How Low Can the TEAMSTERS go?

[GHook93]

Are you that fucking stupid that you can't see it? And just WHY do you think Honda and Toyota workers "do just fine"? Because the Corporate Bosses want to keep the UAW out!!

"Toyota pays high wages in part to avoid the UAW," Shaiken said, adding that economists would refer to Toyota's high wages as the "union threat effect," meaning companies pay union-comparable wages to fend off organizing efforts and the risk of a strike.

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle: aftermarket News

Those workers making foreign brand cars ought to be kissing the UAW's ass because they wouldn't have it nearly as good if their owners weren't so worried about the UAW.

The GM, Ford and Chrysler issues caused by the UAW is more than competitive wages! Its more on the lines with the proven unsustainable and company killing pension and retiree benefit plans! The UAW uses strong arm tactics to get both! Both where the 10,000 lb gorilla in the room that sunk those companies requiring bailouts!

The UAW doesn't allow the Big Three to adapt to signs of the time! Adapt wages to economic times as an example. Honda, Toyota and Nissan aren't strong armed by these Bolsheviks and have flexibility to run their company the American way (even though they are Japanese companies!)!

I swear the ignorance on this board on unions is unfuckingbelievable.

The United Auto Workers said members voted overwhelmingly to accept concessions with General Motors Corp. as the U.S. automaker moves toward bankruptcy.

UAW members voted 74 percent in favor of the deal that includes giving up cost-of-living raises and performance bonuses and one paid holiday in 2010 and 2011.

The deal also suspends tuition assistance and dental coverage, and reduces prescription drug coverage, the Detroit News reported Friday.

"It was a tough, but necessary vote," Local 599 leader Terry Everman in Flint, Mich., told the newspaper.

UAW approves GM concessions - UPI.com

Yeah, that sure sounds like "strong arm" tactics to me!!

I just love it when someone says.... "we must adapt wages to economic times". I'm sure you would be just peachy if your muti-billion dollar company walked up to you and said, "We need to cut your wages and benefits to survive. Oh by the way, be sure to congratulate the CEO on his generous wage increase the board just approved."

I love it even more when I am told "we need to cut wages to compete in the global market". Ok...fine. Then let's cut all of our wages to $2.00 per hour and reduce our standard of living to that of 3rd world nations.

You and daveman must be cut from the same cloth. He was saying the most wonderfully stupid things against unions in another thread. So I handed his ass to him.

You do realize how Ch 11 works right? Everything goes up in the air. Contracts may be voided and there must be an agreement to avoid liquidation.

I like how you make them seem responsible now that their employer was about to go under! Yet giving their employer the flexibility not to get there or get with the times and opt for individual retirement plans vs unsustainable pension plans!

 

[sangha]

The GM, Ford and Chrysler issues caused by the UAW is more than competitive wages! Its more on the lines with the proven unsustainable and company killing pension and retiree benefit plans! The UAW uses strong arm tactics to get both! Both where the 10,000 lb gorilla in the room that sunk those companies requiring bailouts!

The UAW doesn't allow the Big Three to adapt to signs of the time! Adapt wages to economic times as an example. Honda, Toyota and Nissan aren't strong armed by these Bolsheviks and have flexibility to run their company the American way (even though they are Japanese companies!)!

I swear the ignorance on this board on unions is unfuckingbelievable.

The United Auto Workers said members voted overwhelmingly to accept concessions with General Motors Corp. as the U.S. automaker moves toward bankruptcy.

UAW members voted 74 percent in favor of the deal that includes giving up cost-of-living raises and performance bonuses and one paid holiday in 2010 and 2011.

The deal also suspends tuition assistance and dental coverage, and reduces prescription drug coverage, the Detroit News reported Friday.

"It was a tough, but necessary vote," Local 599 leader Terry Everman in Flint, Mich., told the newspaper.

UAW approves GM concessions - UPI.com

Yeah, that sure sounds like "strong arm" tactics to me!!

I just love it when someone says.... "we must adapt wages to economic times". I'm sure you would be just peachy if your muti-billion dollar company walked up to you and said, "We need to cut your wages and benefits to survive. Oh by the way, be sure to congratulate the CEO on his generous wage increase the board just approved."

I love it even more when I am told "we need to cut wages to compete in the global market". Ok...fine. Then let's cut all of our wages to $2.00 per hour and reduce our standard of living to that of 3rd world nations.

You and daveman must be cut from the same cloth. He was saying the most wonderfully stupid things against unions in another thread. So I handed his ass to him.

Oh please spare us the "woe is us" nonsense.
The UAW has had the US auto co's over a barrel for 60 years.
There never was a anything resembling a negotiation for a contract. It was a mugging.
Now the gravy train is at a permanent halt and you people are crying like little school girls.
Sorry, but no way is a factory worker worth ovr $70( wages and bennies included). Especially in light of the fact that non-union plants make better quality more reliable autos and the employee labor cost is about 60% of UAW.
100% paid medical. 100% paid pension. Double time and half for working a holiday...Please.
Look, you union people are absent of the real world where workers are paid based on merit, productivity, where the guy next to you who achieves a higher standard of performance gets a wage increase while the guy who "puts in his time" is left behind and is eventually replaced.
Unions create complacency and mediocrity.
It's over....7% and dropping. That's all!

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say.

Those #'s are lies. If this wingnut is using the standard lie, then he's including the future cost of healthcare for all auto workers.

I bet the wingnut can't post a link to a credible, no rightwing source

 

[thereisnospoon]

I swear the ignorance on this board on unions is unfuckingbelievable.

The United Auto Workers said members voted overwhelmingly to accept concessions with General Motors Corp. as the U.S. automaker moves toward bankruptcy.

UAW members voted 74 percent in favor of the deal that includes giving up cost-of-living raises and performance bonuses and one paid holiday in 2010 and 2011.

The deal also suspends tuition assistance and dental coverage, and reduces prescription drug coverage, the Detroit News reported Friday.

"It was a tough, but necessary vote," Local 599 leader Terry Everman in Flint, Mich., told the newspaper.

UAW approves GM concessions - UPI.com

Yeah, that sure sounds like "strong arm" tactics to me!!

I just love it when someone says.... "we must adapt wages to economic times". I'm sure you would be just peachy if your muti-billion dollar company walked up to you and said, "We need to cut your wages and benefits to survive. Oh by the way, be sure to congratulate the CEO on his generous wage increase the board just approved."

I love it even more when I am told "we need to cut wages to compete in the global market". Ok...fine. Then let's cut all of our wages to $2.00 per hour and reduce our standard of living to that of 3rd world nations.

You and daveman must be cut from the same cloth. He was saying the most wonderfully stupid things against unions in another thread. So I handed his ass to him.

Oh please spare us the "woe is us" nonsense.
The UAW has had the US auto co's over a barrel for 60 years.
There never was a anything resembling a negotiation for a contract. It was a mugging.
Now the gravy train is at a permanent halt and you people are crying like little school girls.
Sorry, but no way is a factory worker worth ovr $70( wages and bennies included). Especially in light of the fact that non-union plants make better quality more reliable autos and the employee labor cost is about 60% of UAW.
100% paid medical. 100% paid pension. Double time and half for working a holiday...Please.
Look, you union people are absent of the real world where workers are paid based on merit, productivity, where the guy next to you who achieves a higher standard of performance gets a wage increase while the guy who "puts in his time" is left behind and is eventually replaced.
Unions create complacency and mediocrity.
It's over....7% and dropping. That's all!

Uh-huh. I have one advantage over you. I know a LOT of people in non-union shops. You ain't shitting anybody. Wages averaging $15 an hour, no health insurance, no sick days, no pension and no advance unless you "know someone" (and kiss their ass) and their companies are all making great profits.

In my power plant I get all those things and the company is making record profits every year. We work our asses off and not everybody can handle the work, the heat, the swing shift and working most holidays, probably you included.

C'mon now. Admit it. They, like you, would kill to have my job. You can only wish you were me (if you could handle the work).

So go on crying about how good we have it and how bad you have it. God knows if you had the chance you'd JUMP on a union job.

Defined pension benefits are OVER, Get it? They are unsustainable.
Companies offer benefits as incentives to attract better more qualified people. Benefits are NOT an entitlement.
The other issue with unions is their demands for far above the market rate for similar work. For example. A couple of years ago, just for giggles I was considering a relocation to the Northeast. I filled out a profile on careerbuilder.com. I found a position for a public utility in NY State. They needed meter readers. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the starting wage. $24.02 per hour!!!! No wonder why utility rates in NY are so astronomical. That is a ridiculous amount of money for a no-skill position that a high school kid could do for 1/3 the wage level. What are these people thinking about?!!!!!
Please do not shoot back about some nonsense about livable wage. A job that requires no skills, no education and is an entry level position and not a job one should be living on. It is a stepping stone. Where I live the utility companies farm out that type of work to contractors which cost a lot less. Hence my utility rates are much lower.

Power plant? You mean for a public utility? In effect you have a pubic sector job.
Oh and my job....I'm available 24/7/365. There is no need to enter a pissing contest over who's job is more difficult. That's gauche.
I enjoy my work. No complaining. This is the business I have chosen. What's more, unlike union people, I have a vested interest in profitability. So there's no sense of entitlement here. When I go out on a call, there is no "the boss is screwing me" bullshit.
Your pro-union mentality is steeped in 100 years of "us"( workers) vs "them"( business operator).
You union people look upon your employer as the enemy. You look at what the upper level management has and you think you are entitled to it. You people think everyone should be paid the same.
There's really no sense in arguing the point given the fact that unions are on their way out.
Yes unions helped create the middle class. Unions have done their thing. Now they have become outdated. The work rules stand in the way of productivity and achievement.
I worked very briefly in a NYC unin paint shop. Most inefficient crap I had ever seen. You can't get anything done. Work cannot start until 8am. No work after 3:30 pm. In fact we were forced to "clean up" at 2:30. One project we were on was running behind because the electricians were off so many days. Our foremen asked the electrical foremen if we could stick around for an extra hour. The electrical foreman said "sure". Here was the catch. Our employer would have to pay one of their guys a 4 hour overtime minimum to stay there to turn off the lights when we were through. We were not allowed to turn off the lights ourselves.
Imagine that. The electricians union had to flip a switch. What horseshit. We had dumb rules as well. I asked one of the guys why we didn't use a 10" finishing knife to apply the final coat of drywall mud. He looked at me like I was from Jupiter. He told me the union did not allow anything wider than 6" because a 10" knife would make the job go too fast
I got the hell out of there. Never looked back. I was young and after talking to my dad , I explained to him that working on such a job would make me lose the strong work ethic I had learned from him.
I can share so many stories about union inefficiencies and frustrations, but I'll stop here. I have a headache.
There's no argument.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I swear the ignorance on this board on unions is unfuckingbelievable.

The United Auto Workers said members voted overwhelmingly to accept concessions with General Motors Corp. as the U.S. automaker moves toward bankruptcy.

UAW members voted 74 percent in favor of the deal that includes giving up cost-of-living raises and performance bonuses and one paid holiday in 2010 and 2011.

The deal also suspends tuition assistance and dental coverage, and reduces prescription drug coverage, the Detroit News reported Friday.

"It was a tough, but necessary vote," Local 599 leader Terry Everman in Flint, Mich., told the newspaper.

UAW approves GM concessions - UPI.com

Yeah, that sure sounds like "strong arm" tactics to me!!

I just love it when someone says.... "we must adapt wages to economic times". I'm sure you would be just peachy if your muti-billion dollar company walked up to you and said, "We need to cut your wages and benefits to survive. Oh by the way, be sure to congratulate the CEO on his generous wage increase the board just approved."

I love it even more when I am told "we need to cut wages to compete in the global market". Ok...fine. Then let's cut all of our wages to $2.00 per hour and reduce our standard of living to that of 3rd world nations.

You and daveman must be cut from the same cloth. He was saying the most wonderfully stupid things against unions in another thread. So I handed his ass to him.

Oh please spare us the "woe is us" nonsense.
The UAW has had the US auto co's over a barrel for 60 years.
There never was a anything resembling a negotiation for a contract. It was a mugging.
Now the gravy train is at a permanent halt and you people are crying like little school girls.
Sorry, but no way is a factory worker worth ovr $70( wages and bennies included). Especially in light of the fact that non-union plants make better quality more reliable autos and the employee labor cost is about 60% of UAW.
100% paid medical. 100% paid pension. Double time and half for working a holiday...Please.
Look, you union people are absent of the real world where workers are paid based on merit, productivity, where the guy next to you who achieves a higher standard of performance gets a wage increase while the guy who "puts in his time" is left behind and is eventually replaced.
Unions create complacency and mediocrity.
It's over....7% and dropping. That's all!

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say.

Those #'s are lies. If this wingnut is using the standard lie, then he's including the future cost of healthcare for all auto workers.

I bet the wingnut can't post a link to a credible, no rightwing source

Lies? Really? Earlier in this thread I posted links to those numbers. iI you chose to ignore the proof, your problem. Facts are facts. And no matter how many times or how often you use the "liar liar pants on fire defense" it matters not. The facts are clear and widely available for all to see.
Oh here's your poke in the eye....Re: $73 an Hour

"UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as
cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports
that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December
2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the
average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example,
workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight
shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising
earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly
employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary
payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as
vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68
an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at
GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46
percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits
include[5]:

* Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
* Dental and vision benefits;
* Group life insurance;
* Disability benefits;
* Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
* Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at
retirement;
* Unemployment compensation; and
* Payroll taxes (employer's share).

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Vs-Toyota-Wages-And-Benefits.aspx
DETROIT (AP) --Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

The UAW has not been able to organize workers at a Toyota plant in this country; it does represent workers at one joint GM-Toyota plant in Fremont, Calif.
That just about shuts 'er down. We don't need union bosses to represent us when businesses recognize the necessity of increasing the market wage rate.

 

[sangha]

Oh please spare us the "woe is us" nonsense.
The UAW has had the US auto co's over a barrel for 60 years.
There never was a anything resembling a negotiation for a contract. It was a mugging.
Now the gravy train is at a permanent halt and you people are crying like little school girls.
Sorry, but no way is a factory worker worth ovr $70( wages and bennies included). Especially in light of the fact that non-union plants make better quality more reliable autos and the employee labor cost is about 60% of UAW.
100% paid medical. 100% paid pension. Double time and half for working a holiday...Please.
Look, you union people are absent of the real world where workers are paid based on merit, productivity, where the guy next to you who achieves a higher standard of performance gets a wage increase while the guy who "puts in his time" is left behind and is eventually replaced.
Unions create complacency and mediocrity.
It's over....7% and dropping. That's all!

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say.

Those #'s are lies. If this wingnut is using the standard lie, then he's including the future cost of healthcare for all auto workers.

I bet the wingnut can't post a link to a credible, no rightwing source

Lies? Really? Earlier in this thread I posted links to those numbers. iI you chose to ignore the proof, your problem. Facts are facts. And no matter how many times or how often you use the "liar liar pants on fire defense" it matters not. The facts are clear and widely available for all to see.
Oh here's your poke in the eye....Re: $73 an Hour

"UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as
cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports
that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December
2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the
average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example,
workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight
shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising
earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly
employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary
payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as
vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68
an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at
GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46
percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits
include[5]:

* Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
* Dental and vision benefits;
* Group life insurance;
* Disability benefits;
* Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
* Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at
retirement;
* Unemployment compensation; and
* Payroll taxes (employer's share).

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Vs-Toyota-Wages-And-Benefits.aspx
DETROIT (AP) --Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

The UAW has not been able to organize workers at a Toyota plant in this country; it does represent workers at one joint GM-Toyota plant in Fremont, Calif.
That just about shuts 'er down. We don't need union bosses to represent us when businesses recognize the necessity of increasing the market wage rate.

I predicted that the wingnut was including the health care costs of retirees, and he proves that I was right. It is a scam to include the costs of previous employees along with the costs of current employees

And, as I predicted, the wingnut couldn't link to a credible source

 

[thereisnospoon]

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say.

Those #'s are lies. If this wingnut is using the standard lie, then he's including the future cost of healthcare for all auto workers.

I bet the wingnut can't post a link to a credible, no rightwing source

Lies? Really? Earlier in this thread I posted links to those numbers. iI you chose to ignore the proof, your problem. Facts are facts. And no matter how many times or how often you use the "liar liar pants on fire defense" it matters not. The facts are clear and widely available for all to see.
Oh here's your poke in the eye....Re: $73 an Hour

"UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as
cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports
that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December
2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the
average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example,
workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight
shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising
earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly
employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary
payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as
vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68
an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at
GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46
percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits
include[5]:

* Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
* Dental and vision benefits;
* Group life insurance;
* Disability benefits;
* Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
* Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at
retirement;
* Unemployment compensation; and
* Payroll taxes (employer's share).

GM Vs. Toyota Wages And Benefits
DETROIT (AP) --Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

The UAW has not been able to organize workers at a Toyota plant in this country; it does represent workers at one joint GM-Toyota plant in Fremont, Calif.
That just about shuts 'er down. We don't need union bosses to represent us when businesses recognize the necessity of increasing the market wage rate.

I predicted that the wingnut was including the health care costs of retirees, and he proves that I was right. It is a scam to include the costs of previous employees along with the costs of current employees

And, as I predicted, the wingnut couldn't link to a credible source

dismiss them.

No response to the facts, huh? Can't dispute them so you
You have a credibility problem.
You predicted nothing. You simply said any factoid or statistic posted in opposition to your point of view is a lie.
That's arguing for the sake of argument.
At this point ,you are cut off. If you cannot contribute to the debate in a constructive manner perhaps you should go bake cookies.
You're all through here. You have no credible argument. You have posted no facts in opposition to the facts I have provided. Terefore, you are no longer worthy of debate on this issue.
Please do not waste everyone's time replying. I will not read nor respond to your inane ramblings. Buh bye.