How many times have we said it?

[The Gadfly]

Sure volunteering as a fire fighter and fixing homes are good things, but its not the same thing as Military service. I am not saying there is a "us versus them" mentality and I hope we never get there, however there is a serious disconnect right now between the Military, Veterans, Military retirees and the civilian population. Decades ago the Military was alot bigger and alot of people had family that was drafted to fight in Vietnam and Korea, or were drafted themselves so they were familiar with the Military and how it worked. Now things are totally different, its an all volunteer service which is a good thing however the Military isn't quite as big as it used to be, so for more people the Military is just something they see in war movies and video games and is something completely alien to them. Alot of people think all of the Military are a bunch of grunts with no real skills besides killing people, they think our service is "cushy" and we get paid handsomely, these are all comments I have seen on this board and the posters who said them were not stupid, thats the scary thing.

Dunno HG, I see the military as just another career option with opportunities ranging from entry level service and production careers through middle and upper management opportunities straight through to parlaying a Service Career into influencing policy via politics or lobbying for defense contractors and the true 'good life'.

Every career option has its golden parachutes and every career option has wooden eggs - depends on how hard you work, how lucky you are and what connections you bring to the game.

I understand where you are coming from this post however the Military really isn't just another job or a career, it really is a different lifestyle and when you are in the Military you have to follow all the civilian laws as well as the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice).

Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In most jobs or careers when you are tired of what you are doing or want to pursue other things, you can just quit. In the Military you cannot leave until your date of separation and even than you can be stop lossed. The Military is more than just a job, in regular civilian jobs when you leave work you can do whatever you want, in the Military you are technically on call on duty 24 hours a day. The Military is really a big commitment that shouldn't be taken lightly when you sign those papers at the MEPS.

HG, you're right. With the percentage of the population who have ever served in the military getting smaller and smaller (and it's only going to get smaller still, with the WW ii vets passing on, the vets of Korea and the draftee army of the fifties and the Vietnam era getting into old age), more and more of the population has little to no clue what serving in the armed forces is like. True, a lot has changed, with an all-volunteer force, but still, no one is getting rich off the pay (especially junior enlisted personnel!) and the job hasn't gotten any easier.

It's not JUST another job choice; the military is different, and definitely not for everyone. In some ways, it's gotten harder, While some people did multiple tours in Vietnam, one was only required to do ONE. Now, combat and support troops are doing multiple deployments to combat zones. That's anything but "cushy". A military career is only parlayed into one of those "good life" affairs by a select (and lucky) few. That last is the exception, not the rule, but the way I've seen some people here (with zero military experience of their own) talk, you'd think career military personnel and retirees have it made. I know a lot of retired officers, and the only ones I know who have "gotten rich" went into NON-DEFENSE-RELATED business after retiring from military service. No one just handed them a damn thing; they went out and earned it, like anyone else.

I think some of the permanent civilians here need a reality check.

 

[High_Gravity]

Dunno HG, I see the military as just another career option with opportunities ranging from entry level service and production careers through middle and upper management opportunities straight through to parlaying a Service Career into influencing policy via politics or lobbying for defense contractors and the true 'good life'.

Every career option has its golden parachutes and every career option has wooden eggs - depends on how hard you work, how lucky you are and what connections you bring to the game.

I understand where you are coming from this post however the Military really isn't just another job or a career, it really is a different lifestyle and when you are in the Military you have to follow all the civilian laws as well as the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice).

Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In most jobs or careers when you are tired of what you are doing or want to pursue other things, you can just quit. In the Military you cannot leave until your date of separation and even than you can be stop lossed. The Military is more than just a job, in regular civilian jobs when you leave work you can do whatever you want, in the Military you are technically on call on duty 24 hours a day. The Military is really a big commitment that shouldn't be taken lightly when you sign those papers at the MEPS.

HG, you're right. With the percentage of the population who have ever served in the military getting smaller and smaller (and it's only going to get smaller still, with the WW ii vets passing on, the vets of Korea and the draftee army of the fifties and the Vietnam era getting into old age), more and more of the population has little to no clue what serving in the armed forces is like. True, a lot has changed, with an all-volunteer force, but still, no one is getting rich off the pay (especially junior enlisted personnel!) and the job hasn't gotten any easier.

It's not JUST another job choice; the military is different, and definitely not for everyone. In some ways, it's gotten harder, While some people did multiple tours in Vietnam, one was only required to do ONE. Now, combat and support troops are doing multiple deployments to combat zones. That's anything but "cushy". A military career is only parlayed into one of those "good life" affairs by a select (and lucky) few. That last is the exception, not the rule, but the way I've seen some people here (with zero military experience of their own) talk, you'd think career military personnel and retirees have it made. I know a lot of retired officers, and the only ones I know who have "gotten rich" went into NON-DEFENSE-RELATED business after retiring from military service. No one just handed them a damn thing; they went out and earned it, like anyone else.

I think some of the permanent civilians here need a reality check.

You pretty much nailed it brother, the gap is widening as time goes on, like you said back in the day alot of people either had family in the service because of the drafts or served themselves, now thats not the case anymore and alot of people form their opinions of the service off of video games, war movies, the history channel or just plaine lies. As far as the Military being a "cushy" job and Military retirees making truckloads of cash, I really don't know who started that lie and why people believe it, you only have to google the Military pay scale and Retiree pay to see thats not the case. Like you said the only retired Military who are living cushy are usually officers with high ranks who transfer to federal jobs at the Pentagon or defense contracting, the amount of bullshit that people believe about the Military worries me.

 

[Care4all]

But But But

It's all free!!

I was told, if I did 20 years, I'd get 100% of my base and free medical and dental for me and my family, until the kids were 18, for life!!!

pfft

By my 5th year in that 100% was upped to 27 years, and looking at the base then, I was unsure how people made it w/o another job.

Great thing though, research was done and it was discovered that Chiefs [ E-7's and up] lived about 5 years after they retired.

Yeah, easy life and coushy jobs.... tell it to my knees.

my father is a retired USAF Chief Master sgt, he joined at 17 years old, put in 22 years, retired at 39 years of age....he's been drawing his retirement since he was 39, and has had his medical and my mom's medical, paid for since, with a MINOR contribution on his part....he has drawn this military retirement for 41 YEARS NOW, he is now 80.....i dunno where you got your figure of living only 5 years after retirement crud, but it simply is NOT TRUE.....most men do NOT DIE in their early 40's.....

and yes, my father and mother are pretty well to do.....due to drawing this retirement from his youth, from 39, while working another job as well and drawing that money too.... and because he never had to pay for healthcare coverage, the way most private sector workers do.

benefits are EXCELLENT for military retirees, much greater than the private sector.....in the private sector you CAN NOT DRAW a retirement pension until you are 55 years old at the minimum, not at 39 yrs old, like my pop.

BUT, civilians didn't spend a year in viet nam, a year in greenland w/o their family, and a year in Alaska without their family and didn't have to move their wife and kids( from schools )once a year, etc......

Pay was crap, until he made master sgt, senior master sgt, chief mastr sgt.....

But the benefits promised made up for the decade and a half, of crappy pay.

now, my folks are richer than most people....so it all paid off in the end.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Dunno HG, I see the military as just another career option with opportunities ranging from entry level service and production careers through middle and upper management opportunities straight through to parlaying a Service Career into influencing policy via politics or lobbying for defense contractors and the true 'good life'.

Every career option has its golden parachutes and every career option has wooden eggs - depends on how hard you work, how lucky you are and what connections you bring to the game.

I understand where you are coming from this post however the Military really isn't just another job or a career, it really is a different lifestyle and when you are in the Military you have to follow all the civilian laws as well as the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice).

Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In most jobs or careers when you are tired of what you are doing or want to pursue other things, you can just quit. In the Military you cannot leave until your date of separation and even than you can be stop lossed. The Military is more than just a job, in regular civilian jobs when you leave work you can do whatever you want, in the Military you are technically on call on duty 24 hours a day. The Military is really a big commitment that shouldn't be taken lightly when you sign those papers at the MEPS.

HG, you're right. With the percentage of the population who have ever served in the military getting smaller and smaller (and it's only going to get smaller still, with the WW ii vets passing on, the vets of Korea and the draftee army of the fifties and the Vietnam era getting into old age), more and more of the population has little to no clue what serving in the armed forces is like. True, a lot has changed, with an all-volunteer force, but still, no one is getting rich off the pay (especially junior enlisted personnel!) and the job hasn't gotten any easier.

It's not JUST another job choice; the military is different, and definitely not for everyone. In some ways, it's gotten harder, While some people did multiple tours in Vietnam, one was only required to do ONE. Now, combat and support troops are doing multiple deployments to combat zones. That's anything but "cushy". A military career is only parlayed into one of those "good life" affairs by a select (and lucky) few. That last is the exception, not the rule, but the way I've seen some people here (with zero military experience of their own) talk, you'd think career military personnel and retirees have it made. I know a lot of retired officers, and the only ones I know who have "gotten rich" went into NON-DEFENSE-RELATED business after retiring from military service. No one just handed them a damn thing; they went out and earned it, like anyone else.

I think some of the permanent civilians here need a reality check.

 

[Warrior102]

Once again congress needs money and where do they look? Straight at Military Retiree benefits.

The Senate deficit-cutting plan proposed by the so-called "Gang of Six" could mean a reduction in retiree COLA and demands that the armed services committees make $80 billion in cuts to military entitlements over the next decade.

http://www.military.com/military-report/senate-seeks-$80b-in-benefit-cuts?ESRC=miltrep.nl

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. Here goes another useless letter to congressman, Senators, and the White house.....................

Every time there's a Dem president Ollie... same old drill. Remember the Carter/Clinton years? Horrible for us in uniform

 

[Warrior102]

But But But

It's all free!!

I was told, if I did 20 years, I'd get 100% of my base and free medical and dental for me and my family, until the kids were 18, for life!!!

pfft

By my 5th year in that 100% was upped to 27 years, and looking at the base then, I was unsure how people made it w/o another job.

Great thing though, research was done and it was discovered that Chiefs [ E-7's and up] lived about 5 years after they retired.

Yeah, easy life and coushy jobs.... tell it to my knees.

my father is a retired USAF Chief Master sgt, he joined at 17 years old, put in 22 years, retired at 39 years of age....he's been drawing his retirement since he was 39, and has had his medical and my mom's medical, paid for since, with a MINOR contribution on his part....he has drawn this military retirement for 41 YEARS NOW, he is now 80.....i dunno where you got your figure of living only 5 years after retirement crud, but it simply is NOT TRUE.....most men do NOT DIE in their early 40's.....

and yes, my father and mother are pretty well to do.....due to drawing this retirement from his youth, from 39, while working another job as well and drawing that money too.... and because he never had to pay for healthcare coverage, the way most private sector workers do.

benefits are EXCELLENT for military retirees, much greater than the private sector.....in the private sector you CAN NOT DRAW a retirement pension until you are 55 years old at the minimum, not at 39 yrs old, like my pop.

BUT, civilians didn't spend a year in viet nam, a year in greenland w/o their family, and a year in Alaska without their family and didn't have to move their wife and kids( from schools )once a year, etc......

Pay was crap, until he made master sgt, senior master sgt, chief mastr sgt.....

But the benefits promised made up for the decade and a half, of crappy pay.

now, my folks are richer than most people....so it all paid off in the end.

You are spot on ! Life doesn't get "better" (for the families mainly) in the military until you reach at least E7. For some, that's 15+ years. That's 15 years of living in substandard housing with shitty pay.

 

[Care4all]

dad went to work for the FAA after the USAF, they hired him at a GS12, he ret from them a gs14.....that's when he finally began making money....for the Civil Service....more than the military would ever pay....even a Chief!

 

[Divine Wind]

You are lucky they don't take all yo damn blood money and just send ya a lifetime supply of K-Rations and a PUP tent..ya whiny bitch. You would still be better off than millions of vets living homeless on the streets and under overpasses.

Ya wanted to serve?....well serve!!

All veterans deserve their due and most are not receiving it. While there aren't "millions of vets living homeless" of as you assert, it is definitely far too many; between 130,000 and 200,000 on any given night.

Most of those obviously have mental health issues and are in need of treatment our government is not providing them. This sad state of affairs has been going on for too long.

From 2007: Veterans make up 1 in 4 homeless - USATODAY.com

The National Alliance to End Homelessness, a public education non-profit, based the findings of its report on numbers from Veterans Affairs and the Census Bureau. 2005 data estimated that 194,254 homeless people out of 744,313 on any given night were veterans.

In comparison, the VA says that 20 years ago, the estimated number of veterans who were homeless on any given night was 250,000.

From 2009: http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/veterans.pdf

Far too many veterans are homeless in America—between 130,000 and 200,000 on any given night—
representing between one fourth and one-fifth of all homeless people. Three times that many veterans are
struggling with excessive rent burdens and thus at increased risk of homelessness.
Further, there is concern about the future. Women veterans and those with disabilities including post
traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury are more likely to become homeless, and a higher
percentage of veterans returning from the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have these
characteristics.
The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that 131,000 veterans are homeless on any given
night1. And approximately twice that many experience homelessness over the course of a year.
Conservatively, one out of every three homeless men who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our
cities and rural communities has put on a uniform and served this country.
Approximately 40% of homeless men are veterans, although veterans comprise only 34% of the general
adult male population. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans estimates that on any given night,
200,000 veterans are homeless, and 400,000 veterans will experience homelessness during the course of a
year (National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, 2006). 97% of those homeless veterans will be male
(Department of Veterans Affairs, 2008).

 

[shintao]

COLA? It's been so long since I got one of those that I have forgotten what it is...

I think it is coke laced with cocaine.

 

[shintao]

Once again congress needs money and where do they look? Straight at Military Retiree benefits.

The Senate deficit-cutting plan proposed by the so-called "Gang of Six" could mean a reduction in retiree COLA and demands that the armed services committees make $80 billion in cuts to military entitlements over the next decade.

http://www.military.com/military-report/senate-seeks-$80b-in-benefit-cuts?ESRC=miltrep.nl

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. Here goes another useless letter to congressman, Senators, and the White house.....................

Every time there's a Dem president Ollie... same old drill. Remember the Carter/Clinton years? Horrible for us in uniform

And Bush presidentcy was a terrorist nightmare for servicemen. We will never know how many hero's came home in body bags in the middle of the night, and were never honored.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Once again congress needs money and where do they look? Straight at Military Retiree benefits.




http://www.military.com/military-report/senate-seeks-$80b-in-benefit-cuts?ESRC=miltrep.nl

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. Here goes another useless letter to congressman, Senators, and the White house.....................

Every time there's a Dem president Ollie... same old drill. Remember the Carter/Clinton years? Horrible for us in uniform

And Bush presidentcy was a terrorist nightmare for servicemen. We will never know how many hero's came home in body bags in the middle of the night, and were never honored.

None.

 

[Divine Wind]

And Bush presidentcy was a terrorist nightmare for servicemen. We will never know how many hero's came home in body bags in the middle of the night, and were never honored.

None.

Agreed. Just because the public or the media weren't allowed to gawk doesn't mean any service personnel were treated less than the heroes they are. There is very strict protocol and tradition in how our military takes care of our fallen.

 

[woodjack]

I actually saw an article that called it "gold plated retirement benefits"...seems they are trumping it up to get the mass pissed off about the retirements......lthey talk about this every few years, what is troubling is that they may get it this time....I can see a mass of people in the upper tiers and lower tiers getting out before it passes if it does...for the upper tiers so they can still get their benefits lower tiers once they get thier GI bill......heck if I wanted that other deal I would have went to the reserves....only reseason I stayed active duty...funny though is the downsizing that happened in the 90's and 2000's Gates recently said 0.6% americans serve in the military of that less then 30% stay in till retirement...I could think of a thousand things to cut before you hit retirements.....

 

[SFC Ollie]

Well they've cut the retirees more than I care to think about. And I expect they will revamp the entire system before this is over with. My bet is there will be no more 20 year retirees and the quality of the service is what will suffer.

 

[woodjack]

lets see how this works...they want to raise tricare rates, get rid of Cola, downsizing commisaries, start paying retirements at age 59 or 60......by the time I turn 60...my retirement packege will be -1k, because I owe the government for tricare.....yup its worth staying in 20....sell that to new recruits

 

[High_Gravity]

Well they've cut the retirees more than I care to think about. And I expect they will revamp the entire system before this is over with. My bet is there will be no more 20 year retirees and the quality of the service is what will suffer.

They were talking about taking away the 20 year retirement thing even when I was still in, I don't think they should because thats one of the benefits that keeps people in the service when they have been in a while.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Well they've cut the retirees more than I care to think about. And I expect they will revamp the entire system before this is over with. My bet is there will be no more 20 year retirees and the quality of the service is what will suffer.

They were talking about taking away the 20 year retirement thing even when I was still in, I don't think they should because thats one of the benefits that keeps people in the service when they have been in a while.

I know, what I don't know is what quality of NCO will stay 20 years and take the chance of finding a really decent job at the age of 40 or 50... I know I didn't get several jobs because the companies hired younger guys........ One guy even told me they were giving a job to this young college kid because they could offer him less. I told him to make me an offer but they wouldn't....... This is what many don't think about. The older you are the less marketable you become. Just like not buying a house until you are in your 40's or 50's. Some civilians have their homes paid for by that time. But, such is life..............

 

[High_Gravity]

Well they've cut the retirees more than I care to think about. And I expect they will revamp the entire system before this is over with. My bet is there will be no more 20 year retirees and the quality of the service is what will suffer.

They were talking about taking away the 20 year retirement thing even when I was still in, I don't think they should because thats one of the benefits that keeps people in the service when they have been in a while.

I know, what I don't know is what quality of NCO will stay 20 years and take the chance of finding a really decent job at the age of 40 or 50... I know I didn't get several jobs because the companies hired younger guys........ One guy even told me they were giving a job to this young college kid because they could offer him less. I told him to make me an offer but they wouldn't....... This is what many don't think about. The older you are the less marketable you become. Just like not buying a house until you are in your 40's or 50's. Some civilians have their homes paid for by that time. But, such is life..............

You are absolutely right Ollie, if you take the 20 year retirement thing off the table you basically leave no incentive for someone to stay in because like you said, companies are not interested in hiring older people, they want to hire the younger guys for cheaper pay. With the 20 year retirement off the table people are going to be getting out of the service left and right to try and get jobs while they still can, our Military is going to be totally fucked without our quality enlisted NCO's.

 

[Lokiate]

Once again congress needs money and where do they look? Straight at Military Retiree benefits.

The Senate deficit-cutting plan proposed by the so-called "Gang of Six" could mean a reduction in retiree COLA and demands that the armed services committees make $80 billion in cuts to military entitlements over the next decade.

http://www.military.com/military-report/senate-seeks-$80b-in-benefit-cuts?ESRC=miltrep.nl

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. Here goes another useless letter to congressman, Senators, and the White house.....................

Of course, we take the cuts while they sit on six figures. They shaft everyone but themselves.

 

[Brian175]

I don't know how they plan on keeping senior NCOs. The pay really isn't that great for all the stress and hours. Traditionally once a guy hit around 10 years they'd figure why not do another 10 and get that retirement pension. Even then I saw a few guys bounce and now without any sort of incentive I don't know how they plan on keeping critical MOSs. Especially with such a great GI Bill. I imagine they'll be fine now as many will get grandfathered in, but later down the road the military will lose it's biggest incentive to keep beating your body up and utilizing skills that don't have much in the way of civilian application. I hope this is just fear-mongering and in no way will be passed. The military personnel will suffer and the defense of our nation from the lack of quality personnel will suffer even more.