house gop won't cut defense spending but is aiming to end PBS and slash pell grants

[Liability]

A debate that has a long history.

Does the Constitution provide ENUMERATED powers only to Congress, or do the Commerce Clause and the so-called "elastic clause" somehow transcend the enumerated powers?

The T provides the Constitutional FIRST clue:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Notably absent from that litany of enumerated powers is the Power to Prescribe the Educational Requirements for the Children of our Republic.

The history of Congress involving itself in "Education" is interesting.

Here's a quickie way to get started in researching it. The Constitution and Federal Jurisdiction in American Education

More to follow in next post here.

 

[Liability]

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION

No general congressional authority over education has ever been a part of the Constitution. Several attempts, however, were made during the Constitutional Convention of 1787 to give Congress educational powers. On May 29th Mr. Charles Pinckney presented his draft of a federal government which provided that the legislature of the United States shall have the power "to establish and provide for a national university at the seat of government of the United States." When the committee, which considered the matter reported their constitutional draft on August 6, they completely excluded this particular provision.17 During the Convention on August 18, James Madison and others proposed several items to be included within the legislative power of the United States, including the power:

-To secure to literary authors their copyrights for a limited time.
-To establish a university.
-To encourage by proper premiums and provisions, the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries.
-To establish seminaries for the promotion of literature, and the arts and sciences.
-To grant patents for useful inventions.
-To establish public institutions, rewards, and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, commerce, trades and manufactures.

Madison drew a distinction between a national university, seminaries for the promotion of literature, arts and sciences, and other public educational institutions. A national university implied a university which taught all branches of learning, owned and/or operated by the federal government. Seminaries referred to any school, academy, college, or university, in which young persons were instructed in several disciplines, including theology. It did not merely connote a school of theology as it does today. After considering these provisions, they were rejected. Only the patent and copyright provisions were found among the national legislature's authority when the matter was reported out of Committee.18

On September 12, 1787 the "Committee of Stile and Arrangement" reported a Constitution which, apart from a few changes, became the present Constitution less amendments. That version contained no specific, enumerated, or expressed power in Congress to legislate concerning education, nor did it provide for Congressional encouragement of education or the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries, directly or indirectly.19

On September 14, Mr. Madison and Mr. Pinckney, during debates on the submitted draft, moved once again to vest Congress with power "to establish an University, in which no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion."20 The proposal was again lost on the Convention as a whole. On September 17 the Constitution, void of congressional power over education, was ratified. Almost a year later on June 21, 1788, the ninth state ratified the Constitution. On April 30, 1789, General George Washington was inaugurated as President of the United States.21

It is certain that Congress was denied the power to establish a national university. The establishment of seminaries promoting literature, arts and sciences was also denied Congress' jurisdictional sweep, as well as establishment of other public educational institutions. The only encouragement and advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries granted to Congress was the exception of the patent and copyright provisions of Article I, Section 8, Clause 8.22 It was wisely considered that the federal government should have no greater constitutional power to encourage education among the several states beyond this particular enumerated object. If the specific power was not enumerated in Congress, Congress failed to obtain it. The Tenth Amendment ratified in 1791 reaffirmed this well known principle.23

Thus, when Washington came to office, the only real question regarding education was whether Congress, acting like a State pursuant to its Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 powers over the District of Columbia alone, could establish a national university within the exclusive geographical confines of the District of Columbia, and whether Congress could constitutionally appropriate movies from the federal treasury for such a purpose.24 As a practical matter, "education was left where it had always been, in the hands of the states or of the people." 25

-- The Constitution and Federal Jurisdiction in American Education

The footnotes are worth looking over, too:

17. Documents Illustrative of the Formation of the Union of the American States, 69th Gong., 1st sess., House Document No. 398 (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1927), 119, 471-82. Jonathan Elliot, comp., The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Constitution, 5 vols. (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Co., 1891), 1:147 & 226.
18. Documents Illustrative, supra note 17, at 563-64. Elliot, Debates, supra note 17, at 1:247.
19. Documents Illustrative, supra note 17, at 702-12. Elliot, Debates, supra note 17, at 1:297.
20. Documents Illustrative, supra note 17, at 725. Mr. Gov. Morris noted in response to Madison, that he was of the opinion that : "It is not necessary. The exclusive power at the Seat of Government, will reach the object." Id.
21. Documents Illustrative, supra note 17, at 1024.
22. U.S., Constitution, art. I, sec. 8, cl. 8 supra note 11.
23. For instance, when the Delegates of the people of Virginia ratified the Constitution, they did so with the understanding that "the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will:" Documents Illustrative, supra note 17, at 1027.
24. U.S., Constitution, art. I, sec. 8, cl. 17, supra note 11. U.S., Constitution, art. I, sec. 9, cl. 7 states in part: "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequences of Appropriations made by Law . . . ."
25. B. A. Hinsdale, comp., U.S. Office of Education, Documents Illustrative of American Educational History, 53d Cong., 2d sess., 1892-93, House ex. doc. 1, pt. 5, 2 vols. (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1895, Library of American Civilization 10588), 2:1293-94. See also U.S., Constitution, amend. X, supra note 2.

-- Id.

 

[Liability]

Thus the Article I, Section 8 "general welfare clause" in no way included any Congressional power over education. This power was specifically rejected at the Convention as indicated,129 and cannot be magically resurrected by the disparagement of that clause for the purposes of federal expediency. Congress may have either been negligent or guilty of malfeasance, but it is unlikely to have made a mistake in passing such an unconstitutional Act.

-- The Constitution and Federal Jurisdiction in American Education

 

[Liability]

Thus the Article I, Section 8 "general welfare clause" in no way included any Congressional power over education. This power was specifically rejected at the Convention as indicated,129 and cannot be magically resurrected by the disparagement of that clause for the purposes of federal expediency. Congress may have either been negligent or guilty of malfeasance, but it is unlikely to have made a mistake in passing such an unconstitutional Act.

-- The Constitution and Federal Jurisdiction in American Education . [My emphasis added.]

 

[blu]

PBS annual costs are less than 1 weeks cost of Iraq.

However? PBS is a biased Gubmint Mouthpiece and should be defunded ASAP. It's a dinosaur with the tech available now.

please tell me you are kidding... are you thinking of NPR?

 

[Uncensored2008]

i know education is anathema to you. that's pretty clear.

but do you understand the meaning of the term "general welfare"? or do you need some help with that?

What is it that you think it means?

AFDC?

SSI?

Why do YOU think Monroe failed to establish a food stamps program?

 

[The Infidel]

LOL

House GOP Chairman outlines sweeping spending cuts - Yahoo! News

they keep getting dumber and dumber. I can't wait for them to laughed out of the chambers. fucking democrats in disguise

Nothing new here...they want to keep Americans stupid and unemployable.

Ummm... that would be the Democrat agenda.

 

[Defiant1]

they keep getting dumber and dumber. I can't wait for them to laughed out of the chambers. fucking democrats in disguise

In a world of 800 channels, WHAT role does PBS play?

its documentaries are some of the most famous ones ever to be released. carl sagans the cosmos to start with. also educational shows like sesame street are the main focus of its time slots when kids are actively watching TV

So why do I have to pay so you can watch TV?

 

[Uncensored2008]

its a deflection b/c no one is talking about keith oblermann but you brought him up to make a stupid point.

You lefties were talking about lowering the intellect of people - naturally I turned to Olbermann.

I mean, look what he's done in your case....

 

[The Infidel]

the neocons aren't even being transparent anymore. billions more to defense contractors while cutting out all education for disadvantaged people so eventually they join the military out of despair

Tell us where Education is in the Constitution...and we will go from there.

i know education is anathema to you. that's pretty clear.

but do you understand the meaning of the term "general welfare"? or do you need some help with that?

Why do you guys continue to perpetuate the myth that it is MY resposiblity to make sure idiots take advantage of the American system? We all have the same oppurtunity to better ourselves. We all have the same rights to go out and get an education.
Dont EVEN say that we dont, because you would be lying.
Some folks like to be victims, and some dont do ANYTHING to better themselves.... why is this my fault?

General welfare.... dont you mean plain old "welfare"? Thats all some are interested in.... what can your country do for you (me, myself, and I) not what can you do for your country.

Right????

 

[Meister]

Somewhere...somehow our government is going to have to cut back on the spending. I have a feeling that when all said and done, no one is going to be happy about it. But, we can not continue this path we're on.

 

[The T]

Somewhere...somehow our government is going to have to cut back on the spending. I have a feeling that when all said and done, no one is going to be happy about it. But, we can not continue this path we're on.

That's just it. Private citizens and businesses have done as much if not more. It's now time for Government to do the same if not more if they are to live up to the tenants of this Republic.

They too must justify themselves. So far they have done a very poor job.

 

[old navy]

Spending on the Constitution's number one mandate is good. Defense. Defense. Defense.

Too much Pell money and government loans are going to University of Phoenix students who help in that institution's graduation rate of barely over 30 percent. They don't have and will not get a job and will not pay back the loans that the Pell grant did not cover.

No need to end PBS. Just stop the taxpayer support and have them get by on their other funding sources.

and suddenly a sheep appears

More of a sheepdog. I stood watch for lots of years maintaining your right to blather on.

 

[blu]

Spending on the Constitution's number one mandate is good. Defense. Defense. Defense.

Too much Pell money and government loans are going to University of Phoenix students who help in that institution's graduation rate of barely over 30 percent. They don't have and will not get a job and will not pay back the loans that the Pell grant did not cover.

No need to end PBS. Just stop the taxpayer support and have them get by on their other funding sources.

and suddenly a sheep appears

More of a sheepdog. I stood watch for lots of years maintaining your right to blather on.

unless you are WWII vet you did nothing of the sort

 

[uscitizen]

Then PBS will have zero trouble getting subscribers as a private network.

A childishly pithy response.

hes already on ignore.

sounds like a good idea.

 

[old navy]

Spending on the Constitution's number one mandate is good. Defense. Defense. Defense.

Too much Pell money and government loans are going to University of Phoenix students who help in that institution's graduation rate of barely over 30 percent. They don't have and will not get a job and will not pay back the loans that the Pell grant did not cover.

No need to end PBS. Just stop the taxpayer support and have them get by on their other funding sources.

You're right, only rich kids should have the opportunity to have a higher education.

No where did I write anything about rich kids or denying poor kids. Research a little on where my tax dollars for Pell grants are going. Big waste. I teach in the most diverse high school in my district. A big part of my job is career and college preparation. I bust my tail for non-rich kids every day. Your clappy hands thing makes me embarrassed for you.

 

[uscitizen]

In a world of 800 channels, WHAT role does PBS play?

its documentaries are some of the most famous ones ever to be released. carl sagans the cosmos to start with. also educational shows like sesame street are the main focus of its time slots when kids are actively watching TV

So why do I have to pay so you can watch TV?

the same reason I have to pay so our govt can kill hundreds of thousands over a bogus reason.

 

[kiwiman127]

Somewhere...somehow our government is going to have to cut back on the spending. I have a feeling that when all said and done, no one is going to be happy about it. But, we can not continue this path we're on.

That's just it. Private citizens and businesses have done as much if not more. It's now time for Government to do the same if not more if they are to live up to the tenants of this Republic.

They too must justify themselves. So far they have done a very poor job.

Robert Gates wants to cut $100 million in defense spending, does everyone think it'll be done or will Congress stop him?

 

[old navy]

and suddenly a sheep appears

More of a sheepdog. I stood watch for lots of years maintaining your right to blather on.

unless you are WWII vet you did nothing of the sort

and the blathering continues

 

[Liability]

Every once in a while, we hear about the military spending $500 on toilet seats (not some special kind needed for unusual plumbing on experimental craft, either) or $800.00 each for regular old screwdrivers bought in bulk. After a while, one necessarily comes to the conclusion that if there isn't outright theft and corruption in the procurement process, there is woefully inadequate oversight and accounting taking place.

Can wasteful spending in the military be cut? Obviously.

And then there are other options. Like MAYBE (and I realize it's a pipe dream for some reason) but POSSIBLY we could -- stay with me here -- say "ok. World War II is actually over. We're pulling our troops out of Japan and Germany."

Yeah yeah. It may not be a simple as it sounds. They still have some strategic value merely by being there. But if we are attempting to analyze costs and how to cut those costs, then maybe we need to seriously get down to the business of having that discussion.

Maybe we SHOULD be spending lots on R&D. But maybe we don't need as many fighter/bombers as we have.

Maybe we can deploy a Strategic Missile Defense (star wars type) system for the threat of some possible future nuclear missile attack, even if it's expensive as hell, but we can do without troop deployments in Eastern Buttfuckslovia.

Several of us have said it before: Let's agree to put everything on the table. There may be no ultimate agreement on major things, but there should be some ways to save lots of money even within the defense budget. No sacred cows: Everything should be at least subject to debate.