How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?

[Madeline]

Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US? Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live. Crime is rampant. Corruption is rampant. Unbearable poverty is inescapable there. The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.

No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry. We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.

The problem is not insoluable. Mexico has the highest GDP of any Latin American nation. What does the US need to do to entice Mexicans to return home and stay there?

What would YOU want from your home? Safety. Opportunity. We need to legalize drugs and end the stranglehold of drug crime, and we need to require the Mexican government to adopt social policies that entice illegals to go home. These people need to see the chance of a better life in Mexico, not the US.

That means we'll be paying more for food, as stoop laborers must be paid the minimum wage. But I'd much rather do that than gun down Mexican teenagers and continue to support a Drug War with my taxes that has been a failure for decades.

An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico. It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.

 

[José]

Madeline's argument has one basic flaw:

1 - The idea that Mexico's economic development will stop (or even greatly reduce) the flow of illegal Mexicans.

No matter how much the mexican economy grows, the abyss that separates the mexican from the american minimum wage and their purchasing power will always be so huge that the mexican economic growth will have nothing but a negligible effect on illegal immigration.

 

[Madeline]

I'm sure there is some validity to that assertion, Jose. But in general, people do not grow up hoping to leave home and move some place that does not welcome them and where their native tongue is not spoken. Most folks will remain in their nation of birth so long as they are safe and see opportunity.

Mexico has the means to be a much more populist nation than it is. Today, it is basically run to accommodate the elite and the drug gangs. The US's foreign policy ignores or encourages this, and our policies at home encourage illegal immigration.

If we cannot allow every impoverished Mexican to move here, then we have to start addressing the reasons why they are so desperate to leave Mexico. I don't see any alternative -- do you?

 

[José]

I greatly respect and admire your deep sense of compassion towards the mexican people, Madeline, even thogh I don't think your idea will have a significant impact on mexican illegal immigration...

While so many americans are having murderous fantasies about shooting illegal mexicans as they cross the border you are here trying to come up with a plan to improve their lives in Mexico.

There is a world of difference between you and the super patriotic american clowns of this Message Board who think its OK to shoot a mexican crossing the border INSTEAD OF JUST ARRESTING AND DEPORTING THEM.

The same difference that exists between Jesus Christ and monsters like Hitler, Stalin and Truman.

Regardless of what you, member of the US Message Board, think of Madeline's idea you have to agree with me that her plan is MORALLY SUPERIOR because it seeks to solve America's immigration problem and improve the living conditions for all mexicans at the same time.

 

[syrenn]

Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US? Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live. Crime is rampant. Corruption is rampant. Unbearable poverty is inescapable there. The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.

Agreed, but they are still illegal. They break the law coming here.

No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry. We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.

And why should it be OUR responsibility to change mexico?

The problem is not insoluable. Mexico has the highest GDP of any Latin American nation. What does the US need to do to entice Mexicans to return home and stay there?

Why should we have to entice them to do anything, especially to go home? You don't roll out the red carpet in the first place and say come on in for all the free stuff. You don't entice them to go home, you make them go home where they belong or stop them from coming in the first place. If they come legally FINE they are more then welcome and i applaud them for coming. I hope they make it and survive here.

What would YOU want from your home? Safety. Opportunity. We need to legalize drugs and end the stranglehold of drug crime, and we need to require the Mexican government to adopt social policies that entice illegals to go home. These people need to see the chance of a better life in Mexico, not the US.

Do we really need to do that to stop the tide of illegals? How would legalizing drugs make it safer for illegals or give them more oppotunities here in this country? Do you mean safer to buy, sell and traffic drugs. Or a larger opportunity to drug dealers and opperate with impunity?

Don't be so naive. How are WE to make mexico adopt social programs? WE need to stop giving them social programs here in the US that makes US so enticing to them

That means we'll be paying more for food, as stoop laborers must be paid the minimum wage. But I'd much rather do that than gun down Mexican teenagers and continue to support a Drug War with my taxes that has been a failure for decades.

Agreed food prices would go up. But it is also illegal to hire illegals, so what you would see is a price check. As to gunning down teenagers, do you really think they picked him saying "oh a teenager, lets shoot him?" They shoot someone crossing the boarder illegaly throwing rocks. Good for the boarder patrol.

An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico. It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.

Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.

 

[Madeline]

syrenn wrote in part:

Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.

syrenn, ever visited a very wealthy community surrounded by poor people? Someplace like Bloomfield Hills near Detroit? Do you know how they keep safe? Their cops pick up everyone black or hispanic and demand to know why they're there. They stop every beaten down car. They stop people on foot or on bicycles and demand to know what they are doing there, especially if they look out of place (meaning, not dressed like a wealthy person).

Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage -- and by effectively denying US businesses and employers the right to hire illegals. We have to stop importing Haitians into the Florida sugar fields on special visas that allow Big Sugar to use even children to harvest the crop -- and to do this, we have to agree that a bag of sugar will cost $10, not $1.

We have to look beyond our own borders and see what our selfish, stupid War on Drugs has done to the nations of Latin America. Those drugs are grown and brought here for US use...then let's legalize them, tax them and get the criminals out of the drug trade.

It is simply not realistic to believe that Mexicans can live horrible, wretched lives while Americans live good ones and illegal immigration will just magically end. As long as there is this terrible disparity in security and opportunity, Mexicans will strive to become Americans. They leave home for EXACTLY the same reason my folks did in the 1920's.

 

[syrenn]

syrenn wrote in part:

Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.

syrenn, ever visited a very wealthy community surrounded by poor people? Someplace like Bloomfield Hills near Detroit? Do you know how they keep safe? Their cops pick up everyone black or hispanic and demand to know why they're there. They stop every beaten down car. They stop people on foot or on bicycles and demand to know what they are doing there, especially if they look out of place (meaning, not dressed like a wealthy person).

And what has that rant have anything to do with how to stop illegal immigration? No dear I don't think they stop EVERY care or person. That is unless they are trying to enter a gated community. The have's and have not's and the redistribution of wealth and money is not going to solve the immigration problem.


Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage -- and by effectively denying US businesses and employers the right to hire illegals. We have to stop importing Haitians into the Florida sugar fields on special visas that allow Big Sugar to use even children to harvest the crop -- and to do this, we have to agree that a bag of sugar will cost $10, not $1.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It is illegal to hire illegal workers.Please show me where we in the Florida that sugar company's hire child labor?

Again child labor is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the flow of illegals into this country.


We have to look beyond our own borders and see what our selfish, stupid War on Drugs has done to the nations of Latin America. Those drugs are grown and brought here for US use...then let's legalize them, tax them and get the criminals out of the drug trade.[/QUOTE]


Really? Why is it selfish and stupid? Are you so naive as to think that legalizing drugs will stop what is going on in other countries?

And again what does the drug trade have anything to so with illegal immigration? Are you saying that ALL illegals come here to deal drugs?

It is simply not realistic to believe that Mexicans can live horrible, wretched lives while Americans live good ones and illegal immigration will just magically end. As long as there is this terrible disparity in security and opportunity, Mexicans will strive to become Americans. They leave home for EXACTLY the same reason my folks did in the 1920's.[/QUOTE]

Why is it not realistic to think that? GOOD let the world come legally and there will be no problem.

 

[Madeline]

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted. American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant. We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end. Just as no other fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida. It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true. And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US? None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot. Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do. This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here. And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up. The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities. In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.

 

[The Infidel]

Invade Mexico?

 

[Madeline]

I dunno, The Infidel. We "arrested" Noreiga to free Panama from a dictator (I suppose); certainly we need to at least partner with Mexico to reverse the trend of concentrating its wealth in fewer and fewer hands.

 

[xsited1]

How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?

The US should buy Mexico and divide it into 7 States. Then we'll have 57 States.

 

[syrenn]

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted. American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant. We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end. Just as no other fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Dont mistake or assume that a do not know and understand about the farm labor problem.

What does the taxpayer have anything to do with "the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant"?

No one EXPECTS the prices of food to be the same as what our parents paid. Why do you think or assume that no one thinks the price of produce will go up if illegals are not longer available to hire? Could it be that YOU don't what YOUR prices to go up and you selfishly want them to stay in the fields as low payed workers?

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida. It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true. And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US? None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face..

Link please to all the child sugar labor in the US.

And who's fault is that that if there is child labor doing stoop work in CA fields? I would think its the illegal parents fault.

Bottom line if that is happening in this country than it is illegal.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot. Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do. This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here. And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up. The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities. In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

Really is that what we are all thinking, about SUV's and leather seats? You sure? And again what does that have anything to do with the illegal immigration problem? And again why is it up to us to ease what is going on in a different country?

Do we? We Have to?

AND WHY do WE have to lower our standards of life to BRING UP MEXICO'S? Please explain that.

Please explain how you leap to lawlessness and suffering in this country to the illegal immigration problem? Are you saying that illegals are the reason for lawlessness in this country? Are you saying that illegals are all criminals?

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.

I don't believe anyone would doubt or refute that the poor conditions in illegals home countries is the REASON for the illegal immigration problem.

 

[tsalkonocii]

How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?

Arm the border. Warn them once, then shoot to kill.

Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?

The illegals? To run drugs and evade law enforcement because they're rapists and murderers. Actual (legal) immigrants come for the same reasons as the vast majority of immigrants.

Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live. Crime is rampant. Corruption is rampant. Unbearable poverty is inescapable there. The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.

A tradition of crime? And we're to respect that crime because it's tradition?

No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry

We can absorb none. Line them all up and shoot every last one of them.

You want to move here, you fill out the paperwork and get in line.

. We need to deport them...

So they can try again? No, we simply need to shoot them.

You want to improve Mexico? Move there and start organizing your new brothers and sisters to reform the nation and society. I recommend joining the Zapatistas (while they're there, grab me some coffee. I had some of their [The Zapatistas'] coffee once and it was pretty good)

 

[tsalkonocii]

ever visited a very wealthy community surrounded by poor people? Someplace like Bloomfield Hills near Detroit? Do you know how they keep safe? Their cops pick up everyone black or hispanic and demand to know why they're there. They stop every beaten down car. They stop people on foot or on bicycles and demand to know what they are doing there, especially if they look out of place (meaning, not dressed like a wealthy person).

And I gave them my ID card (I visited a rather nice area to look for work a few years back while I was down on my luck and looked less than wealthy) and they let me alone after running my name and determining that I was committing no crime. One even gave me sandwich and informed me of a job fair that would be occurring a few days later. In the several states I've visited, I've only rarely met an officer who wasn't quite helpful and pleasant when they determined I was an honest sort.

Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage

Come here legally and you'll get that as a legal resident who works over the table.

 

[Madeline]

tsalkonocii, the minimum wage law and the social security law has always exempted farm and domestic laborers, as well as restaurant staff.

BTW, I find your murderous intentions towards illegals appalling. If your family were starving and terrified of criminals who murder and commit all forms of mayhem, I imagine you'd do anything possible to get them to safety. Too bad we didn't turn back YOUR folks when they sought to enter the US.

 

[Madeline]

syrenn wrote in part:

AND WHY do WE have to lower our standards of life to BRING UP MEXICO'S? Please explain that.

Illegal labor in the US adds an unknown but admittedly huge profit level to US business. Beyond that, it allows some US businesses, especially agriculture, to sell products at prices we would never see if the labor were legal and workplace safety laws were enforced.

Beyond that, illegals who work under false papers (which is most) contribute a healthy $5 Billion per year to the Social Security Trust Fund for benefits they will never collect. If their contributions are halted, Americans will have to face TODAY the problems of overpromising entitlements that most pols and most Americans would rather be drug through a hedge backwards than admit.

Beyond that, Mexico needs foreign aid from the US and elsewhere. Although programs to redistribute its wealth and develop a decent tax base can take that nation far, they won't go far enough or fast enough. It is not in the best interests of the US to have its next door neighbor starve. I dunno what is so difficult to see about this.

 

[tsalkonocii]

what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US?

The stupidity of the far left?

Only Mexicans can improve the condition of Mexico. Just look at the blacks in America or the aid we send to Africa- all the handouts in the world change nothing if the people of the region aren't prepared to stand up and take serious measures to improve things.

 

[tsalkonocii]

I dunno, The Infidel. We "arrested" Noreiga to free Panama from a dictator (I suppose); certainly we need to at least partner with Mexico to reverse the trend of concentrating its wealth in fewer and fewer hands.

That's not why we arrested Noriega.

He, like bin Laden, was a CIA asset that stabbed us in the back.

 

[Angelhair]

Mexico is a sovereign nation. They are a proud people even tho in my opinion, misplaced pride - but - they do not appreciate any country, and especially the USA, interferring in their internal affairs, although they have NO problem interferring in ours - which is why I say it's a country that has suferred centuries with a warped mentality born out of poverty, lawlessness, chaos, misery, corruption, and in many instances, ignorance. This is what this country keeps fighting against.....a losing battle.

 

[nraforlife]

Very simple folks- kill as many as it takes to persuade them to stop coming here.