CDZ Homestead Acts, how to think about them?

[Toronado3800]

This one sends me in a few logic circles.

In recent months I have taken to consider the Homestead Act to be an ingenious method of using big government to colonize the American West.

A quick glance at combat casualties by war lists on Wikipedia make a combined Indian Wars category of the 19th Century to be more deadly than the Mexican American War, the Spanish American War or the War of 1812. United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia That's every sizable military conflict we were in that century besides the Civil War.

In terms of size of the project..

Years ago I was amazed the Union Pacific still employees soo many real estate agents selling off land it was granted as part of the transcontinental railroad project. Then watching some Pa Ingalls reruns I started to think about Homesteading and was further amazed at the size of the project.

Now I'm not criticizing it in this post, Manifest Destiny, the Genocide of Native Americans, those are other topics to be debated elsewhere. What I'm saying is the Homestead Act and similar Acts were great giant government project involving not just grants of a continent's worth of land but the 2nd largest use of our military of the century.

In other words it was one heck of a big government project and when talking about the good ol days we should think of the 1800's as the century of big government.

 

[Moonglow]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

 

[william the wie]

Nothing to disagree on with your position.

 

[kaz]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

Government NOT owning land is socialism???



Have you ever considered that snarky would be more effective if it was more tied to an actual logical point?

 

[Picaro]

One of the great swindles in American history. It was more than just land, it was also mineral rights, water rights, as well, given away to big corporations for nothing, and when you do your body counts be sure to include the Civil War body counts as well, since it was fought over such corporate welfare. Federal royalties from just the Cripple Creek gold field, loaned out at 2.5% and compounded, would cover our entire annual Federal debt today, with plenty left over. At 5% it would also go on to cover an annual $40 K a year income for every American family as well, on top of the yearly spending.

 

[SeaGal]

...Now I'm not criticizing it in this post, Manifest Destiny, the Genocide of Native Americans, those are other topics to be debated elsewhere. What I'm saying is the Homestead Act and similar Acts were great giant government project involving not just grants of a continent's worth of land but the 2nd largest use of our military of the century.

In other words it was one heck of a big government project and when talking about the good ol days we should think of the 1800's as the century of big government.

It was a time of the government doing what it was designed to do regarding 'immigration' and use of the military. Big government isn't opening up 'public' land for settlement and use - big government is closing off public land to settlement and use. The land was given, true - but it came with the caveat of do or die, not welfare, medicaid and food stamps - safety nets had not yet been woven.

https://www.blm.gov/or/landsrealty/homestead150/files/HomesteadingFactSheet_2012.pdf

 

[Disir]

This one sends me in a few logic circles.

In recent months I have taken to consider the Homestead Act to be an ingenious method of using big government to colonize the American West.

A quick glance at combat casualties by war lists on Wikipedia make a combined Indian Wars category of the 19th Century to be more deadly than the Mexican American War, the Spanish American War or the War of 1812. United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia That's every sizable military conflict we were in that century besides the Civil War.

In terms of size of the project..

Years ago I was amazed the Union Pacific still employees soo many real estate agents selling off land it was granted as part of the transcontinental railroad project. Then watching some Pa Ingalls reruns I started to think about Homesteading and was further amazed at the size of the project.

Now I'm not criticizing it in this post, Manifest Destiny, the Genocide of Native Americans, those are other topics to be debated elsewhere. What I'm saying is the Homestead Act and similar Acts were great giant government project involving not just grants of a continent's worth of land but the 2nd largest use of our military of the century.

In other words it was one heck of a big government project and when talking about the good ol days we should think of the 1800's as the century of big government.

Yes. And it solved a few problems. The Roman Empire, at one point, allotted land far enough away to 1) pay for service. 2) prohibit insurrections in Rome proper and 3) utilize those trained to protect the area.
The Founders would have been aware of that. However, England's military service was based on class/status. There were complaints at the time of the Revolutionary War that the folks were coming from the bottom. And they were. Many didn't care who the hell won they just wanted upward mobility and some work.
http://www.gcisd-k12.org/cms/lib/TX01000829/Centricity/Domain/970/G Washington Dipatch 1157.pdf

So, one of the thoughts that has crossed my mind is that land would create upward social mobility.

 

[kaz]

One of the great swindles in American history. It was more than just land, it was also mineral rights, water rights, as well, given away to big corporations for nothing, and when you do your body counts be sure to include the Civil War body counts as well, since it was fought over such corporate welfare. Federal royalties from just the Cripple Creek gold field, loaned out at 2.5% and compounded, would cover our entire annual Federal debt today, with plenty left over. At 5% it would also go on to cover an annual $40 K a year income for every American family as well, on top of the yearly spending.

What big corporations got all this land in the Homestead act?

 

[kaz]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

All those farmers who got 160 acres cheaply, yes, that's how Andrew Carnegie and JP Morgan became so rich

 

[Picaro]

...Now I'm not criticizing it in this post, Manifest Destiny, the Genocide of Native Americans, those are other topics to be debated elsewhere. What I'm saying is the Homestead Act and similar Acts were great giant government project involving not just grants of a continent's worth of land but the 2nd largest use of our military of the century.

In other words it was one heck of a big government project and when talking about the good ol days we should think of the 1800's as the century of big government.

It was a time of the government doing what it was designed to do regarding 'immigration' and use of the military. Big government isn't opening up 'public' land for settlement and use - big government is closing off public land to settlement and use. The land was given, true - but it came with the caveat of do or die, not welfare, medicaid and food stamps - safety nets had not yet been woven.

https://www.blm.gov/or/landsrealty/homestead150/files/HomesteadingFactSheet_2012.pdf

Actually it was a scam. First, it merely allowed mining companies to pick up Federal lands for next to nothing, and it's main purpose was to provide customers for railroads and promote sales of town lots. Any of it that had any values was already 'claimed' ahead of time, via fake 'homesteaders' filing claims, and then turning over the claims to speculators. Almost none of it stayed in the hands of the original 'homesteaders'. See the average price of Federal land before the Civil War versus the 'fees for homesteading, and you can see the massive loss in revenues inflicted on the govt., and why so many railroads and bankers and mining companies were so intent on passing the 'Homestead' Acts, and even started a war to get them passed. It was a huge windfall for them, at the expense of the public.

 

[harmonica]

...the military was not used just for the Homestead Acts to fight NAs...they were fighting the NAs since before the Revolution
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1187.html
is your casualty list post 1862?

 

[SeaGal]

It was a time of the government doing what it was designed to do regarding 'immigration' and use of the military. Big government isn't opening up 'public' land for settlement and use - big government is closing off public land to settlement and use. The land was given, true - but it came with the caveat of do or die, not welfare, medicaid and food stamps - safety nets had not yet been woven.

https://www.blm.gov/or/landsrealty/homestead150/files/HomesteadingFactSheet_2012.pdf

Actually it was a scam. First, it merely allowed mining companies to pick up Federal lands for next to nothing, and it's main purpose was to provide customers for railroads and promote sales of town lots. Any of it that had any values was already 'claimed' ahead of time, via fake 'homesteaders' filing claims, and then turning over the claims to speculators. Almost none of it stayed in the hands of the original 'homesteaders'. See the average price of Federal land before the Civil War versus the 'fees for homesteading, and you can see the massive loss in revenues inflicted on the govt., and why so many railroads and bankers and mining companies were so intent on passing the 'Homestead' Acts, and even started a war to get them passed. It was a huge windfall for them, at the expense of the public.

In other words, the first in a long line of leftists 'populous' dreams 'gone wrong' with 'intended' consequences?

There's always more to the story, of course.
The Homestead Act of 1862

 

[Picaro]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

All those farmers who got 160 acres cheaply, yes, that's how Andrew Carnegie and JP Morgan became so rich

Both got rich plundering publicly subsidized railroads, so yes, they benefited from the Homestead Act scam as well, Carnegie by selling rails to over-extended railroad companies and Morgan by loading them down with massive debts. Carnegie got rich first in railroading, as a secretary to Tom Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad. His first 'investments' were in the stocks of car building companies that over-charged the railroad in sweet-heart deals put together by the company's executives, like his boss. Most executives didn't make their big money by running the company, they made it by selling the company a lot of over-priced supplies.

 

[Picaro]

It was a time of the government doing what it was designed to do regarding 'immigration' and use of the military. Big government isn't opening up 'public' land for settlement and use - big government is closing off public land to settlement and use. The land was given, true - but it came with the caveat of do or die, not welfare, medicaid and food stamps - safety nets had not yet been woven.

https://www.blm.gov/or/landsrealty/homestead150/files/HomesteadingFactSheet_2012.pdf

Actually it was a scam. First, it merely allowed mining companies to pick up Federal lands for next to nothing, and it's main purpose was to provide customers for railroads and promote sales of town lots. Any of it that had any values was already 'claimed' ahead of time, via fake 'homesteaders' filing claims, and then turning over the claims to speculators. Almost none of it stayed in the hands of the original 'homesteaders'. See the average price of Federal land before the Civil War versus the 'fees for homesteading, and you can see the massive loss in revenues inflicted on the govt., and why so many railroads and bankers and mining companies were so intent on passing the 'Homestead' Acts, and even started a war to get them passed. It was a huge windfall for them, at the expense of the public.

In other words, the first in a long line of leftists 'populous' dreams 'gone wrong' with 'intended' consequences?

There's always more to the story, of course.
The Homestead Act of 1862

Less than a third of the grants ever made it through the time allotted to complete the terms, and of those a huge number were fronts for companies, or acquired by speculators. It was marketed as a 'populist dream', but it was in fact promoted by by railroads, banks, mining companies, cattle companies, and Wall Street speculators in all of them. It's absurd to believe poor people could ever take advantage of the Acts, and few did. There were a few 'success stories', but those were few, but of course the most widely spread tales.

There was a reason the Railroad Acts were just as necessary and the two Acts went hand in hand. The first Railroad grants in Michigan and Illinois in the late 1840's and early 1850's spurred a flurry of bribery and land speculation, and with plenty of starving diseased immigrants to exploit at the polls, it was a great and very lucrative time to be a politician.

 

[kaz]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

All those farmers who got 160 acres cheaply, yes, that's how Andrew Carnegie and JP Morgan became so rich

Both got rich plundering publicly subsidized railroads, so yes, they benefited from the Homestead Act scam as well, Carnegie by selling rails to over-extended railroad companies and Morgan by loading them down with massive debts. Carnegie got rich first in railroading, as a secretary to Tom Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad. His first 'investments' were in the stocks of car building companies that over-charged the railroad in sweet-heart deals put together by the company's executives, like his boss. Most executives didn't make their big money by running the company, they made it by selling the company a lot of over-priced supplies.

Railroads were build under the homestead act?

Gotcha Karl. You don't know what you're talking about. The Homestead Act gave farmers 160 acres for practically nothing. The rest you're just making up

 

[Picaro]

Nothing to disagree on with your position.

Doing away with the revenue from land sales meant creating other sources of income, like the income tax, and the extremely high tariffs that along with the Homestead and Railroad Acts made it worth starting a war for the beneficiaries of the Acts and the main recipients of the money raised.

 

[Picaro]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

All those farmers who got 160 acres cheaply, yes, that's how Andrew Carnegie and JP Morgan became so rich

Both got rich plundering publicly subsidized railroads, so yes, they benefited from the Homestead Act scam as well, Carnegie by selling rails to over-extended railroad companies and Morgan by loading them down with massive debts. Carnegie got rich first in railroading, as a secretary to Tom Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad. His first 'investments' were in the stocks of car building companies that over-charged the railroad in sweet-heart deals put together by the company's executives, like his boss. Most executives didn't make their big money by running the company, they made it by selling the company a lot of over-priced supplies.

WTF? Railroads were build under the homestead act?

Gotcha Karl. You don't know what you're talking about. The Homestead Act gave farmers 160 acres for practically nothing. The rest you're just pulling out of your ass.

Spare us the idiotic commentaries; try reading a book once in while. You 're just proving your ignorance here, as usual.

 

[kaz]

Nothing to disagree on with your position.

Doing away with the revenue from land sales meant creating other sources of income, like the income tax, and the extremely high tariffs that along with the Homestead and Railroad Acts made it worth starting a war for the beneficiaries of the Acts and the main recipients of the money raised.

The income tax was related to massive increases in spending, not the Homestead act. Why does it kill you that Americans shouldn't have to buy open space from the Federal government as if the Federal government rightly owns all land?

 

[kaz]

It was an era of great socialism for the common man and the rich ones....

All those farmers who got 160 acres cheaply, yes, that's how Andrew Carnegie and JP Morgan became so rich

Both got rich plundering publicly subsidized railroads, so yes, they benefited from the Homestead Act scam as well, Carnegie by selling rails to over-extended railroad companies and Morgan by loading them down with massive debts. Carnegie got rich first in railroading, as a secretary to Tom Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad. His first 'investments' were in the stocks of car building companies that over-charged the railroad in sweet-heart deals put together by the company's executives, like his boss. Most executives didn't make their big money by running the company, they made it by selling the company a lot of over-priced supplies.

WTF? Railroads were build under the homestead act?

Gotcha Karl. You don't know what you're talking about. The Homestead Act gave farmers 160 acres for practically nothing. The rest you're just pulling out of your ass.

Spare us the idiotic commentaries; try reading a book once in while. You 're just proving your ignorance here, as usual.

Maybe you could provide some links for your wild claims then. The Homestead acts were about getting farmers to move west. More research isn't going to show me the ridiculous Marxist crap you're making up about how government owns all land and land rights, not citizens. We created government to protect our rights. Government did not create us

 

[Picaro]

...the military was not used just for the Homestead Acts to fight NAs...they were fighting the NAs since before the Revolution
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1187.html
is your casualty list post 1862?

It's yet another one of the 'progressives'' cognitively dissonant narratives, blathering on and on about how 'great' Lincoln' and the war was, while then having to turn around and snivel about the consequences of it, like his generals going after the Indians. They went after them during the war as well, Pope in Minnesota, for instance. The butchers were turned loose in the West to pursue corporate interests there as well. 'Progressives' always back the establishment, always have and always will, just as they do today, while trying to BS everybody into thinking they're 'for the little guy n stuff'. They openly murder the 'little people' at every opportunity they can do so.

In any case, the Sioux don't rate any kind of Pity Party regardless; they were big perpetrators of genocides and massacres themselves in their rise to prominence and seizing of territory. They merely got a small taste of what they dished out for centuries before Lincoln's mass murderers were turned loose on them. On the other hand, many small tribes only exist today because of Federal protections and destroying the Sioux's war making ability, tribes like the Osage for instance.