How Germany could have won the second world war

[Chiara]

Some say Adolf Hitler's worst mistake was declaring war on USSR but I'm not so sure. I've read that some historicians say Stalin wanted to attack Germany and Hitler started to war to prevent Stalin's first strike
Anyways he was too narcissist (and maybe this is not a good thing if you are a commander in chief)

Europe wasn't big enough for TWO megalomaniacs.

This is a good point!

 

[whitehall]

Won? The best Germany could have hoped for in their most desperate fantasy in WW2 was a truce and maybe to keep annexed countries like Austria and Slovakia.

 

[Litwin]

Some say Adolf Hitler's worst mistake was declaring war on USSR but I'm not so sure. I've read that some historicians say Stalin wanted to attack Germany and Hitler started to war to prevent Stalin's first strike
Anyways he was too narcissist (and maybe this is not a good thing if you are a commander in chief)

Koba was a commie , they live for commie victory around the globe

Permanent revolution is a term within Marxist theory, coined by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels by at least 1850, but which has since become most closely associated with Leon Trotsky. The uses of the term by different theorists are not identical. Marx used it to describe the strategy of a revolutionary class to continue to pursue its class interests independently and without compromise, despite overtures for political alliances, and despite the political dominance of opposing sections of society.

Trotsky put forward his conception of "permanent revolution" as an explanation of how socialist revolutions could occur in societies that had not achieved advanced capitalism. Trotsky's theory also argues, first, that the bourgeoisie in late-developing capitalist countries are incapable of developing the productive forces in such a manner as to achieve the sort of advanced capitalism which will fully develop an industrial proletariat. Second, that the proletariat can and must, therefore, seize social, economic, and political power, leading an alliance with the peasantry.

 

[Pete7469]

As evil as hitler was, you knew if you were his enemy, and he told you in his stupid book he planned to wipe you out. When it comes to commies, you just disappear and people pretended you never existed. It may have made the world a better place if soviet russia was defeated. We all know the national socialist system would have imploded upon itself regardless, and the jews may have been relocated instead of liquidated in that case.

Of course I don't think we should have gotten into WW1 let alone the 2nd.

.

 

[Chiara]

Some say Adolf Hitler's worst mistake was declaring war on USSR but I'm not so sure. I've read that some historicians say Stalin wanted to attack Germany and Hitler started to war to prevent Stalin's first strike
Anyways he was too narcissist (and maybe this is not a good thing if you are a commander in chief)

Koba was a commie , they live for commie victory around the globe

Permanent revolution is a term within Marxist theory, coined by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels by at least 1850, but which has since become most closely associated with Leon Trotsky. The uses of the term by different theorists are not identical. Marx used it to describe the strategy of a revolutionary class to continue to pursue its class interests independently and without compromise, despite overtures for political alliances, and despite the political dominance of opposing sections of society.

Trotsky put forward his conception of "permanent revolution" as an explanation of how socialist revolutions could occur in societies that had not achieved advanced capitalism. Trotsky's theory also argues, first, that the bourgeoisie in late-developing capitalist countries are incapable of developing the productive forces in such a manner as to achieve the sort of advanced capitalism which will fully develop an industrial proletariat. Second, that the proletariat can and must, therefore, seize social, economic, and political power, leading an alliance with the peasantry.

Thanks Litwin
very useful post. I didn't know anything about the term "permanent revolution"

 

[jwoodie]

Both World Wars started with Great Britain declaring war against Germany, primarily for economic and political reasons. The Brits wanted to prevent Germany from challenging their Empire, and Churchill wanted to restore his credibility after Gallipoli. FDR was an Anglophile as well as Soviet sympathizer, which caused him to push for war with Germany. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was his godsend, and Hitler's declaration of war against the US made it all the easier to accomplish his objective.

Only after the useless invasion of Italy did FDR realize that Churchill was more interested in preserving British influence in the Mediterranean than in liberating France. After that, the development of Allied strategy was primarily a two-man show between a dying FDR and a rejuvenated Stalin.

 

[MoneyShaker]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

Germany should have declared war on Japan July 8 1941, instead of the US. THAT would have allowed them time to win the war in Europe.

 

[K9Buck]

Won? The best Germany could have hoped for in their most desperate fantasy in WW2 was a truce and maybe to keep annexed countries like Austria and Slovakia.

I think that's basically true. In my scenario, a German "win" meant being able to take and hold Leningrad in addition to much of Ukraine. The cost to Germany in terms of blood and treasure for their "win" would have still been enormous and probably not sustainable.

 

[Preacher]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

He should have wiped out the British at Dunkirk but you have to understand The Great One's mindset and you understand why he didn't do so. Communist Russia was the greater threat and to this day the fact that so many western leaders allied with a butcher like Stalin is appalling and disgusting. Japan should have held talks with Germany since they were an ally BEFORE bombing Pearl Harbor therefore maybe the US never enters the war or at least not when it did and Germany could have eradicated communism forever.

 

[Preacher]

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

Hitler offered peace terms 8 times to England. Churchill refused to even entertain the idea.

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

At that time parts of the US operated an apartheid scheme that Hitler would have drooled over. So he might have picked up some support for a deal.

The Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, but that's probably another thread.

Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

https://www.quora.com/Were-there-black-people-in-German-WW2-forces

Over 200k Jews fought for Hitler and the German army

 

[Chiara]

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

Hitler offered peace terms 8 times to England. Churchill refused to even entertain the idea.

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

At that time parts of the US operated an apartheid scheme that Hitler would have drooled over. So he might have picked up some support for a deal.

The Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, but that's probably another thread.

Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

https://www.quora.com/Were-there-black-people-in-German-WW2-forces

Over 200k Jews fought for Hitler and the German army

I'm really surprised to know some Jews fought for Germans in WWII!
I knew about "kapo" but I couldn't ever imagine a Jew in the Wehrmacht!

 

[Wyatt earp]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

also if they would of taken the middle east oil.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

Hitler offered peace terms 8 times to England. Churchill refused to even entertain the idea.

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

At that time parts of the US operated an apartheid scheme that Hitler would have drooled over. So he might have picked up some support for a deal.

The Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, but that's probably another thread.

Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party, BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

https://www.quora.com/Were-there-black-people-in-German-WW2-forces

Over 200k Jews fought for Hitler and the German army

I'm really surprised to know some Jews fought for Germans in WWII!
I knew about "kapo" but I couldn't ever imagine a Jew in the Wehrmacht!

Because there weren't any. Jews from other countries, like Finland, fought alongside Nazis.

 

[rightwinger]

Mostly, I agree

Germany could have had total victory on one front but not both.

 

[rightwinger]

BS. FDR loved his Uncle Joe.

Or he realized that the USSR was the country in a position to really do something about it.

Stalin BEGGED the West to open a second front, which really wasn't done until the middle of 1944. Up until that point, most of the fighting was done between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht.

Means nothing Joe, as it relates to my post. You have a propensity to post irrelevant shit.

FDR loved Uncle Joe. Communism did not scare FDR. He loved it so much that he filled his administration with Commies.

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

 

[gipper]

BS. FDR loved his Uncle Joe.

Or he realized that the USSR was the country in a position to really do something about it.

Stalin BEGGED the West to open a second front, which really wasn't done until the middle of 1944. Up until that point, most of the fighting was done between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht.

Means nothing Joe, as it relates to my post. You have a propensity to post irrelevant shit.

FDR loved Uncle Joe. Communism did not scare FDR. He loved it so much that he filled his administration with Commies.

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

Yes he was an imperialist, which you ignorantly admire.

FDR loved Stalin so much that he agreed to imprison half of Europe behind the Iron Curtain. Leading to decades of Cold War, which we were very lucky not to have destroyed the world.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yes he was an imperialist

Really? Okay, remind us which sovereign states he annexed into the United States. Take your time.

 

[rightwinger]

BS. FDR loved his Uncle Joe.

Or he realized that the USSR was the country in a position to really do something about it.

Stalin BEGGED the West to open a second front, which really wasn't done until the middle of 1944. Up until that point, most of the fighting was done between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht.

Means nothing Joe, as it relates to my post. You have a propensity to post irrelevant shit.

FDR loved Uncle Joe. Communism did not scare FDR. He loved it so much that he filled his administration with Commies.

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

Yes he was an imperialist, which you ignorantly admire.

FDR loved Stalin so much that he agreed to imprison half of Europe behind the Iron Curtain. Leading to decades of Cold War, which we were very lucky not to have destroyed the world.

FDR had no choice on who got Eastern Europe
It was occupied by the Red Army and Stalin was not about to give it up. He had already given millions of lives for that territory

Forcing him out would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives

 

[gipper]

Yes he was an imperialist

Really? Okay, remind us which sovereign states he annexed into the United States. Take your time.

Oh brother. I was using the idiot posters words against him. He claimed FDR was happy to have conquered half of Europe, for the US.

 

[Pilot1]

Hitler started the war before the military was ready, and properly supplied. Then he mistakenly sided with the Japanese, and declared war on the U.S. Then he attacked Russia! Absolutely moronic.