How 5 Capitalist Democracies Do Health Care

[Procrustes Stretched]

Because our government is corrupt and totally incapable of running a social program that successfully and efficiently provides for those it intends to help.

Immie

Our government is NOT currupt. It is reflective of the voting public. The GOP has done what terrorists and rebels do when trying to destabilize nations they cannot win over with ideas....disruption, destruction, deceit, deception, all intended to make dupes like you say it is the government that is at fault.

Well I choose to blame people for their actions and not follow the words of partisan communication experts.

The Social Security program is run very well. The funding is at issue as it has always been...but ALL the millions of checks go out on time and all the people signing up get what they should. Medicare works too. When was the last time you heard of a patient insured by medicare being denied treatment for the things private insurers routinely deny paying customers for?

Take the profit out of health insurance and you will cut the costs of health care to managed able levels.

 

[Truthmatters]

So much for love of country.

All other industrialized nations seem to be better and more honest than the US in these peoples minds.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Anyone who has half a brain in Britain goes private... they don't use the NHS unless they can't afford insurance... because it's crap.

Talk of the British Model's faults are red herrings. Nobody is proposing we COPY GB, are they?

and btw, not one proposal I've ever heard of wants to have the government involved in treatment or doctors practices as us the case in GB. No one is proposing government hospitals and doctors like the VA or Great Britain.

Now STFU and allow the adults room to converse

 

[mudwhistle]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

Why do the conservatives always ignore that what Americans want and will do is make their own way and not copy a system from others?

Why does the GOP have so little respect for American ingenuity when it comes to figuring out a way around the health care crisis even they admit is real?

Here is how 5 Capitalist Democracies have dealt with health care. Maybe we can pick and choose things from them and stay away from mistakes made and stop trying to say as the GOP does, that we should re-invent the wheel?

Switzerland

An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

- link...link....sickaroundtheworld/countries/

Tell Congress this.

Personally I don't think they can grab their asses with both hands free.

They've managed to load up the bill with Ear-marks and bribes to the point that it doesn't do what they claim it will do.

It instead makes it illegal not to have insurance in effect attempting to force people to buy a product...which is unconstitutional. You can force them to give you money but you can't force them to purchase anything. "Affordable Health Insurance" is what they now call it....not Universal Health Care. Plus they now say that "96% of Americans will be covered under this health plan" which also removes the universal aspect of it. Millions are still being left out of the loop.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

This is going to be interesting. I wonder if it will become a Constitutional battle over the mandate to buy insurance.

Every state regulates its own insurnace and that is why insurance cannot be sold across state lines. I would suppose that somewhere in those 2000+ pages there is some referance to this, but if it has always been a state regulated item...

On the same track, if the Feds can sell the same policy across state lines, can other companies sell the same policy across state lines? Sauce for the goose and all that.

Will the same policy that works in NYC work on the plains of North Dakota? Will there be preferred provider networks recomended? Will there be HMO's structured to take advantage of the system's new capabilities? Will the fairly recent phenomenon of mega network hospitals be utilized in this or will they be regarded as too powerful and be broken...

thank you

 

[☭proletarian☭]

So much for love of country.

All other industrialized nations seem to be better and more honest than the US in these peoples minds.

The country's name and geographical borders means nothing. The principle it upholds are what matters.

 

[GWV5903]

The lazy want to follow, the real working class wants to pay their own way and the liberal left really has NO grasp of what makes America great and very different from Canada, UK, France and so on....

The idiot(s) that the left and independents elected last year have not had an original thought or idea since they where potty trained.....No they would rather try to copy a health care system(s) that EVERYONE knows are utter failures.....

GWV5903

So many try to claim that malpractice only adds 10% to our HC cost.....then why did Lawyers/Law Firms contribute $233+ million in the '08 campaign cycle? And since when did 10% become negligible?

Litigation has an immense impact on ALL of our cost, ultimately affecting everything, why is the liberal left so stupid? Could it be they are bought and paid for more than the right? Of that $233+ million (I left out the $37,000,000 from Lobbyist, still lawyers) 74% went to Democrats / 26% to Republicans.....

And most of the money from the Health Care lobby went to Republicans. But that will change, since the Republicans no longer hold the power. Lobbyists pay money where they can get results.No, silly one, you are not going to get away with that 10% nonsense. The real cost of litigation in the overall picture of health care is a very small fraction of 1%.

Report Debunks the Myths of Medical Malpractice Litigation and Health Care Costs and Shows that Most Compensated Injuries are Extremely Serious | www.newyorkinjuries.com

Myth 1: Medical malpractice litigation’s share of overall health care costs is crippling the system. Fact: Medical malpractice litigation’s share always has been minuscule, has fallen to the lowest level on record – less than 0.18 percent of all health costs. Even if one includes in the calculation the cost of all medical malpractice insurance premiums paid by doctors and hospitals, which premiums cover not only malpractice settlements, verdicts and the cost of litigation, but also insurance companies’ overhead and profits, the share is just 0.58 percent of all health costs.

Hey Old Rocks your a little behind the times on your info, that must explain why you use Old Rocks........FYI, Health Professionals, Dentist, Nurses, Hospitals & Nursing Homes, Health Services/HMOs, Pharmaceuticals / Health Products, Medical Supplies, Nutritional & Dietary Supplements and Pharmaceutical Manufacturing contributed a Grand Total of $166+ million in the '08 campaign cycle, with 54% going to Democrats and 46% to Republicans, rough math, that comes in at $67+ million LESS..... you need to check that Health Care Lobby money statement, you will probably look better without all over you....

Lets see, "According to the American Bar Association, there were 1,128,729 resident and active attorneys in the United States in 2006 and 1,143,358 in 2007. A small percentage of the increase (actual number 352) is due to American Somoa and Guam being added to the survey in 2007."

"Physicians and surgeons held about 661,400 jobs in 2008; approximately 12 percent were self-employed. About 53 percent of wage–and-salary physicians and surgeons worked in offices of physicians, and 19 percent were employed by hospitals. Others practiced in Federal, State, and local governments, educational services, and outpatient care centers."

Doctors / Physicians are roughly half of the current number of Lawyers??? WOW!!!! And your telling us that your worried about health care for everyone?????

"Chiropractors held about 49,100 jobs in 2008. Most chiropractors work in a solo practice, although some are in group practice or work for other chiropractors. A small number teach, conduct research at chiropractic institutions, or work in hospitals and clinics. Approximately 44 percent of chiropractors were self-employed."

Now we are up to roughly 710,500, still quit a bit behind the number of Lawyers, about 430,000......

"Dentists held about 141,900 jobs in 2008. Employment was distributed among general practitioners and specialists as follows:

Dentists, general 120,200
Orthodontists 7,700
Oral and maxillofacial surgeons 6,700
Prosthodontists 500
Dentists, all other specialists 6,900

Approximately 15 percent of all dentists were specialists. About 28 percent of dentists were self-employed and not incorporated. Very few salaried dentists worked in hospitals and offices of physicians. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association, about 3 out of 4 dentists in private practice are solo proprietors, and almost 15 percent belonged to a partnership."

"Optometrists held about 34,800 jobs in 2008. Salaried jobs for optometrists were primarily in offices of optometrists; offices of physicians, including ophthalmologists; and health and personal care stores, including optical goods stores. A few salaried jobs for optometrists were in hospitals, the Federal Government, or outpatient care centers, including health maintenance organizations. About 25 percent of optometrists are self-employed. According to a 2008 survey by the American Optometric Association, most self-employed optometrists worked in private practice or in partnership with other healthcare professionals. A small number worked for optical chains or franchises or as independent contractors."

"Physician assistants held about 74,800 jobs in 2008. The number of jobs is greater than the number of practicing PAs because some hold two or more jobs. For example, some PAs work with a supervising physician but also work in another healthcare facility. According to the American Academy of Physician Assistants, about 15 percent of actively practicing PAs worked in more than one clinical job concurrently in 2008."

"Podiatrists held about 12,200 jobs in 2008. About 19 percent of podiatrists were self-employed. Most podiatrists were solo practitioners, although more are entering group practices with other podiatrists or other health practitioners. Solo practitioners were either unincorporated self-employed workers or incorporated wage and salary workers in offices of other health practitioners. Other podiatrists were employed by hospitals and the Federal Government."

"As the largest healthcare occupation, registered nurses held about 2.6 million jobs in 2008. Hospitals employed the majority of RNs, with 60 percent of such jobs. About 8 percent of jobs were in offices of physicians, 5 percent in home healthcare services, 5 percent in nursing care facilities, and 3 percent in employment services. The remainder worked mostly in government agencies, social assistance agencies, and educational services."

Now we are at a Grand Total of 3,574,200 Health Care Professionals and we haven't even included Hospitals & Nursing Homes, Health Services/HMOs, Pharmaceuticals / Health Products, Medical Supplies, Nutritional & Dietary Supplements and Pharmaceutical Manufacturing employees.......

If your still not convinced here are the supporting links;

Health: Long-Term Contribution Trends | OpenSecrets

Physicians and Surgeons

The High Cost of Medical Malpractice
By Diana Furchtgott-Roth

The next time you visit your doctor, scrutinize the bill carefully. What it won't tell you is that about ten cents of every dollar paid for health care goes to the malpractice insurance doctors must have to protect themselves in case patients sue them.

Malpractice premiums cost doctors tens of thousands of dollars a year, not because an individual doctor has a history of making mistakes, but because in some states juries make excessively generous awards, knowing that insurance companies will pay.

Medical specialties with the highest premiums include obstetrics and anesthesiology. Insurance premiums for some doctors in high-cost states can reach $200,000 per year, whereas premiums in low-cost states are closer to $20,000 annually. Resolving a suit takes at least three years, distracting physicians' efforts from the practice of medicine.

As for myself, I have been sued for something that was not my fault, it started out at $250,000 and two and a half years later was settled for $2,500, guess who made the money on this one? If you guessed the Lawyers you where correct, btw the plaintiff admitted in his deposition he was intoxicated, what a fucking sham, one more thing it cost you too, just indirectly......

I think that Rock might be attached to your shoulders and represent your head/brain on this issue......

If you want to continue to believe in that blog be my guest, I will stick to the numbers.....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The lazy want to follow, the real working class wants to pay their own way and the liberal left really has NO grasp of what makes America great and very different from Canada, UK, France and so on....

The idiot(s) that the left and independents elected last year have not had an original thought or idea since they where potty trained.....No they would rather try to copy a health care system(s) that EVERYONE knows are utter failures.....

GWV5903

So many try to claim that malpractice only adds 10% to our HC cost.....then why did Lawyers/Law Firms contribute $233+ million in the '...

Wow! What a crock of smelly shit gift wrapped in hysteria and alarmist bullshit. clap, clap, clap...

The working class has been fighting for decades to keep conservatives from getting their grubby hands on medicare and SS monies. The conservative nitwits warned against SS when it was enacted way back in the 40s.

You are so far out in right field you may as well be sitting in the bleachers.

Wall steet gurus and Bush fiscal appointees are part of Obama's team....now suddenly they are all socialist dupes because your head is so far up your ass you see daylight?

lol okay....cuckoo

 

[Yukon]

Anyone who has half a brain in Britain goes private... they don't use the NHS unless they can't afford insurance... because it's crap.

....what about California women with 1/4 of a brain....were do they go ?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

...........

WTF are you yapping about? You sound like a little Yorkshire Terrier on steroids.

Nobody has proposed copying the British health care system where the government owns docs and hospitals. We are talking health insurance here.

Did yo even bother to read up on the link provided for 5 Capitalist Democracies? Shooting your mouth off when you have no fuckin' idea about things is getting on my nerves.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

"Affordable Health Insurance" is what they now call it....not Universal Health Care. Plus they now say that "96% of Americans will be covered under this health plan" which also removes the universal aspect of it. Millions are still being left out of the loop.

Progress will take time.

Same arguments were made against medicare.

Demonizing other nation's attempts at dealing with health care masks empty arguments based on data, true ideals and honesty...to say nothing of a critical analysis of the current system the GOP keeps throwing wrenches in

 

[GWV5903]

The lazy want to follow, the real working class wants to pay their own way and the liberal left really has NO grasp of what makes America great and very different from Canada, UK, France and so on....

The idiot(s) that the left and independents elected last year have not had an original thought or idea since they where potty trained.....No they would rather try to copy a health care system(s) that EVERYONE knows are utter failures.....

GWV5903

So many try to claim that malpractice only adds 10% to our HC cost.....then why did Lawyers/Law Firms contribute $233+ million in the '...

Wow! What a crock of smelly shit gift wrapped in hysteria and alarmist bullshit. clap, clap, clap...

Really, when you skip the facts and sink your head shoulder deep into your ass I can see how your clueless....

The working class has been fighting for decades to keep conservatives from getting their grubby hands on medicare and SS monies. The conservative nitwits warned against SS when it was enacted way back in the 40s.

Boy your getting really good at revisionist history writing, you wouldn't happen to be in a labor union?

You are so far out in right field you may as well be sitting in the bleachers.

Yeah, I am watching DUMBASSES such as yourself electing the far Liberal Left to office, it is hilarious your so blind.....

Wall steet gurus and Bush fiscal appointees are part of Obama's team....now suddenly they are all socialist dupes because your head is so far up your ass you see daylight?

Wall Street gurus and Bush fiscal appointees are part of Obama's team??? It's too early to be drinking, but have at it, lush......

lol okay....cuckoo

Merry Christmas!!!!!

 

[Immanuel]

Because our government is corrupt and totally incapable of running a social program that successfully and efficiently provides for those it intends to help.

Immie

Our government is NOT currupt. It is reflective of the voting public. The GOP has done what terrorists and rebels do when trying to destabilize nations they cannot win over with ideas....disruption, destruction, deceit, deception, all intended to make dupes like you say it is the government that is at fault.

Well I choose to blame people for their actions and not follow the words of partisan communication experts.

The Social Security program is run very well. The funding is at issue as it has always been...but ALL the millions of checks go out on time and all the people signing up get what they should. Medicare works too. When was the last time you heard of a patient insured by medicare being denied treatment for the things private insurers routinely deny paying customers for?

Take the profit out of health insurance and you will cut the costs of health care to managed able levels.

Nonsense!

In fact, Pure liberal BULLSHIT!

Our government is not corrupt! Bullshit!! This bill has only been proposed because Congress is corrupt. If they were not so corrupt we would not be discussing it at all.

Social Security funding is the issue? Let's see, I suspect that you think that increase the tax from 6.2% to 25.3% of wages and eliminating the salary cap all together would be sufficient.

Also, one of the problems with Social Security is that the government has commingled the funds with the General Funds and now our Great Grandchildren have to pay for our own failures.

Another problem with Social Security, is that people have to put so much money into the system and get jack shit in return... if they live long enough. If they don't live long enough, they and their family lose everything.

A third problem with Social Security is the poor investment management of the funds. T-Bills (government IOUs) are simply not realistic by themselves to provide a return on the funds especially when T-Bills don't even keep up with inflation.

Immie

 

[PoliticalChic]

...........

WTF are you yapping about? You sound like a little Yorkshire Terrier on steroids.

Nobody has proposed copying the British health care system where the government owns docs and hospitals. We are talking health insurance here.

Did yo even bother to read up on the link provided for 5 Capitalist Democracies? Shooting your mouth off when you have no fuckin' idea about things is getting on my nerves.

"The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries...."

Try putting the link in context.

And calm down, you're spitting on the keyboard again.

 

[Samson]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

Why do the conservatives always ignore that what Americans want and will do is make their own way and not copy a system from others?

Why does the GOP have so little respect for American ingenuity when it comes to figuring out a way around the health care crisis even they admit is real?

Here is how 5 Capitalist Democracies have dealt with health care. Maybe we can pick and choose things from them and stay away from mistakes made and stop trying to say as the GOP does, that we should re-invent the wheel?

I'll attempt to read between the lines of your typically partisan blather.

I suppose you don't want to discuss Taiwan or Japan, because their systems are in the red. Of course, the entire population of Japan is aging at a rate that will make it improbable for a majority of the population NOT to be hospitalized within the next decade.

But even you probably know USA is different than Japan.

You might even be aware that it is also vastly different than Switzerland?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

Why do the conservatives always ignore that what Americans want and will do is make their own way and not copy a system from others?

Why does the GOP have so little respect for American ingenuity when it comes to figuring out a way around the health care crisis even they admit is real?

Because Canada's system is fubarred about as bad as England's.

Then why do you guys keep mentioning all these other countries and why we should be like them?

We have a lot of respect for Americans far beyond just their ingenuity. There could have been 50 individual experiments on this problem, but the federal government decided to try just one. Then when they couldn't make a reasonable plan that saved money, they came up with this bastardization. Ignoring waht Americans told them they didn't want by the way.

Most Americans want a public option. You're right, the Senate bill is ignoring that.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

.....

Hey shit talker...I voted twice.....against Obama.

call me when you put down the koolaid and get out of detox

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

Why do the conservatives always ignore that what Americans want and will do is make their own way and not copy a system from others?

Why does the GOP have so little respect for American ingenuity when it comes to figuring out a way around the health care crisis even they admit is real?

Here is how 5 Capitalist Democracies have dealt with health care. Maybe we can pick and choose things from them and stay away from mistakes made and stop trying to say as the GOP does, that we should re-invent the wheel?

I'll attempt to read between the lines of your typically partisan blather.

I suppose you don't want to discuss Taiwan or Japan, because their systems are in the red. Of course, the entire population of Japan is aging at a rate that will make it improbable for a majority of the population NOT to be hospitalized within the next decade.

But even you probably know USA is different than Japan.

You might even be aware that it is also vastly different than Switzerland?

I have no idea what Japan's aging population has to do with things.

What I have suggested in the past is looking....not copying....looking at thw systems in other capitalist democracies.

Why reinvent the wheel and why on the name of gawd do we keep to the piece of shit system we have?

The right is just being contrary...contrary to anything the Dems, Obama or wven moderate to liberal Republicans propose. all this while they offer crap and stick with the corrupt system of the for profit health insurance industry.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Because our government is corrupt and totally incapable of running a social program that successfully and efficiently provides for those it intends to help.

Immie

Our government is NOT currupt. It is reflective of the voting public. The GOP has done what terrorists and rebels do when trying to destabilize nations they cannot win over with ideas....disruption, destruction, deceit, deception, all intended to make dupes like you say it is the government that is at fault.

Well I choose to blame people for their actions and not follow the words of partisan communication experts.

The Social Security program is run very well. The funding is at issue as it has always been...but ALL the millions of checks go out on time and all the people signing up get what they should. Medicare works too. When was the last time you heard of a patient insured by medicare being denied treatment for the things private insurers routinely deny paying customers for?

Take the profit out of health insurance and you will cut the costs of health care to managed able levels.

Nonsense! In fact, Pure liberal BULLSHIT! Our government is not corrupt! Bullshit!! This bill has only been proposed because Congress is corrupt. If they were not so corrupt we would not be discussing it at all.

your lack of logic here is nothing short of astounding. you ought to have a radio show where you can rant your nonsense into dead air

Social Security funding is the issue? Let's see, I suspect that you think that increase the tax from 6.2% to 25.3% of wages and eliminating the salary cap all together would be sufficient.

Also, one of the problems with Social Security is that the government has commingled the funds with the General Funds and now our Great Grandchildren have to pay for our own failures.

Every generation has been paying for the one before it. Stop being silly.

And why shouldn't children be asked to pay for their parents or grandparents?

 

[Samson]

Why reinvent the wheel and why on the name of gawd do we keep to the piece of shit system we have?.

The system that we have could be cured by tort reform.

The system that we have cannot pay for itself.

The system that we have depends on a growing economy.

The system that we have does a horrid job of regulating its spending.

Still, I'm willing to support SOMETHING, for christssakes:

For example, I'm able to remove a maximum $2,500 from my paycheck, pretax, to pay for health costs. Why am I limited to only $2,500? Why not allow me $10,000? Why not simply let me keep my money and find my own goddamn insurance?