How about Hiring Those Vets?

[CSM]

So you disagree?

Did you read the thing?

If you had, you would know that part of the contract is agreement to obey the orders of the President of the United States (and the governor of xxx state if you are a reservist) as well as the orders of those officers appointed over the signee.

There is indeed a contract and it is very specific. So yes, I disagree that there is social contract between the citizen and the soldier. I wish there were...maybe veterans would have a better deal once they got out.

The 'contract' between the POTUS and US citizens is a whole different subject.

 

[Diuretic]

Did you read the thing?

If you had, you would know that part of the contract is agreement to obey the orders of the President of the United States (and the governor of xxx state if you are a reservist) as well as the orders of those officers appointed over the signee.

There is indeed a contract and it is very specific. So yes, I disagree that there is social contract between the citizen and the soldier. I wish there were...maybe veterans would have a better deal once they got out.

The 'contract' between the POTUS and US citizens is a whole different subject.

Can the president order a soldier to go to war to protect/extend private, corporate interests?

 

[CSM]

Can the president order a soldier to go to war to protect/extend private, corporate interests?

Sure he could. He could also order them to go to war to depose a dictator or intervene an impending threat, etc. The point is, once enllisted, the individual agrees to obey the orders of the POTUS. The contract does not say ... if you agree with the President's motives." I read that contract carefully many times....did not see that anywhere.

The President's motives are (again) another subject. As you well know, military personal, once they sign an enlistment contract, do not get to pick and choose which orders they want to follow. The contract they entered inot was signed KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY. No one FORCED them to sign that contract.

Military personnel have a choice. it is THEIR choice...not yours, not some poster's on a message board and not some anti war freaks choice. You may not LIKe their choice but I am willing to bet that there are many military personnel who don't like the choices some civilians make either.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's the legal contract of employment thing, but what about the implied duties on the employer? Are there any? Is there a clause which says, "We promise not to send you somewhere to be killed in an effort to enrich private corporations"?

Actually, people line up to apply for jobs in dangerous places because the pay is good.

 

[Adam's Apple]

Yes... I think the fake patriots with the Support Our Troops magnets on their cars are absolutely being hypocritical.

Agreed, and there are a lot of fake patriots out there.

Actually, what I was asking was: Is it hypocritical to say that we as a country support the troops when seemingly, according to the article Saunders wrote, vets have a hard time securing a decent paying job after their terms of service end? It seems to me these guys should receive priority treatment when securing employment if they meet all the job qualifications. I find it hard to believe that a returning soldier only has enough skills to hold down a job paying less than $22,000/yr.

Of course, Fields is a San Francisco writer and she was writing about the situation in her area; it is really not that surprising that vets in that area would have a harder time finding good jobs, knowing how that "neck of the woods" feels about the military.

 

[jillian]

Agreed, and there are a lot of fake patriots out there.

Actually, what I was asking was: Is it hypocritical to say that we as a country support the troops when seemingly, according to the article Fields wrote, vets have a hard time securing a decent paying job after their terms of service end? It seems to me these guys should receive priority treatment when securing employment if they meet all the job qualifications. I find it hard to believe that a returning soldier only has enough skills to hold down a job paying less than $22,000/yr.

Of course, Fields is a San Francisco writer and she was writing about the situation in her area; it is really not that surprising that vets in that area would have a harder time finding good jobs, knowing how that "neck of the woods" feels about the military.

My response is YES. It is hypocritical to say support our troops and then not provide them with every possible assistance when they return. I doubt that San Francisco differs greatly from other parts of the country in regard to employment or treatment of vets. I heard about an Ohio case where a man was sued while he was in the military with respect to his things in storeage. No one provided proper information to the judge (or the judge made an incorrect decision) in accordance with the soldiers and sailors civil relief act (which keeps people in active military from being sued). In any event... when the guy got home from Iraq, all his things were destroyed b/c the storeage company was allowed to dispose of them. Now, that's just anectdotal, but issues like that come up all the time. And, as for employment, perhaps with so many troops returning with PTSD, it is difficult for them to get and hold jobs (or perhaps even take the necessary steps like sending out resumes or applying for jobs). So all the assistance possible should be given them. And, if they need job training, they should have that, too. I figure they've earned it.

Just my opinion on the subject.

*Edit* And if you're interested in helping.. this is a great organization: http://iava.org/

 

[Shogun]

this thread reminds me of Starship Troopers.

The book. not the movie.


Interspersed throughout the book are other flashbacks to Rico's high school History and Moral Philosophy course, which describe how, in the Terran Federation, the rights of a full Citizen (to vote, and hold public office) must be earned through voluntary Federal service. However, the franchise cannot be exercised until after honorable discharge from the Service, which means that active members of the Service cannot vote. Those residents who opt not to perform Federal Service retain the other rights generally associated with a modern democracy (e.g. free speech, assembly, etc.), but cannot vote or hold public office. This structure arose ad hoc after the collapse of the 20th century Western democracies, brought on by both social failures at home and military defeat by the Chinese Hegemony overseas (i.e. looking forward into the late 20th century from the time the novel was written in the late 1950s).[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers


If you like a good sci-fi read with a military flavour you'll dig it. Heinlein was interesting in his political views like that.

According to Heinlein, his desire to write Starship Troopers was sparked by the publication of a newspaper advertisement placed by the National Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy on April 5, 1958 calling for a unilateral suspension of nuclear weapon testing by the United States. In response, Robert and Virginia Heinlein created the Patrick Henry League in an attempt to create support for the U.S. nuclear testing program.

 

[CSM]

My response is YES. It is hypocritical to say support our troops and then not provide them with every possible assistance when they return. I doubt that San Francisco differs greatly from other parts of the country in regard to employment or treatment of vets. I heard about an Ohio case where a man was sued while he was in the military with respect to his things in storeage. No one provided proper information to the judge (or the judge made an incorrect decision) in accordance with the soldiers and sailors civil relief act (which keeps people in active military from being sued). In any event... when the guy got home from Iraq, all his things were destroyed b/c the storeage company was allowed to dispose of them. Now, that's just anectdotal, but issues like that come up all the time. And, as for employment, perhaps with so many troops returning with PTSD, it is difficult for them to get and hold jobs (or perhaps even take the necessary steps like sending out resumes or applying for jobs). So all the assistance possible should be given them. And, if they need job training, they should have that, too. I figure they've earned it.

Just my opinion on the subject.

*Edit* And if you're interested in helping.. this is a great organization: http://iava.org/

Not to butt in but in case you are not aware...

The Army (don't know about the other services) has programs to help military members about to end their enlistments write resumes, contact potential employers and a whole host of other things to ease them into civilian life. Many take advantage of this but some do not (especially the younger troops).

As for skills, the Army also has a program that matches military skill sets (everything from infantry to radar technicians) potential job skills.

The point is, the help is there IF the soldier chooses to get it. In fact, the initial briefing making them aware of this help is MANDATORY prior to departure from the Army.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Not to butt in but in case you are not aware...

The Army (don't know about the other services) has programs to help military members about to end their enlistments write resumes, contact potential employers and a whole host of other things to ease them into civilian life. Many take advantage of this but some do not (especially the younger troops).

As for skills, the Army also has a program that matches military skill sets (everything from infantry to radar technicians) potential job skills.

The point is, the help is there IF the soldier chooses to get it. In fact, the initial briefing making them aware of this help is MANDATORY prior to departure from the Army.

All the services have that and keep up to date with it. All bases hold Job Fairs and seek out employers looking for military members leaving the service. The job assistance offices are well stocked and run by civilians, with computer access and resume skills and other classes given on a regular basis. You must be debriefed before you can be discharged and that service is required to sign that you have been there and know about its assistance.

 

[Gunny]

Actually, I graduated from law school when I was still 22.

My first job? Money was sucky... very sucky. But I worked through law school also for the state's attorney general's office. so I always made some money.

Thing is, after WWII vets came back to the GI Bill... they had cheap mortgages, job training, etc. Nothing wrong with doing that for today's vets.

BTW, I wasn't the one who raised the issue or made it a "hypocrisy" issue. Was merely responding to the point raised. That being said, I still think it's good for us as a society to take care of our vets.

I think it's a good thing for us as a society to help our vets transition back into the public sector; which, the military does. Transition Assistance does everything for you but apply for the jobs for you, and at least in the Marine Corps, attendance within 90 days of detachment is not optional. It WILL happen or you won't get checked out.

I disagree that it is society's burden. These kids come out of nowhere, spend 3-4 years on active duty, can't wait to get out, and do nothing to prepare themselves for it. That is true in the overwhelming majority of 1st term military people. They are in essence, picking up as civilians where they left off when they finished high school.

Who gets out of high school and walks into a well-paying job? I always had to have a roommate to afford rent before I enlisted and I worked 60 hour weeks.

If they are disabled, then it is the military's - then the VA's responsibility to recompensate them for their disability. The VA will put you through school, pay you for your disability -- tax free - and you get free medical AND medication. Who else gets THAT?

What I DO know though from personal experience -- the VA will NOT come looking for you.

There are too many factors involved to pin it down to just one, or blame just the government.

 

[jillian]

I think it's a good thing for us as a society to help our vets transition back into the public sector; which, the military does. Transition Assistance does everything for you but apply for the jobs for you, and at least in the Marine Corps, attendance within 90 days of detachment is not optional. It WILL happen or you won't get checked out.

I disagree that it is society's burden. These kids come out of nowhere, spend 3-4 years on active duty, can't wait to get out, and do nothing to prepare themselves for it. That is true in the overwhelming majority of 1st term military people. They are in essence, picking up as civilians where they left off when they finished high school.

Who gets out of high school and walks into a well-paying job? I always had to have a roommate to afford rent before I enlisted and I worked 60 hour weeks.

If they are disabled, then it is the military's - then the VA's responsibility to recompensate them for their disability. The VA will put you through school, pay you for your disability -- tax free - and you get free medical AND medication. Who else gets THAT?

What I DO know though from personal experience -- the VA will NOT come looking for you.

There are too many factors involved to pin it down to just one, or blame just the government.

I don't think I'm talking about VA responsibility (well, maybe I am). But I do think it's the right thing. And, you know what... they are young...and stupid. It's why they're not afraid to put themselves in situations where they can get their heads blown off. Bravery/stupidity of youth. So I guess the price of that is helping them grow up if they survive it. At least I think it's the right thing to do.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't think I'm talking about VA responsibility (well, maybe I am). But I do think it's the right thing. And, you know what... they are young...and stupid. It's why they're not afraid to put themselves in situations where they can get their heads blown off. Bravery/stupidity of youth. So I guess the price of that is helping them grow up if they survive it. At least I think it's the right thing to do.

What part of , the Government already does that, do you fail to grasp?

It is MANDATORY to go to the transition office, To receive classes on the available help, the classes available, the computers available, the job fairs available, the job search engines available, the options for training available, etc etc. You MUST go and be briefed on these resources BEFORE you can even begin the process to be released from the military. Failure to attend means you are extended on active duty until YOU do attend.

 

[jillian]

Find something else to do, troll... there are people here worth talking to.

I know that troubles you.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Find something else to do, troll... there are people here worth talking to.

I know that troubles you.

Ya YOU can not handle the truth so when shown it you make personal attacks. OHH and to be a troll I would have to have responded OFF topic, I would think a moderator would know that. But you have in the past displayed your total lack of knowledge on things you claim to have been taught, so par for the course I guess.

Once again your above post ignores the fact the Government DOES take care of those leaving the service. It is mandatory and it happens. It has been happening for years now. Even in 1995 when I got out it was policy.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Find something else to do, troll... there are people here worth talking to.

I know that troubles you.

Ohh by the way, THIS post I just quoted is in fact a troll. But I guess thats ok cause you are special.

 

[Gunny]

I don't think I'm talking about VA responsibility (well, maybe I am). But I do think it's the right thing. And, you know what... they are young...and stupid. It's why they're not afraid to put themselves in situations where they can get their heads blown off. Bravery/stupidity of youth. So I guess the price of that is helping them grow up if they survive it. At least I think it's the right thing to do.

They aren't any more or less stupid than any other high school grad, and THEY make the decision to join.

Equating bravery with stupidity is just wrong, but another issue entirely.

Fortunately, there are those who disagree with your opinion because it is a double standard. We as a society are not and should not be responsible for those who won't be responsible for themselves.

When I retired, guess what novel approach I used to getting a civilian job? I applied for one. This isn't about rocket science.

I don't know why it is fine with you socialist-types to just tax the hell out of those who earn what they have to just give it to someone who doesn't because you feel sorry for them.

It's ridiculous.