How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?

[daws101]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

I'm more amazed by people who don't get this. You think life is so irrelevant, so unimportant, so worthless, that when someone intentionally takes the life of an innocent person, you think they should keep their own life... because what they did wasn't that big of a deal.

That's your view? And you are shocked that other beg to differ with you....

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made..

That's right. "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - No problem" - Stalin

Atheism at it's finest. Life has no meaning, no purpose, no value. Wipe out 50 million people, and call yourself leader of the workers paradise!

yep can't read ...."
life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made"
no where in that simple statement of fact did I infer intentionally or otherwise that death was the solution to all problems ..
that's you just wishing I did. another kind of justification
atheism fuck yeah! beats the shit out of myth any day..

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?"

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution protects a woman's right to make personal, private choices absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution authorizes the states to impose the death penalty as punishment when appropriate.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with opposing abortion and supporting the death penalty.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with supporting a woman's right to privacy and opposing the death penalty.

 

[ralfy]

Support for capital punishment usually takes place when things begin to fall apart.

 

[daws101]

Support for capital punishment usually takes place when things begin to fall apart.

then I guess this country was fucked before it started....

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

But it is religious to us Catholics. We choose life over death because in the New Covenant, mercy wins over justice. Our just punishment for sin is stayed because of the blood of Christ, the perfect propitiation for sinners.

Where your argument fails is in its wrongful attempt to assign immorality to capital punishment. You ask "What gives us the right?" and the quick, and devastatingly accurate response is God gives us that right. God instituted the death penalty as the backbone of human criminal justice in his covenant with Noah before mankind was once again spawned over the face of the earth and reinforced it with Moses when he gave the law on Mt. Sinai. This is what I learned, that when people who oppose capital punishment impugn those who support it as immoral, it repels them. And the reason it repels them is simple, it's not true. Capital punishment as a response to murder is not and is never wrong, and when we claim it is, we're written off as kooks.

The issue of capital punishment is not one of good vs evil, but rather one of a choice between justice, which is never wrong, and mercy, which is the better way. The Catholic Church offers a better alternative to execution, allowing somebody a lifetime to consider their actions and come to a state of repentance. Many murderers do arrive at this epiphany and are able to seek forgiveness. This is the better way.

This is true to a Catholic. In a secular society no gods are recognized organizing part of the law or giving society rights. Citizens create the laws they live under which give them rights and obligations.

The founding philosophy of this country categorically includes a Creator from whom we draw our rights. When you attempt to exclude God in your arguments, you lose the very basis by which you can assert objective truths against untruths, for if morality is absolute, then there must be an absolute author of morality, one who sets right and wrong. If there are no absolutes, then your argument against capital punishment in no way holds sway to others who are for it, or even Nazis who want to round up certain groups of people and put them in death camps. We don't know who's right or wrong unless we have an intransigent standard of morality.

 

[Vigilante]

Easy answer, one KILLS innocent beings, the other KILLS KILLERS!

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

"How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?"

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution protects a woman's right to make personal, private choices absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution authorizes the states to impose the death penalty as punishment when appropriate.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with opposing abortion and supporting the death penalty.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with supporting a woman's right to privacy and opposing the death penalty.

^^^^ Pedro, pay attention. This is the convoluted logic you get when you remove a just God as a standard for righteousness and a contrast against which evil can be discerned. Moral pandemonium reigns in a world that rejects the knowledge of God and appoints themselves the final arbiters of right and wrong.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?"

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution protects a woman's right to make personal, private choices absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution authorizes the states to impose the death penalty as punishment when appropriate.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with opposing abortion and supporting the death penalty.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with supporting a woman's right to privacy and opposing the death penalty.

^^^^ Pedro, pay attention. This is the convoluted logic you get when you remove a just God as a standard for righteousness and a contrast against which evil can be discerned. Moral pandemonium reigns in a world that rejects the knowledge of God and appoints themselves the final arbiters of right and wrong.

This is typical of the ignorance and arrogance common to most theists who fail to understand the fact that religion and 'god' are subjective and personal, where no religion or anything else created by man has a 'monopoly' on morality.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

"How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?"

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution protects a woman's right to make personal, private choices absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Everyone is 'pro-life,' including those who correctly understand that the Constitution authorizes the states to impose the death penalty as punishment when appropriate.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with opposing abortion and supporting the death penalty.

There is nothing 'inconsistent' with supporting a woman's right to privacy and opposing the death penalty.

^^^^ Pedro, pay attention. This is the convoluted logic you get when you remove a just God as a standard for righteousness and a contrast against which evil can be discerned. Moral pandemonium reigns in a world that rejects the knowledge of God and appoints themselves the final arbiters of right and wrong.

This is typical of the ignorance and arrogance common to most theists who fail to understand the fact that religion and 'god' are subjective and personal, where no religion or anything else created by man has a 'monopoly' on morality.

The founding philosophy of this country confounds your claim that religion is subjective and personal, having nothing to do with our system of government. All you have is your opinion, which is at variance with what was written in our founding documents.

 

[Andylusion]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

I'm more amazed by people who don't get this. You think life is so irrelevant, so unimportant, so worthless, that when someone intentionally takes the life of an innocent person, you think they should keep their own life... because what they did wasn't that big of a deal.

That's your view? And you are shocked that other beg to differ with you....

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made..

That's right. "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - No problem" - Stalin

Atheism at it's finest. Life has no meaning, no purpose, no value. Wipe out 50 million people, and call yourself leader of the workers paradise!

yep can't read ...."
life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made"
no where in that simple statement of fact did I infer intentionally or otherwise that death was the solution to all problems ..
that's you just wishing I did. another kind of justification
atheism fuck yeah! beats the shit out of myth any day..

...right.... but a murderer has violated even the 'surviving and reproducing' value, which means obviously they have no real value either. And you promote this by not requiring anything from the murderer, indicating they have no value to you, by your own admission.

Am I wrong? Because that's how I read it. Perhaps that is not what you meant, but that's how it came across to me.

If you require nothing from someone who violated the only things of value "surviving and reproducing"... then apparently they have no value either.

Therefore.... might as well slaughter millions. Who cares?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

I'm more amazed by people who don't get this. You think life is so irrelevant, so unimportant, so worthless, that when someone intentionally takes the life of an innocent person, you think they should keep their own life... because what they did wasn't that big of a deal.

That's your view? And you are shocked that other beg to differ with you....

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made..

That's right. "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - No problem" - Stalin

Atheism at it's finest. Life has no meaning, no purpose, no value. Wipe out 50 million people, and call yourself leader of the workers paradise!

More ignorance and arrogance from a theist.

Those free from faith invest in life great meaning, purpose, and value, which is why they defend the rights of individuals to pursue self-determination absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Life is more than mere existence, as theists would have us believe, it's also the freedom and liberty to live one's life as he so desires, in accordance with his own good conscience, and to come to one's own terms with his place in the universe and the meaning of his existence without being compelled to conform to the dictates of errant religious doctrine and dogma.

 

[Vigilante]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

I'm more amazed by people who don't get this. You think life is so irrelevant, so unimportant, so worthless, that when someone intentionally takes the life of an innocent person, you think they should keep their own life... because what they did wasn't that big of a deal.

That's your view? And you are shocked that other beg to differ with you....

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made..

That's right. "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - No problem" - Stalin

Atheism at it's finest. Life has no meaning, no purpose, no value. Wipe out 50 million people, and call yourself leader of the workers paradise!

More ignorance and arrogance from a theist.

Those free from faith invest in life great meaning, purpose, and value, which is why they defend the rights of individuals to pursue self-determination absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Life is more than mere existence, as theists would have us believe, it's also the freedom and liberty to live one's life as he so desires, in accordance with his own good conscience, and to come to one's own terms with his place in the universe and the meaning of his existence without being compelled to conform to the dictates of errant religious doctrine and dogma.

Sounds like you were a "Moonie"! ..."Hare Krishna" ......

 

[Contumacious]

A child in the womb is as innocent as it gets.

A murderer, on the other hand...

Typically, the reason trials are held is to determine whether a defendant is a murderer.


Trials in theocratic states like Texas are characterized by Prosecutors who have a right to lie like rugs. Defendants who have a right to a warm body with a law degree. Attorneys who may sleep during Capital murder trials. And of course, an essential part of the equation is Texas Criminal Court, where the "justices" define ineffective assistance of counsel" as those rare occasions where attorneys are - somehow - able to get their clients acquitted.


.

 

[Iceweasel]

A child could understand, and they do. Ask any Sunday school kid.

you are such fucking idiots.........I don't have a problem with killing the op does....but you dumb fucks seem to need to qualify it to me.
you assholes are singing to the choir....

Qualify it to you? What does that mean? Justify? No one needs to justify anything to you but I answered your question to me honestly.

bullshit! justifying, rationalizing is all you've been doing ....to the wrong poster...lol!

I responded to your simple minded post #72 that said:
"false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.
hey shit head I'm for capital punishment ..the ignorance is all on you
as usual."

The Bible doesn't say that. You clearly didn't understand the scriptures you posted a little earlier and now you're throwing a tantrum.

false! I'm not the one who feels the need to justify...
I fairly certain I understand scripture better than you do on your best day...

You proved otherwise. Neither the OT or NT condemns all killing, just murder. That was a fail on biblical proportions.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

sure is ....
Killing

You fail to understand that you've proven my point.
Killing the innocent is murder. Killing the guilty is not.
I thank you for being honest with your ignorance.

false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.
hey shit head I'm for capital punishment ..the ignorance is all on you
as usual.

Ah, cherry-picking. The first refuge of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he the man” (Genesis 9:6).

So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. (Numbers 35:33)

He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. (Exodus 21:12-14)

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. (Exodus 21:22-23)

As for those who want to pretend that the New Testament negates the Old, we have this:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. (Romans 13:1-4)

If I am an offender, or have committed anything worthy of death, I do not object to dying. (Acts 25:11)

So let's do away with the argument that Christianity requires pacifism. Feel free to have any opinion you like about the value and sanctity of all human life. But please don't try to tell us it's because God demands that we allow murderers and other criminals to live.

 

[M14 Shooter]

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.

Stupidest comment any human ever made.

No... -That- comment is quoted in my signature.

 

[Iceweasel]

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.

Stupidest comment any human ever made.

No... -That- comment is quoted in my signature.

Luddly is a strong contender, no doubt. I blocked her because it was an utter waste of time to read anything she says.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A child could understand, and they do. Ask any Sunday school kid.

you are such fucking idiots.........I don't have a problem with killing the op does....but you dumb fucks seem to need to qualify it to me.
you assholes are singing to the choir....

Qualify it to you? What does that mean? Justify? No one needs to justify anything to you but I answered your question to me honestly.

bullshit! justifying, rationalizing is all you've been doing ....to the wrong poster...lol!

I responded to your simple minded post #72 that said:
"false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.
hey shit head I'm for capital punishment ..the ignorance is all on you
as usual."

The Bible doesn't say that. You clearly didn't understand the scriptures you posted a little earlier and now you're throwing a tantrum.

false! I'm not the one who feels the need to justify...
I fairly certain I understand scripture better than you do on your best day...

People are certain of a lot of things that simply aren't true.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes well if you don't understand the problem with viewing INNOCENT life as *worthless* then you are, yourself, worthless in the same way that the death row inmates are.

I'm not entirely sure how you managed to twist "I'm pro-life" into "I believe innocent life is worthless". Please clarify?

Your op implicates there's a conflict between being anti-abortion on demand, and pro-death penalty.

My point is that there's no conflict because the two are not the same. Pro-life believe that life is precious (and I personally am anti-death penalty) but I do not view the taking of life as a punishment for murder (or in the course of self defense) as the same thing as choosing to snuff out an innocent life. In other words, pro-lifers actually believe that the one and only good reason for killing is in defense of innocent life, or as punishment for taking it.

There is no conflict.

People who are anti-death penalty, and pro-abortion, like to take the pro-lifers to task over the fact that many of us have no problem with the death penalty. It is because we are pro-life that we believe that there is one reason that justifies the taking of another life..and that is when there is an imminent threat to or the life of an innocent has been taken.

Innocents and criminals are not the same thing. An innocent deserves no violence.

 

[daws101]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

I'm more amazed by people who don't get this. You think life is so irrelevant, so unimportant, so worthless, that when someone intentionally takes the life of an innocent person, you think they should keep their own life... because what they did wasn't that big of a deal.

That's your view? And you are shocked that other beg to differ with you....

life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made..

That's right. "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - No problem" - Stalin

Atheism at it's finest. Life has no meaning, no purpose, no value. Wipe out 50 million people, and call yourself leader of the workers paradise!

yep can't read ...."
life is just life it has no intrinsic meaning other than surviving and reproducing.
all the qualities you mentioned are man made"
no where in that simple statement of fact did I infer intentionally or otherwise that death was the solution to all problems ..
that's you just wishing I did. another kind of justification
atheism fuck yeah! beats the shit out of myth any day..

...right.... but a murderer has violated even the 'surviving and reproducing' value, which means obviously they have no real value either. And you promote this by not requiring anything from the murderer, indicating they have no value to you, by your own admission.

Am I wrong? Because that's how I read it. Perhaps that is not what you meant, but that's how it came across to me.

If you require nothing from someone who violated the only things of value "surviving and reproducing"... then apparently they have no value either.

Therefore.... might as well slaughter millions. Who cares?

another classic mischaracterization based on jack shit...