How did you reach your conclusion

[ABikerSailor]

I have heard religion described as a language that helps us understand the world and our place in it. Science is another such language. Who is to say which is true and which is not? It is all in how you perceive things.

I will admit though that I am quite skeptical of literal interpretations of religion as "truth" or the idea that any book is the "word of god"....whichever god that might be.

You know......there is a website called the Universal Torah Network. On there is a couple of series of programs. The ones that I would recommend are the ones on the B'Neih Noach. Not only do they discuss theology in that short series (6 programs I think), but they also show (in the Torah), where DNA strands are spoken about.

We didn't learn about them until recently.

Additionally, Israel is one place where science and theology are pretty much researched about equally. Why else do you think that some of the best ideas come from there? Solar and wind, exceedingly precise weapons, as well as dangerous ones (the Merkvah 4 comes to mind).

Besides...........on the science front, one of the greatest thinkers of all time, Mr. Albert Einstein stated it very plainly when he stated "Theology without science is crippled, and science without theology is blind."

In other words, both must be united.

If not? Well......then we can start talking about how people like Copernicus and Galileo were persecuted for their heresy of stating that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Religion didn't agree, and they almost executed them.

Da Vinci was another one of them. He would take corpses and dissect them in order to learn more about the human body. Matter of fact, that research was considered to be heretical, if not downright blasphemous and evil in accordance with the beliefs of the day.

Now? If someone dies under unusual circumstances, we automatically dissect the body to find out why they died. Matter of fact, it's kinda required by law.

Incidentally, Da Vinci's drawings were THE BEST IN THE WORLD UNTIL THE MID 1990'S, when it came to anatomy drawings of people. Gray's Anatomy didn't catch up to a man who lived over 500 years ago until around 1997 or 1998.

And, that is only with the help of all modern equipment.

No, those that say you need to ignore theology in pursuit of science are half wrong. You need to pay attention to it, otherwise the science can go wrong. Human cloning and stem cell research, as well as abortion are hot issues concerning this.

And.....those that say you need to ignore science in pursuit of theology? Well.......again........half wrong. Not only can I point to the middle ages, but I can also point to it now in the form of the Amish, and to quite a great extent, the Islamic beliefs as well.

As far as is there an actual God? I like to believe so, as I've seen too much evidence of Him all over the place. Most notably in places like the History Channel and Science Channel, as well as Nat Geo, because when you're looking at how the world works, you can't help but believe that there is something keeping everything working just so, and it's a bit more than "just the laws of physics", because it's also dependent on human interaction.

Do I believe Yeshua (Jesus to Christians) existed? Yes. I believe that as well. Why? Well, a couple of years ago, in the news, there was a prison in the Middle East that was expanding. During the excavation for the foundation, they found a church from the time of around 100 years after Christ's crucifixion. Inside that church, there was a coin, with the name AND LIKENESS of Christ on it.

During that time, the countries of the day didn't put just anyone on their money. You had to be someone who was exceedingly famous, as well as did something notable, just like Lincoln, Jefferson, and all the others are on our money today.

Nope.......I believe in both, and I believe in others as well.

 

[Coyote]

Nice post BikerSailor....

Many seem to think that spirituality and science can not co-exist but I see many ways in which they can. Science uncovers and helps us understand the incredible nature of the world around us, and religion gives it meaning. I think the issues arise though, when a fundamentalist mindset encounters science and tries to distort it to fit it's own mythology in a literal fashion. There is a show I like to listen to on NPR called speaking of faith and they did a segment once on science and religion - was very good.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If you've got cable, and want a really interesting program to watch concerning the Bible, check out a religious channel called "God's Learning Channel", and look for a program called "Hidden in the Hebrew" with Uri Harel.

What he does is goes verse by verse through the OT, reads the Hebrew, then gives you a direct from Hebrew to English translation of the verse, as well as the nuances of what it actually means.

Show has done wonders for me, because now I can see where certain things in Christianity are WAY wrong.

And......to be fair.........some places where Christianity has it absolutely right.

 

[Coyote]

If you've got cable, and want a really interesting program to watch concerning the Bible, check out a religious channel called "God's Learning Channel", and look for a program called "Hidden in the Hebrew" with Uri Harel.

What he does is goes verse by verse through the OT, reads the Hebrew, then gives you a direct from Hebrew to English translation of the verse, as well as the nuances of what it actually means.

Show has done wonders for me, because now I can see where certain things in Christianity are WAY wrong.

And......to be fair.........some places where Christianity has it absolutely right.

Don't have cable unfortunately

Both Testements (and for that matter, the Koran) are very interesting from a historical aspect as many of the stories do contain the seeds of real events. What's especially interesting is common threads found through many religious stories - for example destruction (floods, fires, darkness) and resurrection and messiahs and you can find those common themes in Greek/Roman/Hebrew/Christian mythologies (which is not so surprising because they cover overlapping cultures and geography) but in stories from much further afield such as the Hopi and other South Western tribal stories which sound eerily familiar

Hopi legend tells that the current earth is the Fourth World to be inhabited by Tawa's creations. The story essentially states that in each previous world, the people, though originally happy, became disobedient and lived contrary to Tawa's plan; they engaged in sexual promiscuity, fought one another and would not live in harmony. Thus, the most obedient were led (usually by Spider Woman) to the next higher world, with physical changes occurring both in the people in the course of their journey, and in the environment of the next world. In some stories, these former worlds were then destroyed along with their wicked inhabitants, whereas in others the good people were simply led away from the chaos which had been created by their actions.

 

[amrchaos]

I have heard religion described as a language that helps us understand the world and our place in it. Science is another such language. Who is to say which is true and which is not? It is all in how you perceive things.

I will admit though that I am quite skeptical of literal interpretations of religion as "truth" or the idea that any book is the "word of god"....whichever god that might be.

Actually, I think the real purpose of religion is to form a society. The whole Theological cosmology was made up to give a simplified justification for people to determine what is right and wrong without having to explain what happens if man becomes too desperate, is shunned unnecessarily from a group, or reaised in total ignorance.

If we actually went into the explainations of the laws--you would get a book about the half size of the bible with even less people reading it. So the cosmology was added as part fun and games and part literary tool to teach people basic morality.

Now Science requires skepticism. There is basically no applicable way to change it into a religion unless you want to behold the law of gravity as a moral guide. I can see it now

Weight is Gravity times mass. The theology of What goes up must comes down dual dynamicism. Ok--these last couple of lines where not as funny as I thought they were when I thought them up!!

 

[Coyote]

I have heard religion described as a language that helps us understand the world and our place in it. Science is another such language. Who is to say which is true and which is not? It is all in how you perceive things.

I will admit though that I am quite skeptical of literal interpretations of religion as "truth" or the idea that any book is the "word of god"....whichever god that might be.

Actually, I think the real purpose of religion is to form a society. The whole Theological cosmology was made up to give a simplified justification for people to determine what is right and wrong without having to explain what happens if man becomes too desperate, is shunned unnecessarily from a group, or reaised in total ignorance.

If we actually went into the explainations of the laws--you would get a book about the half size of the bible with even less people reading it. So the cosmology was added as part fun and games and part literary tool to teach people basic morality.

Now Science requires skepticism. There is basically no applicable way to change it into a religion unless you want to behold the law of gravity as a moral guide. I can see it now

Weight is Gravity times mass. The theology of What goes up must comes down dual dynamicism. Ok--these last couple of lines where not as funny as I thought they were when I thought them up!!

That makes a lot of sense - reminds me of Aesops Fables, or the Mystery Plays and the purpose of church's stained glass windows in Medievil Christianity - to teach the mostly illiterate people morals through stories often both humorous and serious but discouraging serious questioning.

 

[ABikerSailor]

OF COURSE they would discourage questioning.

Cuts down on the costs of executing the heretics!

 

[Truthspeaker]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

I came to my conclusion by testing the formula spoken of by James in chapter 1 verse 5 and 6.James 1


And also in Moroni chapter 10 verse 3-5.Moroni 10

I think it will work for anyone who is willing to test it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

I came to my conclusion by testing the formula spoken of by James in chapter 1 verse 5 and 6.James 1


And also in Moroni chapter 10 verse 3-5.Moroni 10

Also in Doctrine & Covenants Section 9 verse 8. Word Search: study it out in your mind

I think it will work for anyone who is willing to test it.

 

[Coyote]

OF COURSE they would discourage questioning.

Cuts down on the costs of executing the heretics!

Well come on, where is your Christmas cheer? There's nothing like warm heretic burning at the stake to give you the warm fuzzies. You can even toast marshmallows and make it a family lesson for the kids

 

[amrchaos]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

I came to my conclusion by testing the formula spoken of by James in chapter 1 verse 5 and 6.James 1


And also in Moroni chapter 10 verse 3-5.Moroni 10

I think it will work for anyone who is willing to test it.

But Truthspeaker, this requires taking up a faith first.

I do not know of a better analogy here, So I guess I will use this one.

Is not what you have done equivalent to putting the Cart before the Ass?

I mean, more literally, do you not want to check the validity of a point of view before following that point of view?
(Well, I guess that did not come out right since one can point to a number of religions and show that the people who practice them live proper and fulfilling lives. From here one can easily say "Hey these religions are valid-these people are happy and live a life of great note due to their adherence to said religious belief."

When In truth, no pun intended Mr Truthspeaker, I am referring to the cosmological view of said religions. In short, I can see the common sense behind "Though Shall obey thou mother and Father" but what send me over the edge is the claim that commandment came from a Talking Bush.

A BURNING talking Bush--do you understand where I am coming from, Mr. Truthspeaker?

 

[ABikerSailor]

OF COURSE they would discourage questioning.

Cuts down on the costs of executing the heretics!

Well come on, where is your Christmas cheer? There's nothing like warm heretic burning at the stake to give you the warm fuzzies. You can even toast marshmallows and make it a family lesson for the kids

Well........if we weren't in the middle of a recession, I might feel different. Have you seen the price of a good log for burning heretics? And then, when you throw in the cost of a chain to keep 'em on the log, the gas........well........seems like it's three times more expensive these days than what it was only 10 year ago!

Shit.........when I was a kid, burning a heretic was cheap! You could do it for the cost of a Moon Pie and an RC Cola.

And, if you're gonna burn a wild one, well...........them's kinda hard to find here in the Amarillo area, as it's in the center of the Bible Belt.

You can find 'em, but it's difficult. And the ones that are left are smart and fierce!

 

[Truthspeaker]

But Truthspeaker, this requires taking up a faith first.

that's right, it does. I took up the faith of "Mormonism". The OP asked us how we came to the conclusions we came to. I stated how.

Is not what you have done equivalent to putting the Cart before the Ass?

No it is not equivalent to said analogy.
1. First it starts with a DESIRE to believe. This is the first thing many people don't understand.
2. Investigation of doctrine/claims.
(Nobody wants to be bamboozled, or hoowinked. I don't believe anyone should subscribe to a religion without a thorough examination of ALL it's precepts. Including rumored precepts. All the while asking any questions you feel you need to know.)
3. Weigh the logic and feelings associated with the doctrine/claims.
4. Pray and ask God if it is true. The answer WILL come.

I mean, more literally, do you not want to check the validity of a point of view before following that point of view?

All part of the investigation process.

(Well, I guess that did not come out right since one can point to a number of religions and show that the people who practice them live proper and fulfilling lives.

That is only a blessing and not the true test of a religion.

From here one can easily say "Hey these religions are valid-these people are happy and live a life of great note due to their adherence to said religious belief."

These results are only blessings given as the result of following certain true principles. But following true principles is not a guarantee of wealth or secular possesions.

When In truth, no pun intended Mr Truthspeaker, I am referring to the cosmological view of said religions. In short, I can see the common sense behind "Though Shall obey thou mother and Father" but what send me over the edge is the claim that commandment came from a Talking Bush.

Moses was talking with God face to face. the great I am came from behind the bush and eventually revealed his whole person. It's still a fantastic claim. but that doesn't mean it didn't happen just because it sounds unrealistic. As has been said before, Truth is often stranger than fiction.
That's why prayer is so important. If you can tune into God directly then you don't have to worry about the philosophies of men mingled with scripture which can always "explain" everything away. But if you spoke with God directly, it wouldn't matter what someone elses flowery scientific jargon says to you.

A BURNING talking Bush--do you understand where I am coming from, Mr. Truthspeaker

I do understand. Faith is not easy. Faith is putting yourself out there, an action more than a belief. Putting your money where your mouth is. Being willing to take what is perceived to be a risk and losing all fear of failure. The best example I could think of?

Indiana Jones, when he took that literal step of faith into what appeared to be an impossible to cross distance. There was NO VISIBLE EVIDENCE of any bridge that would stop his falling to his death. But he lost his fear of failure and found solid ground under his foot. Enjoy.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-c8_OFwZoY[/ame]

 

[eagleseven]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

Reason.

Primarily, analysis of the world's religions.

 

[pladecalvo]

Inside that church, there was a coin, with the name AND LIKENESS of Christ on it.

Would you supply a link for that please?

 

[Godboy]

I have seen no evidence that God exists.

sure you have...you just choose to not accept that as evidence of god....

If there was true evidence, it wouldnt be debatable. If i see a cat cross the road, its not up to me whether or not to accept it, because i just saw what happened and its undeniable. Save your flowery words for religious freaks. That crap doesnt work on logical clear headed individuals.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Logic and faith. Prayer and meditation. Reinforced by others experiences as told to me through their own words. Historical records and facts help also.

But in the end it is personal faith.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The question could be:

How did you come to the conclusion that every other religion but yours is wrong?

Personally I do not believe in an all powerful supreme being but I do not judge others' choices in the matter of religion as right or wrong.

The reasons I do not believe in god are many but mainly based in anthropology and psychology. Given our history, it is easy to see why people need to believe in a god.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The question could be:

How did you come to the conclusion that every other religion but yours is wrong?

Personally I do not believe in an all powerful supreme being but I do not judge others' choices in the matter of religion as right or wrong.

The reasons I do not believe in god are many but mainly based in anthropology and psychology. Given our history, it is easy to see why people need to believe in a god.

One does not have to believe every other religion is wrong in order to believe in their own. False premise.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The question could be:

How did you come to the conclusion that every other religion but yours is wrong?

Personally I do not believe in an all powerful supreme being but I do not judge others' choices in the matter of religion as right or wrong.

The reasons I do not believe in god are many but mainly based in anthropology and psychology. Given our history, it is easy to see why people need to believe in a god.

One does not have to believe every other religion is wrong in order to believe in their own. False premise.

Not necessarily

When one chooses one religion (or chooses anything for that matter) over all others, that choice defines one thing as right, at least to that particular person, and the others as wrong, or at lease not as right as his choice.

The act of choosing defines the validity of one over all others that were not chosen.

I am using the word wrong in this sense not as a judgment but more to describe a personal choice. One chooses something because it is "right" for him. Therefore, all the things he didn't choose can be defined as "wrong" for him.