How much can renewable energy save us?

[expat_panama]

Wind And Solar Are Our Cheapest Electricity Sources 

That's so easy to say but we all know why nobody drives a wind powered car to work. We can say what we want about how this or that is so good that we need to force others to buy it, but the fact remains after decades and billions in forced tax subsidies--

--the so-called 'renewables' are just not worth it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

How much can renewable energy save us?

Since it has the capacity to satisfy human needs in ways that will prevent poisoning ourselves out of existence, it could be said that it will save us everything.

it really doesn't have the capacity to meet our power needs

Fusion? Or solar? Both do, but right now, fusion is only a dream

I don't think fusion fits into the renewable energy category it is a type of nuclear power

wind and solar will not ever meet our needs for power

 

[Skull Pilot]

How much can renewable energy save us?

Since it has the capacity to satisfy human needs in ways that will prevent poisoning ourselves out of existence, it could be said that it will save us everything.

it really doesn't have the capacity to meet our power needs

Yes, it does. Rate of consumption does not equal quantity needed.
But, it is much more in the interests of those hypnotized by power to keep us bound to relatively monopolistic, centralized types of energy. We just don't prefer peace to having our petty way.

Base line power will never be met by wind and solar
if you people are really concerned about emissions then you should be backing nuclear power.

If John Kerry and the other idiots in DC who were scared shitless because of some bad movie hadn't for all intents and purposes squashed our nuclear energy program we would today have at the very least a number of Integral fast reactors providing abundant emission free reliable power 24/7/365 an at best we would be researching and developing molten salt type reactors that are small easy and inexpensive to build and install and virtually maintenance free and would burn for fuel the nuclear waste from our obsolete reactors

 

[there4eyeM]

Before the Wright brothers, people would never fly.

 

[expat_panama]

Before the Wright brothers, people would never fly.

Exactly, Sure, after a century of government run aviation and having men getting killed in various kinds of balloons, Wilbur and Orville finally came in using their own money and built the first functional aircraft.

That's a lesson for the gov't energy people.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Before the Wright brothers, people would never fly.

wind has been tried in both Germany and the UK and has failed miserably
Real life output is less that 25% of rated capacity. Now tell me what would you rather invest in

A power supply that only puts out 25% of its rated capacity, a power source that only works half of the day and is only practical at some latitudes both of the former which need to be at some distance from the point of use which causes additional transmission related losses or a power source that can be deployed virtually anywhere and will provide 90% of it's rated capacity 24/7/365?

 

[Old Rocks]

Wind and solar have grown seemingly unstoppable.

While two years of crashing prices for oil, natural gas, and coal triggered dramatic downsizing in those industries, renewables have been thriving. Clean energy investment broke new records in 2015 and is now seeing twice as much global funding as fossil fuels.

One reason is that renewable energy is becoming ever cheaper to produce. Recent solar and wind auctions in Mexico and Morocco ended with winning bids from companies that promised to produce electricity at the cheapest rate, from any source, anywhere in the world, said Michael Liebreich, chairman of the advisory board for Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF).

"We're in a low-cost-of-oil environment for the foreseeable future," Liebreich said during his keynote address at the BNEF Summit in New York on Tuesday. "Did that stop renewable energy investment? Not at all."

Here's what's shaping power markets, in six charts from BNEF:

Renewables are beating fossil fuels 2 to 1

Investment in Power Capacity, 2008-2015

Source: BNEF, UNEP
Government subsidies have helped wind and solar get a foothold in global power markets, but economies of scale are the true driver of falling prices: The cost of solar power has fallen to 1/150th of its level in the 1970s, while the total amount of installed solar has soared 115,000-fold.

As solar prices fall, installations boom

Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels

Looks to me as if the renewables are on a roll.

 

[expat_panama]

...renewable energy is becoming ever cheaper to produce...

The title we saw seemed to agree -

Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels

--however the omitted part of the title was Record clean energy investment outpaces gas and coal 2 to 1. In other words, their point is they're talking about energy investing, not production costs.

A lot of us would be tickled to say you're right about production costs if you'd just agree that it's time to end 'renewable' subsidies. Unfortunately, the only way to make the public use green electricity is w/ taxes because the actual cost of green electricity is still way higher than standard sources:

 

[Old Rocks]

Wind Overtakes Coal Power in Europe as Turbines Head Offshore

Wind Overtakes Coal Power in Europe as Turbines Head Offshore
by
Jess Shankleman
February 8, 2017, 9:00 PM PST

• Coal surpassed as second-biggest potential source of capacity
• Intermittency of wind leaves coal producing more power

Wind farm developers installed more power than any other form of energy last year in Europe, helping turbines to overtake coal in terms of capacity, industry figures show.

European wind power grew 8 percent, to 153.7 gigawatts, comprising 16.7 percent of installed capacity and overtaking coal as the continent’s second-biggest potential source of energy, according to figures published Thursday by the WindEurope trade group. Gas-fired generation retained the largest share of installed capacity.

With countries seeking to curb greenhouse gas emissions that causes climate change by replacing fossil fuel plants with new forms of renewable energy, investment in wind grew to a record 27.5 billion euros ($29.3 billion) in 2016, WindEurope’s annual European Statistics report showed.

“Wind and coal are on two ends of the spectrum,” said Oliver Joy, a spokesman for WindEurope, in an e-mail. “Wind is steadily adding new capacity while coal is decommissioning far more than any technology in Europe.”

The group underscored that wind, which only produces power intermittently, hasn’t yet overtaken coal share in total power generation.

European wind investment increased 5 percent in 2016 from a year earlier driven by the offshore segment that attracted 18.2 billion euros, the report said. That offset a 29 percent investment decline in the onshore market.

Looks like wind is doing well in Europe.

 

[Old Rocks]

Coal phases out in wealthier countries first

What does that look like on a country-level basis? The world's first coal superpower, the U.K., now produces less power from coal than it has since at least 1850.

Canary in the coal mine: U.K.

Source: BNEF
More recently it's the oil and gas industry that's been under attack. Prices have tumbled and investments have started drying up. The number of oil rigs active in the U.S. fell last month to the lowest since records began in the 1940s. Producers—from tiny frontier drillers to massive petrol-producing nation-states—are creeping ever closer to insolvency.

"What we're talking about is miscalculation of risk," said BNEF's Liebreich. "We're talking about a business model that is predicated on never-ending growth, a business model that is predicated on being able to find unlimited supplies of capital."

The chart below shows independent oil producers and their ability to pay their debt.1 The pink quadrant at the bottom right represents the greatest threat to a company's solvency. By 2015, that quadrant starts to fill up, and Liebreich warned, "It's going to get uglier."

U.S. oil patch heads to the insolvency zone

Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels

Interesting numbers.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is an odd way to look at 'cost' for something that not only pays for itself over time, but essentially puts money back into the pocket.

 

[elektra]

power stations would be inherently safe, with no possibility of “meltdown” or “runaway reactions”--http://fusionforenergy.europa.eu/understandingfusion/merits.aspx

Runaway Reaction? Something that has never ever happened in a Nuclear Reactor. Fission reactors do not suffer Runaway Reactions! Talk about a false premise.

 

[elektra]

Coal phases out in wealthier countries first

Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels

Interesting numbers.

Now, the only industry that needs coal, is Wind and Solar, you can not make Wind and Solar without Coal.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Wind Overtakes Coal Power in Europe as Turbines Head Offshore

Wind Overtakes Coal Power in Europe as Turbines Head Offshore
by
Jess Shankleman
February 8, 2017, 9:00 PM PST

• Coal surpassed as second-biggest potential source of capacity
• Intermittency of wind leaves coal producing more power

Wind farm developers installed more power than any other form of energy last year in Europe, helping turbines to overtake coal in terms of capacity, industry figures show.

European wind power grew 8 percent, to 153.7 gigawatts, comprising 16.7 percent of installed capacity and overtaking coal as the continent’s second-biggest potential source of energy, according to figures published Thursday by the WindEurope trade group. Gas-fired generation retained the largest share of installed capacity.

With countries seeking to curb greenhouse gas emissions that causes climate change by replacing fossil fuel plants with new forms of renewable energy, investment in wind grew to a record 27.5 billion euros ($29.3 billion) in 2016, WindEurope’s annual European Statistics report showed.

“Wind and coal are on two ends of the spectrum,” said Oliver Joy, a spokesman for WindEurope, in an e-mail. “Wind is steadily adding new capacity while coal is decommissioning far more than any technology in Europe.”

The group underscored that wind, which only produces power intermittently, hasn’t yet overtaken coal share in total power generation.

European wind investment increased 5 percent in 2016 from a year earlier driven by the offshore segment that attracted 18.2 billion euros, the report said. That offset a 29 percent investment decline in the onshore market.

Looks like wind is doing well in Europe.

and you're still doing it

stop focusing on installed capacity as your measurement variable and instead focus on actual output

 

[expat_panama]

"It's going to get uglier." U.S. oil patch heads to the insolvency zone

What's interesting in our discussion here is the fact that we got 2 controversies where we disagree on what's happening but we can agree on policy.

The first is whether solar is viable; you say it is and I say it isn't but we should both agree (for opposite reasons) that public policy makers should end solar tax financed subsidies. The other controversy is whether the U.S. petroleum industry outlook is rebound or collapse. If you seriously believe your view that the sector's about to tank then many of my collegues in the financial markets would love to sell you short contracts that would pay you handsomely if you're right. Pse let me know when you've thought it through.

One last thought, if you decide that solar is not worth risking your own money, then I'd beg you to consider how I feel about the previous president taking my money by force and wasting it on solar scams like Solyndra LLC when Obama-backed green energy failures leave taxpayers with $2.2 billion tab, audit finds

 

[there4eyeM]

We do a world wide energy audit. We find out how much energy we derive now from renewables. We learn to live on that. We learn to improve on it for the luxuries we want. We gain a more beautiful, more livable world. We develop our creativity. We find new methods, new industries, new ideas. We do the things that make humans so wonderful.
Or, we simmer slowly in the mess we're in and die a dismal death.
Unrealistic? Hope is unrealistic, but it's what fueled Christianity, for example. How did twelve hunted, persecuted idealists even survive, let alone more or less conquer the world?

 

[Old Rocks]

"It's going to get uglier." U.S. oil patch heads to the insolvency zone

What's interesting in our discussion here is the fact that we got 2 controversies where we disagree on what's happening but we can agree on policy.

The first is whether solar is viable; you say it is and I say it isn't but we should both agree (for opposite reasons) that public policy makers should end solar tax financed subsidies. The other controversy is whether the U.S. petroleum industry outlook is rebound or collapse. If you seriously believe your view that the sector's about to tank then many of my collegues in the financial markets would love to sell you short contracts that would pay you handsomely if you're right. Pse let me know when you've thought it through.

One last thought, if you decide that solar is not worth risking your own money, then I'd beg you to consider how I feel about the previous president taking my money by force and wasting it on solar scams like Solyndra LLC when Obama-backed green energy failures leave taxpayers with $2.2 billion tab, audit finds

Obama Has Done More for Clean Energy Than You Think

The biggest challenge the loan program faced may not have been public criticism of failed deals like Solyndra, Fisker Automotive and Beacon Power or technology letdowns such as the Ivanpah solar-thermal power plant producing less electricity than expected. Rather, the biggest challenge came from within the Obama administration itself, particularly the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB), which stood athwart greater ambition. For example, one deal, dubbed SolarStrong, would have loaned $344 million to put solar panels on housing on military bases across the country. But OMB axed the deal because budget rules require it to assume that the Department of Defense might not have the appropriations to repay the loan in future decades. "At which point, all you can do is go home and have a scotch," Silver recalls.

"Military appropriations are not considered permanent appropriations," explains Peter Davidson, who oversaw the LPO from 2013 to June of this year. "It's the environment we have to work in, we try and do what we can."

In the end, the LPO's successes helped kill off some of its own portfolio of projects. Building utility-scale solar photovoltaic plants like Agua Caliente and Antelope Valley helped render obsolete solar thermal power plants like Ivanpah and Solana as silicon technology improved dramatically and costs dropped whereas the price of steel and glass remained relatively high. Large photovoltaic installations also helped make solar panels so cheap that it drove companies like Solyndra—whose business model relied on PV remaining expensive—into bankruptcy. "We were simply financing the best deals available," Silver says, noting that the program could not independently seek out good projects. "The single thing that bound all these applications together was not their size or technology or geography or financing structure. The single thing that bound them together is that they applied."

That also means the loan program may have taken too little risk. The program has made a profit of nearly $1 billion in interest payments to the U.S Treasury to date. At least $5 billion more is expected over the next few decades as loans are paid back. That compares with $780 million in losses to date, the bulk of which is accounted for by the $535 million loaned to Solyndra. And more money could be made if the program were to ever sell its group of loans rather than managing them for the next few decades.

I think that I put more trust in the assessment of the Scientific American than a newspaper.

 

[danielpalos]

How much can renewable energy save us?

Since it has the capacity to satisfy human needs in ways that will prevent poisoning ourselves out of existence, it could be said that it will save us everything.

it really doesn't have the capacity to meet our power needs

we need a better grid and increased capacitance, to "catch and store" lighting energy.

 

[Skull Pilot]

How much can renewable energy save us?

Since it has the capacity to satisfy human needs in ways that will prevent poisoning ourselves out of existence, it could be said that it will save us everything.

it really doesn't have the capacity to meet our power needs

we need a better grid and increased capacitance, to "catch and store" lighting energy.

no

 

[danielpalos]

According to a recent report, even a massive Marshall like plan (huge investment) in renewables will not meet the goals laid out in the Paris Accords.

"Moreover, the share of fossil fuels—nearly 87 percent—has not budged due to a retreat in nuclear power over the same 15-year period."


"Even a renewables Marshall Plan would face an unyielding deadline: To stay under 2C, the global economy must be carbon neutral—producing no more CO2 than can be absorbed by oceans and forests—by mid-century."

Renewables can't deliver Paris climate goals: study

So how are they going to spend that "carbon tax" money many politicians are so eager to start collecting?

.

technology is improving all the time. many wind energy farms merely need to upgrade to the latest wind generating technologies, to sextuple their energy output. that is where our tax dollars should be going; not, playing "shellgames" with Statism.