How Christianity saved civilization

[Gungnir]

oooook, buddy.. whatever you say.

again, read the thread. The posted article is just as fucking stupid as you are for making such a pompous, ignorant fucking statement.

Look at the first freaking post, the opening post. I have boldened and underlined what the thread is about.

From wikipedia:

How The Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe is a non-fiction historical book written by Thomas Cahill.

Cahill argues a case for the Irish people's critical role in preserving Western Civilization from utter destruction by the Germanic tribes (Visigoths, Huns, Franks, Angles, Saxons, Ostrogoths, etc.). The book retells the story from the collapse of the Roman Empire and the pivotal role played by members of the clergy at the time. A particular focus is placed upon Saint Patrick and retells his early struggles through slavery; basically retelling portions of The Confession of Saint Patrick. Early parts of the book examine Ireland before Patrick and the role of Saint Augustine of Hippo. Particular focus is placed upon Saint Columba and the monks he trained and the monasteries he set up in the Hiberno-Scottish mission. In a sense, these holy men salvaged everything possible from the destruction of the Roman Empire.

How the Irish Saved Civilization was first published in March 1995 and appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List for almost two years.

Since the Irish that saved civilization were Christian, I took license with my thread title. But it's still perfectly accurate.

This thread deals exclusively with Western Civlization.
Here again is the link to which the OP refers

Western Civilization, is not Mayan Civilization, nor is it Chinese Civlization, nor Hindu Civilization, nor even Ethiopian Civilization. They are seperate and distinct things that have nought to do with Irish Christians saving them. This is just Western Civilization.

Im pointing out the clear historic pattern of YOUR side having to swallow its pride and start rationalizing MY side very few hundred years after the growing pains of reason coming to dominate myths.

What is my side and what is your side?

Your side seems to be the inability to read and talking nonsense that is tangential to the conversation. For instance; your tangent about non-Western Civilization that you started in Post #10 because of your inability to read. A simple convention when talking about one civilization (especially the one you are a part of and the one that currently DOMINATES the world) is to drop the specifier and refer to it as "Civilization".

And, Im not dividing the nomenclature according to how you want to frame the issue; I said Evolution and thats the word your progeny will comprehend beyond YOUR faith based initiative.

You are out of your apeshit mind.
Macroevolution is a simplification of the evolutionary processes (microevolution) where one species suddenly (magically) becoming another. Macroevolution is a common tactic used by Creationist (a strawman) to deny the real issue. If you are impuning that I think of evolution in terms of magic transformations I am greatly offended.

You have accused me of a nefarious faith based (implied Christian Religion) agenda to hold against scientific observation of our world and nature in substitute for a magical world view. Show the proof for your accusation or retract it! I have expressed support for the idea that the Church has preserved Western Civilization until the Renaissance. Clearly I place my affection to that transformitive era.

YOU find yourself having to accept evolution deapite your dogmatic ancestors refusing to do so.

You accuse me of things which you have no evidence for. If you can understand this concept; we do not work corruption of blood.

MUCH LIKE how YOUR kids' kids will do the same for principals that you don't agree with.

Humans are Humans, I can only do the best I can to ensure that my genes and ideas carry forth into untold generations.

I KNOW. and just THINK what might have been implied had those pesky fucking Asians hadn't developed their own written language!

Attend;

Why would I care about a different civilization when the thread topic is on Western Europe?

well, now I know who to run to if I have any questions about an alternate universe...

Thy master.

 

[manifold]

Rep for Gungnir

 

[Shogun]

Since the Irish that saved civilization were Christian, I took license with my thread title. But it's still perfectly accurate.



Hey, blather on about clarification if you need to, buddy. Looking for that one tasty flea in mani's pelt won't make the thread title AND Mani's own words any less general about "CIVILIZATION".

It's fucking hilarious that you need to justify a clarification THIS SIDE of the very nomenclature that makes your position such a farce. But, hey, if Mani is here to cheer lead then you MUST be on to something!

I would suggest you be a bit clearer when making ridiculous fucking claims about the importance of your particular faith the next time the need arises to make an ass of yourself.


Your side seems to be the inability to read and talking nonsense that is tangential to the conversation. For instance; your tangent about non-Western Civilization that you started in Post #10 because of your inability to read. A simple convention when talking about one civilization (especially the one you are a part of and the one that currently DOMINATES the world) is to drop the specifier and refer to it as "Civilization".


DOMINATES the fucking world, eh? HA! Tell that to China, sucker. You know, that very same example I bitchslapped you with earlier in this thread. If YOU want to claim that christians saved CIVILIZATION, well, then you'd be a fucking retarded crackhead. IF you want to claim that it helped MOLD WESTERN civ then you'd have a point. Not that christianity SAVED western civ at all. one can make the exact same argument about the GREEK PANTHEON SAVING western civ too. Whoopteefuckingdo. Profound shit, right?



You are out of your apeshit mind.
Macroevolution is a simplification of the evolutionary processes (microevolution) where one species suddenly (magically) becoming another. Macroevolution is a common tactic used by Creationist (a strawman) to deny the real issue. If you are impuning that I think of evolution in terms of magic transformations I am greatly offended.

You have accused me of a nefarious faith based (implied Christian Religion) agenda to hold against scientific observation of our world and nature in substitute for a magical world view. Show the proof for your accusation or retract it! I have expressed support for the idea that the Church has preserved Western Civilization until the Renaissance. Clearly I place my affection to that transformitive era.



Like I said.. tell it to the ghost of Copernicus, bitch. Name ONE SINGLE THING that we observe dogma giving more insight than science. ONE SINGLE THING that rebels against the historic FACT of christianity having to eventually accept the science it was originally quick to torch. You cant do it. You cant name ONE single aspect of our culture which christianity provides a greater comprehension than science. Thus, since you are do goddamn dumb to understand my allusion, YOUR kids will be touting evolution, REGARDLESS of it's variant form, just like YOU do heliocentrism today. Go ahead and take away the telescope and science text book, dude. Making Mani's pink puppy junk pop out of it's sheath won't change this.

HEY, maybe another DARK AGE will SAVE CIVILIZATION!



Hell, WITCH BURNING, ILLITERACY and fucking DISEASE are all telltale signs of healthy societies buried in the fertile soil of christianity! Just ask CHINA.

 

[editec]

This seems to me to no longer be an argument about Western civilization, rather one between two people with agendas setting out to either villify or glorify Western Roman Catholic Christianity

Western Civ (read The WESTERN ROMAN EMPIRE -- also known as the HOLY Roman Empire writ LARGE) collapsed.

Since Rome had become a Christian Empire by the time of its collapse, and since most of the former places in the Western European lands of that Empire were under siege and attack by tribes of Frankish pagans, the people of the empire had very little left of that Roman civilization BUT their Church to cling to and use as a unifying cultural identity

The Roman Church didn't SAVE civilization, it was just about all that was left of the structure of ROME that still had enough cohesion to survive.

Meanwhile the EASTERN Roman Empire, still another Christian Empire, please note, continued on its merry way largely untouched by the invasions of the Frankish heathens.

So, one could make the case that the Chuch didn't SAVE Western Euopean Civilization, so much as the fact that the Roman Catholic Church WAS Western Civilization...at least for a while.

A Christian civilization fraught with warts and flaws, to be sure, but really...that was about the only civilized (by their standards, at least) game in town.

 

[Ravi]

You tell 'em Shog. Damn Mexico is part of western civilization, too, and look at that rat-hole.

 

[Gungnir]

If YOU want to claim that christians saved CIVILIZATION, well, then you'd be a fucking retarded crackhead. IF you want to claim that it helped MOLD WESTERN civ then you'd have a point.

Excerpts from my posts in this thread.

post #15
After the fall of Rome, the Church's enticement of Emperorhood, Excommunication, and Crusade probably helped stabelize the rowdy Barbarians.

Without the Roman Catholic Church, there is no telling how civilization would have developed. I don't imagine we would have had the Italian Renaissance.

post #19
The Church saved Europe long enough from Barbarity until the Enlightenment multiplied the vector by the freaking huge ass scalar.

post #28
A.) The Church was a memtic institution to which a barbarian people could direct their respect, and in this capacity it saved the skillset cultivated by the preceeding people until the barbarians had become settled enough to utilize such.
B.) Barbarians do not become Romans overnight.

post #46
Why would I not celebrate the Italian Renaissance and Enlightenment thereafter? That is the event which propelled Western European Civilization to the appex and allowed it to conquer the world.

The Renaissance is a point of pride for me.

post #49
A pagan Byzantine Emperor could not have offered the Imperator Romanorum.
Which led to this which made these people turn into these people who prospered off of this. By the time this was over they were ready for the Enlightenment.

You are screatching and flapping your arms for the sake of your own amusement.

one can make the exact same argument about the GREEK PANTHEON SAVING western civ too.

You would be wrong.

Like I said.. tell it to the ghost of Copernicus, bitch. Name ONE SINGLE THING that we observe dogma giving more insight than science. ONE SINGLE THING that rebels against the historic FACT of christianity having to eventually accept the science it was originally quick to torch. You cant do it. You cant name ONE single aspect of our culture which christianity provides a greater comprehension than science.

Quote my words (one single sentence) where I disparage science, the Italian Renaissance, the Englightenment, the Industrial Revolution, or any such.

Thus, since you are do goddamn dumb to understand my allusion, YOUR kids will be touting evolution, REGARDLESS of it's variant form, just like YOU do heliocentrism today. Go ahead and take away the telescope and science text book, dude. Making Mani's pink puppy junk pop out of it's sheath won't change this.

Monkey, quit throwing shit and prove your claims about my beliefs with citations.

Hell, WITCH BURNING, ILLITERACY and fucking DISEASE are all telltale signs of healthy societies buried in the fertile soil of christianity!

Telltale of a plague ridden barbarian people coping with new lifestyle in a changing environment through available means of cause and effect comprehension. Barbarians settled and adjusted, plagues receded--things improve.

DOMINATES the fucking world, eh? HA! Tell that to China, sucker.

Their culture left them at the Qing Dynasty, ours took them to the modern day. Say hello to the Opium Wars.

Just ask CHINA.

Open a thread for discussion of the Orient.

This seems to me to no longer be an argument about Western civilization, rather one between two people with agendas setting out to either villify or glorify Western Roman Catholic Christianity

I am not glorifying, only accounting. I am an axe grinding orthodoxy quaker deist.

Western Civ (read The WESTERN ROMAN EMPIRE -- also known as the HOLY Roman Empire writ LARGE) collapsed.

Since Rome had become a Christian Empire by the time of its collapse, and since most of the former places in the Western European lands of that Empire were under siege and attack by tribes of Frankish pagans, the people of the empire had very little left of that Roman civilization BUT their Church to cling to and use as a unifying cultural identity

The Roman Church didn't SAVE civilization, it was just about all that was left of the structure of ROME that still had enough cohesion to survive.

{snip}

So, one could make the case that the Chuch didn't SAVE Western Euopean Civilization, so much as the fact that the Roman Catholic Church WAS Western Civilization...at least for a while.

A Christian civilization fraught with warts and flaws, to be sure, but really...that was about the only civilized (by their standards, at least) game in town.

Yes.

You tell 'em Shog. Damn Mexico is part of western civilization, too, and look at that rat-hole.

What was the colonial ambition of Spain compared to England in America?

 

[Shogun]

oh yes.. apparently, in western civ Greeks don't matter despite being a bronze age CIVILIZATION that directly influenced Rome...

:LOL:


This is the kind of shit im talking about, dude. if you wanna believe that christianity was the key to the success of western civ then so be it. Unicorns and dragons exist in the rainforrest too, buddy. you'd better get your expedition on.

 

[editec]

Quote:
Hell, WITCH BURNING, ILLITERACY and fucking DISEASE are all telltale signs of healthy societies buried in the fertile soil of christianity!

Hey, while I am not defending witch burning illiteracy or disease, you sound as though you believe that the Roman civilization was not far more brutal, ignorant and diseased than the Chistendom that replaced it.

Do you have any idea how monsterous and brutal that Roman Empire that Christendom eventually replaced really was?

Christendom Europe was a far less brutal society, and far more like what we have now, than Rome ever was.

DESPITE all its flaws, despite that we all reject the stagnation of the mideval era, suggesting that the highly functional (but moribund) Christendom society was far worse than the one it replaced is just flat out a wild overstatement, and hardly one that does not reveal your prejudice, either.

Rome fell because it was corrupt.

It no longer served the people of the empire enough for the people of the empire to care what happened to it.

It could NOT fight off the pagan hordes.

Please note that the Christendom culture you obviously so loath DID have enough social cohesion that Rome had lost.

Christendom not only survived wave after wave of pagan invasions, but it turned those pagans into devout Christians who eventually drove the Moslems out of Europe. (Go Charles Martel, leader adn founder of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE!)

So one can't help but think that that despite all that we both think is pretty damned lame, Christendom must have been doing something right.

It lasted nearly 1000 years before it morphed into this enlightened society which most historians credit as having started in the 15th century or so.

Somebody mentioned Caporicus in this thread, right?

Bear in mind that he was the PRODUCT of the education one could get in what was basically Christian universities in Bologna and Padua.

Had he not become fascinated by budding science he'd might very well have become a BISHOP.

 

[Gungnir]

oh yes.. apparently, in western civ Greeks don't matter despite being a bronze age CIVILIZATION that directly influenced Rome...

Monkey, attend to your own words, emphasis mine:

one can make the exact same argument about the GREEK PANTHEON SAVING western civ too.

Assuming you are not addressing the Pantheon Temple in Rome, and that you are not addressing the Parthenon in Athens; but specifically the pantheon of Greek dieties...

The Church was an actual institution which preserved scholasticism, fostered a study of philosophy, fostered a sense of commonhood amongst nations, generated artistic and economic commerce, and attempted to instill a form of societal order.

The pantheon of Greek dieties was utilized by an already settled people and was used in the teaching of morallizing fables at best. At most; the pantheon did not settle barbarians into cultured people -- it was the product of a cultured people.

This is the kind of shit im talking about, dude.

Your inability to read?

if you wanna believe that christianity was the key to the success of western civ then so be it.

Now that you are on the correct civilization, you will address the issue claimed: that Christianity saved (preserved, provided rudiments of) Western Civilization.

Obviously the success of Western Civilization lay in the Italian Renaissance.

Unicorns and dragons exist in the rainforrest too, buddy. you'd better get your expedition on.

Unicorn 1
Unicorn 2
Dragon 1
Dragon 2
Dragon 3


Provide citations from what I have typed for the things you accused me of.

 

[editec]

This debate rages on because it is based on a flawed premise.

Christianity couldn't SAVE civilization because there was nothing remotely like a civiliation (as we understand the meaning of that term, at least) to save.

The government of the Western Roman EMPIRE could no longer carry out the unifying activities which made that empire (and its version of "civilization) exist.

The fragments of civilization which it left behind were to a great extent on their own.

The only organization left which kept western Europe from COMPLETELY fragmenting was the Church.

As that Church began filling the management vacumn that a fallen rome left behind, it became more and more THE unifying force of the gestalt of the Western world.

 

[Gungnir]

Please explain the term "gestalt".

 

[editec]

gestalt
n : a configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole
that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts

Civilization pretty much fits this bill, methinks.

Hence, suggesting that "Christianity saved civilization" misses the point.

Christianity was so much a part of that post Roman civilization that it cannot be separated from the civilization itself to be given credit (or not) for saving it.

 

[Shogun]

Hey, while I am not defending witch burning illiteracy or disease, you sound as though you believe that the Roman civilization was not far more brutal, ignorant and diseased than the Chistendom that replaced it.
Do you have any idea how monsterous and brutal that Roman Empire that Christendom eventually replaced really was?
Christendom Europe was a far less brutal society, and far more like what we have now, than Rome ever was.
DESPITE all its flaws, despite that we all reject the stagnation of the mideval era, suggesting that the highly functional (but moribund) Christendom society was far worse than the one it replaced is just flat out a wild overstatement, and hardly one that does not reveal your prejudice, either.
Rome fell because it was corrupt.
It no longer served the people of the empire enough for the people of the empire to care what happened to it.
It could NOT fight off the pagan hordes.
Please note that the Christendom culture you obviously so loath DID have enough social cohesion that Rome had lost.
Christendom not only survived wave after wave of pagan invasions, but it turned those pagans into devout Christians who eventually drove the Moslems out of Europe. (Go Charles Martel, leader adn founder of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE!)
So one can't help but think that that despite all that we both think is pretty damned lame, Christendom must have been doing something right.
It lasted nearly 1000 years before it morphed into this enlightened society which most historians credit as having started in the 15th century or so.
Somebody mentioned Caporicus in this thread, right?
Bear in mind that he was the PRODUCT of the education one could get in what was basically Christian universities in Bologna and Padua.
Had he not become fascinated by budding science he'd might very well have become a BISHOP.

ooooh yes.. FAR less brutal! Indeed, no less than 9 crusades AND an inquisisition to boot. From conquering to EXTERMINATING locals who did not coply you act as though christians were not out doing the exacts SAEM SHIT that Rome did to the germanic people. Hell, from pope to pope it's fucking laughable to suggest that christianity was LESS SAVAGE than Rome just because YOU identify with jebus and not Zeus. For real, dude. talk about spitshining a fucking turd. ROME WAS A FUCKING ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY TOO. I mean, we ONLY take our fucking political structure from it instead of, say, the fucking VATICAN.


christianity didn't SAVE shit. and it sure as hell wasn't the angel of civilization during it's reign any more than confucious is the only reason there is a united china. Hell, let's go ahead and ignore the FACT that it was christians that destroyed ROME's superiority in the world!

 

[Paul Itical]

The crusades were countering the muslims. I thought everyone knew this?

 

[Shogun]

Monkey, attend to your own words, emphasis mine:


Assuming you are not addressing the Pantheon Temple in Rome, and that you are not addressing the Parthenon in Athens; but specifically the pantheon of Greek dieties...

The Church was an actual institution which preserved scholasticism, fostered a study of philosophy, fostered a sense of commonhood amongst nations, generated artistic and economic commerce, and attempted to instill a form of societal order.

The pantheon of Greek dieties was utilized by an already settled people and was used in the teaching of morallizing fables at best. At most; the pantheon did not settle barbarians into cultured people -- it was the product of a cultured people.


Your inability to read?


Now that you are on the correct civilization, you will address the issue claimed: that Christianity saved (preserved, provided rudiments of) Western Civilization.

Obviously the success of Western Civilization lay in the Italian Renaissance.


Unicorn 1
Unicorn 2
Dragon 1
Dragon 2
Dragon 3


Provide citations from what I have typed for the things you accused me of.

rhinos, huh? RHINOS are unicorns now? nice.



say, what was the illiteracy rate during 80% of chrisian domination of culture again? yes.. preserved I tellya! HOw many OTHER civilizations were wiped out by CHRISTIANS again? indeed, i'm sure we'd all be wandering the fields if the jebus cult were not here to SAVE civilization!

 

[Shogun]

The crusades were countering the muslims. I thought everyone knew this?

Did the muslims NOT have a civilization going on? Gosh.. those pesky fucking arabs and their ALgebra... surely thats just a myth.

 

[Ravi]

This debate rages on because it is based on a flawed premise.

Christianity couldn't SAVE civilization because there was nothing remotely like a civiliation (as we understand the meaning of that term, at least) to save.

The government of the Western Roman EMPIRE could no longer carry out the unifying activities which made that empire (and its version of "civilization) exist.

The fragments of civilization which it left behind were to a great extent on their own.

The only organization left which kept western Europe from COMPLETELY fragmenting was the Church.

As that Church began filling the management vacumn that a fallen rome left behind, it became more and more THE unifying force of the gestalt of the Western world.

Have you read the book? It's actually quite entertaining.

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
In this delightful and illuminating look into a crucial but little-known "hinge" of history, Thomas Cahill takes us to the "island of saints and scholars," the Ireland of St. Patrick and the Book of Kells. Here, far from the barbarian despoliation of the continent, monks and scribes laboriously, lovingly, even playfully preserved the West's written treasury. When stability returned in Europe, these Irish scholars were instrumental in spreading learning, becoming not only the conservators of civilization, but also the shapers of the medieval mind, putting their unique stamp on Western culture.

 

[editec]

ooooh yes.. FAR less brutal! Indeed, no less than 9 crusades AND an inquisisition to boot.

Comparing those pathetic dust-ups to the wholesale slaughter that Rome typically did, is of course, an enormous mistake of scale.

But if your point is that Christendom was not the same enlightened society of people that you and I are members of, you'll get no debate from me on that point.

From conquering to EXTERMINATING locals who did not coply you act as though christians were not out doing the exacts SAEM SHIT that Rome did to the germanic people.

Again, the issue upon which we disagree is mostly one of scale and comparison.

Hell, from pope to pope it's fucking laughable to suggest that Christianity was LESS SAVAGE than Rome just because YOU identify with jebus and not Zeus.

I do not identify with Jesus OR Zeus, FYI.

I suggest that Christendom was less savage than Rome because I know something about just how savage Rome was, and know that Christendom simply didn't have the ability to be SO savage.

But hey, let's not let reality stand in the way of your great rant, shall we?

For real, dude. talk about spitshining a fucking turd.

For really real dude, I am treating you with respect, and I'd appreciate the same from you.

ROME WAS A FUCKING ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY TOO.

In some ways, Rome was far more enlightened than Christendom to be sure.

IF you define enlightenment as advanced engineering, I suppose.

I mean, we ONLY take our fucking political structure from it instead of, say, the fucking VATICAN.

I wasn't aware that Rome had universal suffrage or a bicameral house. Neither was I aware that Rome had a bill of rights, or a supreme court either.

I think that I probably have forgotten more about the real (and really complex and often changing) history of the Roman government than you will ever know, dude.

christianity didn't SAVE shit.

If you had actually read my posts you would realize that that is exactly what I have been saying since post one.

Christianity didn't SAVE the post Roman civilization, it WAS the post-Roman civilization. Perhaps the distinction is too fine for you to grasp, but I can assure you the distinction is vast.

and it sure as hell wasn't the angel of civilization

It sure as hell wasn't. I quite agree.

In fact, much of it was seriously tragically flawed in ways that I am sure both you are I both would agree is thoroughly repugnant.

Something I noted that Christendom was flawed in my previous posts, but apparently you missed that in your zeal to put words into my mouth so you could give me your lecture which is essentially entirely fact free.

during it's reign any more than confucious is the only reason there is a united china.

Now you're just being silly and having a tussle with some straw man of your imagination.

Hell, let's go ahead and ignore the FACT that it was christians that destroyed ROME's superiority in the world!

Let's ignore the fact that you obviously are basing your opinions about what the root cause of the fall of IMPERIAL Rome based on your own prejudices and your obvious (and ignorance-based) hard-on about events in history that you barely know anything about.

But in your defense, what your argument lacks in substance you more than make up for with bluster.

 

[editec]

Ravi asked

Have you read the book? It's actually quite entertaining.

How the Irish Saved Civilization, you mean?

Right now it's sitting on the water closet of my crapper. I've read about half of it.

So far it strikes me as having validity ONLY if you credit civilization as meaning only LITERATURE.

Perhaps, my opinion will change by the time I finish it.

But I completely agree with you it is an interesting premise and a good read.

It is, I think somewhat overstated and entirely too Celto-centric.

Bear in mind while WESTERN ROMAN EMPIRE shit the bed, the EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE continued to thrive for quite some time.

Their contribution (and that of the Moslems, too) to the dispersal of the knowledge that we like now like to think of as WESTERN was pretty significant, too.

 

[Gungnir]

Civilization pretty much fits this bill, methinks.

Hence, suggesting that "Christianity saved civilization" misses the point.

Christianity was so much a part of that post Roman civilization that it cannot be separated from the civilization itself to be given credit (or not) for saving it.

This sounds reasonable.

Hell, let's go ahead and ignore the FACT that it was christians that destroyed ROME's superiority in the world!

Show proof that such was more detrimental than:
Octavian not codifying rules of succession for the Emperorhood;
the appointment of Commodus as Emperor;
the coming to power of the Severan Dynasty;
Caracalla's giving citizenship to all freemen in the Empire;
the continual Barbarian migration into Europe;
the increased centralization of power to the Emperorhood;
the tetrarchy;
the use of slave labor over the steam engine;
increasing use of foreign mercenaries and granting of lands to them;
increasing trouble with Asiatic upstarts and powers.

The crusades were countering the muslims. I thought everyone knew this?

Partly, it started out more against the Turks. Even then the Crusaders sacked Constantinople, weakening it in the long run.

Did the muslims NOT have a civilization going on? Gosh.. those pesky fucking arabs and their ALgebra... surely thats just a myth.

Monkey, irrelevant to the discussion.

rhinos, huh? RHINOS are unicorns now? nice.

European rhinos died out so only folktales and cave paintings would have been left. Over the millenia it is quite possible tales about Rhinos became Unicorns. Or are you too stupid to see that?

Say Monkey, what of the Pantheon? Have any more comments?

say, what was the illiteracy rate during 80% of chrisian domination of culture again?

This is not 100% so, in your own words:

yes.. preserved I tellya!

HOw many OTHER civilizations were wiped out by CHRISTIANS again?

Monkey, that is irrelevant; this is about ONE particular civilization that was a direct descendant of western christendom.


Monkey, read carefully; provide citations from what I have typed for the things you accused me of.