How much is a life worth?

[dmp]

I understand your point, so I guess they shoulda said, "he boned another woman". I am not sure how you equate an extra-marrital affair with the others. There is a difference. Love, affection, cherish can all be regained. But once you dip your wick someplace else, you CANNOT take that back. Period. So I would say that adutery is much worse than the other examples you cite.

My God doesn't grade sin. I want to be more like my God. (shrug). Breaking a vow is a sin - because it makes one a liar.

 

[Bonnie]

No one can be certian they were in fact 'still married' when she entered this condition. Perhaps she was on her way out the door - after the two had agreed to divorce.

I'm not saying Adultry isn't Cheating...I'm saying "there's more to 'cheating' than "adultry".

When you break ANY vows, you are cheating. My wife vowed to Love, Honour, Cherrish, to forsake all others - to stick with me thru richer and poorer. If she stopped loving me....she'd be 'cheating' me out of her love. If she stopped showing affection, she'd be 'cheating' me out of being Cherished. If she had sex with another person, she'd be "cheating" me out of our bond/intimacy.

D I agree with you here, but I am wondering just what else besides actual sex with someone else constitutes cheating in your eyes?

The phrase "sacred" has been used a lot throughout this thread and I have to stop and wonder just how sacred some of the other bahavior going on today in mariage is not breaking that sacred vow?

 

[dmp]

D I agree with you here, but I am wondering just what else besides actual sex with someone else constitutes cheating in your eyes?

The phrase "sacred" has been used a lot throughout this thread and I have to stop and wonder just how sacred some of the other bahavior going on today in mariage is not breaking that sacred vow?

The breaking of any vows given, I'd guess. While not every breaking of a vow makes sense to be labelled as 'cheating' there are some vows which can harm a marriage MORE than an instance of either the man or the woman having sex with another.

 

[freeandfun1]

My God doesn't grade sin. I want to be more like my God. (shrug). Breaking a vow is a sin - because it makes one a liar.

Well, according to the Bible, the G-d of the Bible does. Commandment number 7 says' "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery". Furthermore, Christ says in Matthew, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery," (Matt. 19:9). The word in Greek for immorality is porneia from which we get the word pornography. Sexual immorality, i.e., adultery, is a grounds for divorce according to Jesus.

The other justifiable reason for divorce is mentioned Corinthians and that is abandonment: "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace," (1 Cor. 7:15).

Nowhere does it say in the Bible that if a spouse stops loving you, cherishing you or showing you affection that you can divorce them. Therefore, if you remarried, you would be committing adultery.

As I said before, all the things you equate with adultery can be overcome. But once a person commits adultery, they have committed it and the only way they will be forgiven is through Christ.

 

[dmp]

Well, according to the Bible, the G-d of the Bible does. Commandment number 7 says' "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery". Furthermore, Christ says in Matthew, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery," (Matt. 19:9). The word in Greek for immorality is porneia from which we get the word pornography. Sexual immorality, i.e., adultery, is a grounds for divorce according to Jesus.

The other justifiable reason for divorce is mentioned Corinthians and that is abandonment: "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace," (1 Cor. 7:15).

Nowhere does it say in the Bible that if a spouse stops loving you, cherishing you or showing you affection that you can divorce them. Therefore, if you remarried, you would be committing adultery.

As I said before, all the things you equate with adultery can be overcome. But once a person commits adultery, they have committed it and the only way they will be forgiven is through Christ.

what do those have to do with grading sin?


Those things I equate with Adultry are all 'Lying'. ADULTRY is 'lying'. It's saying "I've made a promise 'not' to do this, but I'm breaking it." Therein lies the problem. You equate sin with an 'action'...God equates sin with a heart-condition.

 

[freeandfun1]

what do those have to do with grading sin?


Those things I equate with Adultry are all 'Lying'. ADULTRY is 'lying'. It's saying "I've made a promise 'not' to do this, but I'm breaking it." Therein lies the problem. You equate sin with an 'action'...God equates sin with a heart-condition.

Uh, I never said they had anything to do with grading sin. I just mentioned that G-d does have different views on sin. Which he does.

Look Darin, you always want to argue with me. So I tell ya what, you win. I am not going to let this degenerate - which it will - so take over. You're right, falling out of love is the same as adultery. Okay, I got it.

later.

 

[Merlin1047]

It goes on to say the other witnesses were her brother and sister in-law

Im just not convinced. And apparently the courts haven't been along the way either or this matter would have been settled long ago.

After reading through the site you provided and some others, I have to say that I believe there is a sufficiency of anecdotal evidence supporting Michael Schaivo's position.

Since Terry Schaivo discussed this matter with others in her family, the burden of proof has been met IMO. I don't think that it is fair or correct to dismiss the statements of her brother and sister in law simply because they are not blood kin.

So I have to conclude that if the decision were mine to make, I would remove the tube and allow Terry to die as she apparently wished to.

 

[Bonnie]

The breaking of any vows given, I'd guess. While not every breaking of a vow makes sense to be labelled as 'cheating' there are some vows which can harm a marriage MORE than an instance of either the man or the woman having sex with another.

Would you consider an online sexual affair cheating? Or getting a lap dance from a stripper? Is that breaking the keep each other only unto eachother vow?

Im just asking in general?

 

[Bonnie]

After reading through the site you provided and some others, I have to say that I believe there is a sufficiency of anecdotal evidence supporting Michael Schaivo's position.

Since Terry Schaivo discussed this matter with others in her family, the burden of proof has been met IMO. I don't think that it is fair or correct to dismiss the statements of her brother and sister in law simply because they are not blood kin.

So I have to conclude that if the decision were mine to make, I would remove the tube and allow Terry to die as she apparently wished to.

She also made statements to her mother saying different.

 

[dmp]

Uh, I never said they had anything to do with grading sin. I just mentioned that G-d does have different views on sin. Which he does.

Look Darin, you always want to argue with me. So I tell ya what, you win. I am not going to let this degenerate - which it will - so take over. You're right, falling out of love is the same as adultery. Okay, I got it.

later.

You are making several errors here:

1) God views sin differently? Perhaps - the punishments for ALL sin equate, however...even if the earthly-consequences are different.
2) I NEVER want to argue with you - I'm unsure where you got that from. What I am doing is EXPLAINING what i believe to be truth. If that bothers or frustrates you, I apologize. When I believe I'm right it takes much to convince me otherwise.
3) Falling out of love? Nobody vows to be 'in-love' with somebody...they vow to 'Love' somebody. Being in or out of love is cyclic in nature - it's driven by our emotions and feelings. "Loving" somebody - which is what my wife and I vowed to eachother, is saying "Regardless of how I feel, I will Love you." Love is a verb.

 

[dmp]

Would you consider an online sexual affair cheating? Or getting a lap dance from a stripper? Is that breaking the keep each other only unto eachother vow?

Im just asking in general?

Hmm....Online sexual affair? Probably. It's from within the heart sin is born. Even expressed only via the internet, sharing one's affections with somebody other than a spouse could be considered 'cheating' that spouse out of what was promised to them.

Lap Dance? Contextually no. When I turned 30 my wife decided it was time for one-last-hoorah for me. She took ME to a strip club, and SHE got a lap-dance. Was she cheating? Naw...it was fun...and funny.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

So we need to separate the emotionalism from the legalisms. We need to separate spousal obligation from spousal "rights". Each of us has a right to say what kind of medical care and life support we want for ourselves. But none of us has the right to say what kind of medical care anyone else should receive. If a spouse is critically injured and requires surgery, or requires an operation to remove a malignant tumor, the other spouse has no "right" to decide whether that operation will be performed or not. But yet we want to assert that a spouse has the right to make a decision regarding life or death. I believe that only one person can make such a decision.

I beg to differ. If your wife is in a car accident and requires surgery, except for life saving trauma care, after her accident but is in a coma, those doctors are coming to you. If you don't agree, then they can't operate.

So yes, I believe that a surviving spouse has an ethical and moral obligation to assure that a promise made to the other is carried out. But society has an obligation to assure that those wishes have in fact been expressed by the person who is unable to act on his or her own behalf. A living will is the bridge between the two competing obligations.

No, that is what the marriage contract is all about. in my opinion anyway.

 

[Merlin1047]

I beg to differ. If your wife is in a car accident and requires surgery, except for life saving trauma care, after her accident but is in a coma, those doctors are coming to you. If you don't agree, then they can't operate.


No, that is what the marriage contract is all about. in my opinion anyway.

You know - I don't really have any substantial disagreement with your position. All I'm saying is that society has a duty to protect its members. By having a living will you enable your spouse to carry out your final wishes free of legal encumbrances because society's obligations toward you have been fulfilled.

I think that we have the same determination to assure that our respective spouse's wishes are carried out. What I don't understand is your apparent reluctance to take advantage of a very simple and easy means to assure that you will in fact be able to accomplish that which you have promised. Perhaps you view it as a matter of principle, but if that is the case, you have to ask yourself which is the more important - being able to carry out your wife's wishes or holding to the principle that society has no right to "interfere" in your marriage.

My view is that this is not unwarranted governmental intrusion into private affairs - and I'm pretty sensitive on that issue. I believe that society has a genuine obligation to protect those who cannot speak for themselves. And in a matter as serious as ending a human life, I do not think that it is unreasonable to expect some sort of tangible proof.

 

[freeandfun1]

Okay, if you stop loving your spouse, that is the same as adultery. There is that more acceptable?

If you marry somebody because you love them, then when things get rough, you turn to Christ to re-establish the love lost. You ask Christ to put things back together for you. But if you have an adulteress affair, all you can do is confess your sins to G-d and to your wife and ask for forgiveness and it will be granted. However, adultery and abandonment (and the verse on abandonment is more directly applied when a believer is married to an unbeliever) are the only two grounds for divorce. Period.

As for as the "grading" of sin, G-d will judge you on judgement day and yes, some sins will be "graded" worse than others. That does not mean G-d will not forgive you if you have seeked forgiveness, but it does mean that your place with him might be different that it could have been.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

There are many mansions after the judgment, because we are all different and we have all made different decisions in regards to our life with Christ. Since we have had different amounts of righteousness and wickedness in our lives, it is only appropriate that there should be different mansions.

Based on this, G-d must be "grading" sin, or we would all be considered equal in heaven. Which we are not.

 

[dmp]

As for as the "grading" of sin, G-d will judge you on judgement day and yes, some sins will be "graded" worse than others.

What leads you to believe that?

There are many mansions after the judgment, because we are all different and we have all made different decisions in regards to our life with Christ. Since we have had different amounts of righteousness and wickedness in our lives, it is only appropriate that there should be different mansions.

Based on this, G-d must be "grading" sin, or we would all be considered equal in heaven. Which we are not.

Many? Many means "A shit-load". Different? (shrug). There is some implication in the bible that positions or awards could be different "The least of you will be the greatest in heaven" and junk. I'd suppose gop_jeff would better discuss that part, however.

 

[Avatar4321]

Is it really 'cheating'? People love to through that word around.

Yeah it would be. He is married to one woman and sleeping with another. if thats not cheating then i dont know what would be.

 

[ReillyT]

She also made statements to her mother saying different.

The judge had the ability to watch the examination of the witnesses and made his determination in part on their reliability and credibility. No one else has had such an opportunity and I am willing to give the judge the benefit of the doubt - especially because his order has been upheld in multiple appeals. Further, unless I missed something (forgive me if I have), the mother indicated that the statements made to her suggesting that Terri would want to continue to exist in her current state were made when Terri was 11-12 years old. I don't find that all too reliable an indicator of her state of mind as an adult.

 

[dilloduck]

I am willing to give the judge the benefit of the doubt

thats your first mistake

 

[ReillyT]

thats your first mistake

Why? It is a basic tenant of our judicial system that juries (in jury trials) or judges (in bench trials or certain types of other proceedings) are supposed to determine the credibility of witnesses. How else would our judicial system work if this were forbidden?

 

[dilloduck]

You are assuming that it works. With the advent of activist judges, we are now seeing how these robed freaks can make up laws to serve their personal agendas. It maybe the best system but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.