increase demand on a product or service and expect access to it to improve. That's what this bill does. You can not expect to reduce the cost of premiums by giving the insurance company more customers and further restricting what and how they have to provide their product. Explain to me how this bill can possibly give people more options by further restricting how insurance companies can provide their product.

The MAJOR point his is making is that it will give more options to those who have no options now. It will provide for free something they do not currently have now. Health care insurance.

They will be getting something of great value... for nothing.

And in turn we will be paying more for their entitlements and getting less for what we ourselves ARE paying for.

So if i was some bum, this is a sweet deal.

 

[syrenn]

So back to the OP

How much should health care cost?

You should pay health care. Be that private or public.



Should it cost anything?

If there is on person getting obamacare for free..then EVERYONE should be provided obamacare for free. If that is not a system that is sustainable, free health care for ALL, then it must cost something and everyone must pay. And that something should be a equal payment for all. If everyone is going to get the same care, everyone should shoulder the same payment.

 

[Bones]

The United States spends more on health care than any other nation on earth, yet its citizens left and right are going bankrupt due to the disgustingly high costs of both medical care and insurance.

Something's seriously fucked up here. Seriously, seriously fucked up.

 

[Sarah G]

Something is very wrong when only the very rich or the very poor have no worries about healthcare. It's almost as if the middle class is being targeted by big insurance..

Wish those who have the power to change this unfairness would put forth the effort one of these days.

 

[Bones]

Something is very wrong when only the very rich or the very poor have no worries about healthcare. It's almost as if the middle class is being targeted by big insurance..

Wish those who have the power to change this unfairness would put forth the effort one of these days.

As they say.

Wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which fills up quickest.

 

[Bfgrn]

The person that went to the ER.

If they have ins, the ins pays the lion share.

If not they can set up a payment plan.

What if they are flat broke or living paycheck to paycheck and can't afford the 100k+ treatment they just racked up?

I know someone that pays a hopital $50 a month for hip replacement.

Stop whining, life aint fair, and no amount of you digging and digging for excuses will give the left a pass on taking more of my independence from me.

Independence? Like the Declaration of?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

When you can explain how liberty, happiness or anything else is possible without life and how life is possible without your health, I will listen to your argument that health care is a privilege.

 

[Bfgrn]

That's what I would like to know. Because the more liberal support and arguments you read for Obamacare or single payer or UHC, it seems that the left doesnt' really want health care to cost less, they want it to cost nothing to the consumer. That concept needs to be addresssed. Tackling the cost to the consumer and lowering it has one set of possible solutions. Making it cost nothing or something government funded through taxes requires another set of solutions.

So out with it libs. Is health care something you should pay directly for? Or is it something government should provide through taxes?

My question to you...do you believe in reincarnation?

Because the only way a market based health care system works is if you can refuse to do business with XYZ insurance in the next life.

 

[Big Fitz]

The United States spends more on health care than any other nation on earth, yet its citizens left and right are going bankrupt due to the disgustingly high costs of both medical care and insurance.

Something's seriously fucked up here. Seriously, seriously fucked up.

Absolutely correct. But if you look at other state healthcare system you see the same pattern. Low quality, difficult access (rationing), zero/low innovation, back breaking budgetary problems.

Britain is now toying with privatizing part if not all their healthcare system, but can't figure out how so far because it's so ingrained in their national psyche. Canada's starting to have problems where they are shutting down operating rooms towards the end of the budgetary year, so don't get sick or you will have to wait!

Socialized/government healthcare is a failed concept. It's major success is causing budgets to become bloated and unwieldy because no one feels the direct impact of unnecessary cost increases, bureaucratic waste and incompetence and over-use by the public. All this happens in a system where everyone thinks "It's not my money". It's amplified by a litigious society that sues for fun and profit over the smallest perceived, not real harm. Lastly, throw into this an attitude of entitlement based on fear driven by need and you have a death sentence for any government that does not have the tumerity to make the hard choices and put the costs back on their citizenry with a minimum of bureaucratic interference.

Think of this. If you had to pay, 100% for all your healthcare costs, you would be shopping around for the cheapest provider. No more 20 buck aspirins. No more $5000 a night hospital stays. No more 10,000 MRI scans. No. You would find the cheapest purveyor of these medical needs. You'd join memberships to clinics to cover your basic needs in a primitive form of health insurance where you'd get x amount of regular health maintenance care. For the really big needs like surgery or very 'modern' treatments, then you would have been paying into some form of catastrophic insurance. You don't make a claim on your fire insurance if you burnt a table top with a pot or candle for some reason, or make a claim on your auto insurance because you had an oil change. This should be the attitude for health insurance too. A broken arm. A heart bypass. Cancer treatment. Pregnancy and birth. That is what health insurance is for.

We as a nation need to get our fiscal priorities in order or we WILL suffer a time where no health care is available to anyone because the government, long since bankrupt will be unable to pay for it as well.

Lastly, why should healthcare cost anyone anything? Simple. Because it's not a right. It's a marketable trade and commodity. The same way you demand to be paid for your work, the doctors deserve to be paid as well. If you cannot heal yourself without training or medicine or equipment, you must trade for the services of another to heal you. To claim that another person must provide for you because of your need without receiving fair value in the trade in return, this is enslavement or theft. You are taking from them their skills, resources, time and work without giving something of value in return. If you think the costs are overpriced, then find another provider. Your need does not dictate any special status. We all need electricity, yet you must pay the bill. You need water, but I don't see many rain barrels around anymore. You need food, but the store is not handing it out for free. The doctor's office is the same. We have just insulated it from the understanding that it is a necessary trade-able commodity for so long we have forgotten there is no difference.

This is why we have a Deadbeat Crisis in this nation. Not a Health Care Crisis.

 

[Big Fitz]

That's what I would like to know. Because the more liberal support and arguments you read for Obamacare or single payer or UHC, it seems that the left doesnt' really want health care to cost less, they want it to cost nothing to the consumer. That concept needs to be addresssed. Tackling the cost to the consumer and lowering it has one set of possible solutions. Making it cost nothing or something government funded through taxes requires another set of solutions.

So out with it libs. Is health care something you should pay directly for? Or is it something government should provide through taxes?

My question to you...do you believe in reincarnation?

Because the only way a market based health care system works is if you can refuse to do business with XYZ insurance in the next life.

Tardtard, that's utter horseshit and intellectually bankrupt.

I see you forgot how it feels to get pwned and have come back.

It's clear you lack the courage to voice your true beliefs that you believe health care should be free and doctors should be slaves to the state.

Typical.

 

[Big Fitz]

What if they are flat broke or living paycheck to paycheck and can't afford the 100k+ treatment they just racked up?

I know someone that pays a hopital $50 a month for hip replacement.

Stop whining, life aint fair, and no amount of you digging and digging for excuses will give the left a pass on taking more of my independence from me.

Independence? Like the Declaration of?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

When you can explain how liberty, happiness or anything else is possible without life and how life is possible without your health, I will listen to your argument that health care is a privilege.

You are given the right to life. It's quality is not guaranteed in the constitution and is up to you to make the most of your opportunity. So wrong again. Time to get back to your private little utopia between your ears.

Thank you for playing, tardtard.

 

[Bfgrn]

That's what I would like to know. Because the more liberal support and arguments you read for Obamacare or single payer or UHC, it seems that the left doesnt' really want health care to cost less, they want it to cost nothing to the consumer. That concept needs to be addresssed. Tackling the cost to the consumer and lowering it has one set of possible solutions. Making it cost nothing or something government funded through taxes requires another set of solutions.

So out with it libs. Is health care something you should pay directly for? Or is it something government should provide through taxes?

My question to you...do you believe in reincarnation?

Because the only way a market based health care system works is if you can refuse to do business with XYZ insurance in the next life.

Tardtard, that's utter horseshit and intellectually bankrupt.

I see you forgot how it feels to get pwned and have come back.

It's clear you lack the courage to voice your true beliefs that you believe health care should be free and doctors should be slaves to the state.

Typical.

Pwned? Really Big FIZZZZZZZZ?

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly and it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems. Liberalism is a belief that everyone is basically good, all they need a fair opportunity to succeed.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but you don't get to decide the debate outcome.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

 

[Big Fitz]

My question to you...do you believe in reincarnation?

Because the only way a market based health care system works is if you can refuse to do business with XYZ insurance in the next life.

Tardtard, that's utter horseshit and intellectually bankrupt.

I see you forgot how it feels to get pwned and have come back.

It's clear you lack the courage to voice your true beliefs that you believe health care should be free and doctors should be slaves to the state.

Typical.

Pwned? Really Big FIZZZZZZZZ?

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly and it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems. Liberalism is a belief that everyone is basically good, all they need a fair opportunity to succeed.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but you don't get to decide the debate outcome.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

Ahhhh this is why you're a tard among tards.

Marvelous!

Equating the Bolshevik revolution that killed tens of thousands to the Reagan Revolution that killed... no one? Hmmmmm I smell poo scented logic.

You're so steeped in liberal philosophical poison you actually believe McDonalds is poisoning children???

Yes, tardtard... you earned that title. Shine on you crazyassed zircon.

 

[Bfgrn]

Tardtard, that's utter horseshit and intellectually bankrupt.

I see you forgot how it feels to get pwned and have come back.

It's clear you lack the courage to voice your true beliefs that you believe health care should be free and doctors should be slaves to the state.

Typical.

Pwned? Really Big FIZZZZZZZZ?

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly and it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems. Liberalism is a belief that everyone is basically good, all they need a fair opportunity to succeed.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but you don't get to decide the debate outcome.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

Ahhhh this is why you're a tard among tards.

Marvelous!

Equating the Bolshevik revolution that killed tens of thousands to the Reagan Revolution that killed... no one? Hmmmmm I smell poo scented logic.

You're so steeped in liberal philosophical poison you actually believe McDonalds is poisoning children???

Yes, tardtard... you earned that title. Shine on you crazyassed zircon.

"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Just how bad is McDonald's food?

Morgan Spurlock sought to find out in his 2004 documentary Super Size Me. In his film, I was interviewed and spoke about the role McDonald's food is playing in our epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

For 30 days, Spurlock ate only McDonald's food. All of us involved in the film, including Spurlock's doctors, were shocked at the amount that his health deteriorated in such a short time. Before the 30 days started, we each predicted what changes we expected to see in his weight, cholesterol levels, liver enzymes and other biomarkers, but every one of us substantially underestimated how severely his health would be jeopardized. It turned out that in the 30 days, the then 32-year-old man gained 25 pounds, his cholesterol levels rose dangerously as did fatty accumulations in his liver, and he experienced mood swings, depression, heart palpitations and sexual dysfunction.

The standard American diet -- in which 62 percent of calories come from processed foods, 25 percent from animal products and only 5 percent from fruits and vegetables -- is nothing less than a health travesty. Our fast-food culture has produced a population with widespread chronic illness and is a primary reason that health care costs are taking a devastating toll on just about everyone.

The annual health insurance premiums paid by the average American family now exceed the gross yearly income of a full-time minimum wage worker. Every 30 seconds, someone in the U.S. files for bankruptcy due to the costs of treating a health problem. Starbucks spends more on the health insurance of its workers than it does on coffee.

Medical care costs in the U.S. have not always been this excessive. This year, we will spend more than $2.5 trillion on medical care. But in 1950, five years before Ray Kroc opened the first franchised McDonald's restaurant, Americans only spent $8.4 billion ($70 billion in today's dollars). Even after adjusting for inflation, we now spend as much on health care every 10 days as we did in the entire year of 1950.

Has this enormous increase in spending made us healthier? Earlier this year, when the World Health Organization assessed the overall health outcomes of different nations, it placed 36 other nations ahead of the United States.

Today, we have an epidemic of largely preventable diseases. To these illnesses, Americans are losing not only their health but also their life savings. Meanwhile, the evidence keeps growing that the path to improved health lies in eating more vegetables, fruits, whole grains and legumes, and eating far less processed foods, sugars and animal products.

 

[Big Fitz]

I've read Fast Food Nation. Piece of advocacy muckraking I'd barely dignify as journalism.

Take your dietary pomposity somewhere else. I've never known of a single case where the cause of death was "Fast Food". Nor has there ever been a proven case of cancer or disease caused conclusively by fast food.

Lots of allegations and biased 'research', but no real proof.

But, this is why you're tardtard. Intellectual bankruptcy at it's most frantic.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Exactly. This is what they are not getting. We are already paying for all these people who don't have insurance but are still being treated at ER's and hospitals who can not turn them away. The problem is we are paying for ER costs which are DRASTICALLY higher and is an extremely inefficient way of paying for their care. It would be much more efficient to subsidize these peoples insurance so they can get preventative care and treat their ailments before they get out of control and end up costing us a lot more money when they visit the ER.
In the end we are paying for people who aren't insured no matter what, it's just a question of how do we want to do it. Efficiently or inefficiently?

Have you seen what shows up in ER's? A good deal of what shows up is NOT an emergency. And in my opinion they should be turned away.

It would be more efficient for the government to open low cost hospitals and clinics. Require doctors that are still paying off their loans to man them for free.

Yeah, you're right, alot of ER patients shouldn't be there, but they have nowhere else to go because they have no insurance. That's why if they had insurance from the beginning they can seek care with their personal doctor and avoid the ER all-together. That improves the quality of their life, while reducing the costs for the rest of us.

Wait . . . you mean if someone without insurance were to go to the doctor (instead of the ER) because they had the flu, they couldn't just pay the doctor directly the cost of the visit?

 

[Zoom-boing]

I've never understood why health insurance is set up to pay for the small stuff, like doctor's visits or lower cost tests and such. If my car insurance covered oil changes, tire rotations, and yearly inspections the cost of my premium would go way up. Why don't they change how insurance is structured so that the smaller stuff isn't covered and has to be paid for out of pocket. Wouldn't that reduce costs?

Have the rates of plastic surgery gone out of control? That's rarely covered by insurance and people pay out of pocket.

 

[syrenn]

Have you seen what shows up in ER's? A good deal of what shows up is NOT an emergency. And in my opinion they should be turned away.

It would be more efficient for the government to open low cost hospitals and clinics. Require doctors that are still paying off their loans to man them for free.

Yeah, you're right, alot of ER patients shouldn't be there, but they have nowhere else to go because they have no insurance. That's why if they had insurance from the beginning they can seek care with their personal doctor and avoid the ER all-together. That improves the quality of their life, while reducing the costs for the rest of us.

Wait . . . you mean if someone without insurance were to go to the doctor (instead of the ER) because they had the flu, they couldn't just pay the doctor directly the cost of the visit?

And there is the bottom line. The do not want to pay.