HOLY COW--Look at the purple UNION shirts campaining for SCOTT BROWN in MASS!

[hubblerules]

I'm out of time today... and the laundry list of EVERYTHING that stunk about how Obama handled the automakers is too long to get into. Suffice to say, that these manufacturers still managed to lay off ALOT of people and also move plants overseas.

Check out Spring Hill, TN for one, where the Saturn plant they relied so heavily on went belly-up. Initially, Roger Penske stepped in to buy it up, but then GM refused to give him manufacturing support past 2011. Now, that whole little town and all the dealerships relying on Saturn are in the shitter.

This isn't about "blue collar" jobs. It's about picking winners and losers... and, as always, keeping the unions coming out for Democrats. Note that it's the unions who get the life boats... not the "blue collar" joes.

I couldn't agree more - and this picking winners/losers based on crony political reasons is what has turned me from a supporter of the health care reform movement to an adament opponent...

This deal smacks of discrimination and buying votes while screwing the nation as a whole in the process - just as the Nebraska and Louisiana sweat-heart deals did also.

You changed your mind on health care?? So did many millions of other Americans. The latest backroom deal is the one made with Union heads, that Unions won't have to pay taxes on their cadillac plans while everyone else will. Cronizm, you betcha, politics as usual, you betcha. I am happy that you changed your mind.

Health care reform needs to happen, but definitely not this one. Start with tort reform, opening competition among the states, promoting HSA's- with pre-tax dollars, high deductible inexpensive catastrophic plans, allow small business to group, legislate that insurance is portable and legislate no pre-exising conditions and you will have 90% of Americans in support of it with bi-partisan support.

That's why the current debate is NOT about health care reform, it's about the takeover of 6% of our economy by the federal government. Their desire is to control you, make health care decisions for you, control more and more of your money, and eventually socialize health care for all times.

I wasn't clear.

Yes - I AM for healthcare reform - I consider the current system to be hopelessly broken.

However, I am against THIS reform proposal... the level of back-room sweat-heart deals, paybacks for political patronage, complete indifference to the average American, and the total lack of cost control makes this a very very bad piece of legislation.

I agree with the reform points you list above - I've felt we've needed them for a long time.

I would add to your list allowing insurance companies to openly compete across state boundaries, allow Americans to buy prescription drugs from abroad (or remove the laws that force us to pay for 100% of the R&D while the rest of the world gets a free ride), and put in a public-option to force the private insurance companies to be competitive and I think we'd have a very good system.

 

[noose4]

No. They aren't. They're just another voting bloc for the DNC, sprinkled liberally with bullshit down on the Democrat Plantation so their votes and campaign contributions can be harvested every two years.

It's beyond imagination to believe that every working man in this country belongs to some kind of labor union, and yet... it's alway the fucking unions in the lifeboats while Blue-Collar Joe is left to drown.

Of course we are a voting block for the DNC, why would we as union members vote for the Republicans who are anti union?

I know lots of union workers--one of them my brother--who votes his personal opinions--on what he believes is good for the country & not a voting block--aka-special interest group.

Many union members feel that way. In other words--it's not about me, me, me--it's about "we the people."

We the people do better and thus the country does better when we make a liveable wage and have good benefits, It is foolish to vote counter to such things when you have them.

 

[Maple]

this isn't over, Romney pulled even in the polls with Kennedy in '94, and lost by 17

No, it's not over, but I can't wait until Tuesday night to see who pulls it off in Massachusetts. Until then, I will keep praying for a Brown win to end the fillibuster proof senate that is currently in charge.

You think God gives a damn about who the new junior senator from Massachusetts is?

No, God doesn't, but the people do.

 

[Maple]

Of course we are a voting block for the DNC, why would we as union members vote for the Republicans who are anti union?

I know lots of union workers--one of them my brother--who votes his personal opinions--on what he believes is good for the country & not a voting block--aka-special interest group.

Many union members feel that way. In other words--it's not about me, me, me--it's about "we the people."

We the people do better and thus the country does better when we make a liveable wage and have good benefits, It is foolish to vote counter to such things when you have them.

I would agree that making a livable wage is important. But what do you have to say about the U.S automakers who went belly up. Do you think that the American people were buying cars from foriegn auto companies because they wanted to put the Union under? I think not, the foriegn auto companies were able to put out an excellent product, that lasted longer and was less expensive due to the fact that they were non-union.

I think that right now, those laid off union workers in Detroit would give their right arms to have a job anywhere, even in a non-union shop.

 

[noose4]

I know lots of union workers--one of them my brother--who votes his personal opinions--on what he believes is good for the country & not a voting block--aka-special interest group.

Many union members feel that way. In other words--it's not about me, me, me--it's about "we the people."

We the people do better and thus the country does better when we make a liveable wage and have good benefits, It is foolish to vote counter to such things when you have them.

I would agree that making a livable wage is important. But what do you have to say about the U.S automakers who went belly up. Do you think that the American people were buying cars from foriegn auto companies because they wanted to put the Union under? I think not, the foriegn auto companies were able to put out an excellent product, that lasted longer and was less expensive due to the fact that they were non-union.

I think that right now, those laid off union workers in Detroit would give their right arms to have a job anywhere, even in a non-union shop.

Thats not true, the union workers do not design the cars or provide the material used in making them, that would be the fault of the management and the engineers.

 

[sitarro]

We the people do better and thus the country does better when we make a liveable wage and have good benefits, It is foolish to vote counter to such things when you have them.

I would agree that making a livable wage is important. But what do you have to say about the U.S automakers who went belly up. Do you think that the American people were buying cars from foriegn auto companies because they wanted to put the Union under? I think not, the foriegn auto companies were able to put out an excellent product, that lasted longer and was less expensive due to the fact that they were non-union.

I think that right now, those laid off union workers in Detroit would give their right arms to have a job anywhere, even in a non-union shop.

Thats not true, the union workers do not design the cars or provide the material used in making them, that would be the fault of the management and the engineers.

I've read this whole thread and I have to say that you are one of the dumbest parrots ever. You have no real opinions, they are all your union's opinions. How pathetic that you are so weak minded that the bullshit, class warfare propaganda that your union shovels down your throat is regurgitated on this thread by you and you actually think that we are going to buy that as your thoughts.

How embarrassing for the Marines that you pretend to represent them. I don't believe for a second that you were ever a member of that fine group of patriotic Americans.

 

[Modbert]

How embarrassing for the Marines that you pretend to represent them. I don't believe for a second that you were ever a member of that fine group of patriotic Americans.

I realize your mind doesn't think much beyond how much you want to hang Obama from a tree, but that's a serious charge you're making.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

A write off has to do with the federal taxes not what goes on between an employer and an employee, but obvioudly big business and people of wealth getting preferential treatment does not bother you cons but damn it if a working guy gets a break.

Total bullshit. You can write off your business expenses just like they can. Get a new tax guy if you can't figure it out on your own.

I am a worker not a business owner and as a tax payer I should not have to subsidize somebody else's cost of doing business.

You don't...the same laws benefit you as well. If you don't take advantage of them don't blame your own failure to act on big business.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

How embarrassing for the Marines that you pretend to represent them. I don't believe for a second that you were ever a member of that fine group of patriotic Americans.

I realize your mind doesn't think much beyond how much you want to hang Obama from a tree, but that's a serious charge you're making.

I realize your mind has been feebled by constant progressive ideological indoctrination techniques employed by your matchbook university but thats a pretty serious charge you are making!

 

[sitarro]

How embarrassing for the Marines that you pretend to represent them. I don't believe for a second that you were ever a member of that fine group of patriotic Americans.

I realize your mind doesn't think much beyond how much you want to hang Obama from a tree, but that's a serious charge you're making.

Why would want to see Barry hung from a tree? I would like his incompetent ass run out of office but hung from a tree?????? Is this a joke? I don't get it.

 

[oreo]

From one perspective or "opinion" many dispute the claims made by this book.

Would you care to provide the link to your information, ya know, I do read. Otherwise, it's just your opinion and you know what is said about opinions. Everyone has one, even the dumbest of the dumb.

The book is also an opinion. No matter how well written or researched, it's all speculative. The only thing that is not up for debate is what happened. FDR got us through the depression and World War II.

People, with the benefit of a chicken in their pot, can quibble now about his "socialist" policies, but the country was in big frigging trouble and he saved it.

Obviously not everyone in America at that time liked FDR, but enough people liked him to elect him four times.

This notion that the invisible hand of the market would have eventually corrected everything is bullshit. That's exactly what Hoover believed and that's exactly what landed us in hot water.

Hoover was a good man, he just believed too strongly in American exceptionalism and refused to intervene during a crisis. Truman was also a good man for allowing him to end his public career with dignity.

The debate on the Great Depression is--did FDR'S policies prolong the depression--& that is what the book is about. And it is a very interesting prospective if you've read the Forgotten Man. During the depression unemployment climbed to it's highest to 28%--if I remember correctly--& we would get little surges in downward unemployment only to see it spike up again through-out those depression years.

After reading the book--the only thing that really brought us out of the depression was WW2.

Massive government spending does not create long term private sector job growth. That is the conclusion I came to after reading this book. And as we see today--massive government spending has not created any new job growth in the private sector & has only made it much worse.

To add--back in the 1930's we needed roads & bridges. What took thousands of men with shovels can now be done with a couple of heavy equipment operators. Our economy is so much more diverse than the 1930's that many Presidents, including JFK used tax cuts--aka trickle down economics to reach every sector of our economy to stimulate it.

The first thing that FDR did when he assumed office, was cut 100 million out of the federal budget. That was huge back in those days. A lesson from FDR--that Obama has not learned.

 

[Maple]

Would you care to provide the link to your information, ya know, I do read. Otherwise, it's just your opinion and you know what is said about opinions. Everyone has one, even the dumbest of the dumb.

The book is also an opinion. No matter how well written or researched, it's all speculative. The only thing that is not up for debate is what happened. FDR got us through the depression and World War II.

People, with the benefit of a chicken in their pot, can quibble now about his "socialist" policies, but the country was in big frigging trouble and he saved it.

Obviously not everyone in America at that time liked FDR, but enough people liked him to elect him four times.

This notion that the invisible hand of the market would have eventually corrected everything is bullshit. That's exactly what Hoover believed and that's exactly what landed us in hot water.

Hoover was a good man, he just believed too strongly in American exceptionalism and refused to intervene during a crisis. Truman was also a good man for allowing him to end his public career with dignity.

The debate on the Great Depression is--did FDR'S policies prolong the depression--& that is what the book is about. And it is a very interesting prospective if you've read the Forgotten Man. During the depression unemployment climbed to it's highest to 28%--if I remember correctly--& we would get little surges in downward unemployment only to see it spike up again through-out those depression years.

After reading the book--the only thing that really brought us out of the depression was WW2.

Massive government spending does not create long term private sector job growth. That is the conclusion I came to after reading this book. And as we see today--massive government spending has not created any new job growth in the private sector & has only made it much worse.

To add--back in the 1930's we needed roads & bridges. What took thousands of men with shovels can now be done with a couple of heavy equipment operators. Our economy is so much more diverse than the 1930's that many Presidents, including JFK used tax cuts--aka trickle down economics to reach every sector of our economy to stimulate it.

The first thing that FDR did when he assumed office, was cut 100 million out of the federal budget. That was huge back in those days. A lesson from FDR--that Obama has not learned.

Yes, it was a total different economy, farming was huge, he enacted subsidies that are still existence today and we pay farmers not to grow certain crops. But in the end, it was World War 2 that snapped us out of the depression era.

 

[oreo]

The book is also an opinion. No matter how well written or researched, it's all speculative. The only thing that is not up for debate is what happened. FDR got us through the depression and World War II.

People, with the benefit of a chicken in their pot, can quibble now about his "socialist" policies, but the country was in big frigging trouble and he saved it.

Obviously not everyone in America at that time liked FDR, but enough people liked him to elect him four times.

This notion that the invisible hand of the market would have eventually corrected everything is bullshit. That's exactly what Hoover believed and that's exactly what landed us in hot water.

Hoover was a good man, he just believed too strongly in American exceptionalism and refused to intervene during a crisis. Truman was also a good man for allowing him to end his public career with dignity.

The debate on the Great Depression is--did FDR'S policies prolong the depression--& that is what the book is about. And it is a very interesting prospective if you've read the Forgotten Man. During the depression unemployment climbed to it's highest to 28%--if I remember correctly--& we would get little surges in downward unemployment only to see it spike up again through-out those depression years.

After reading the book--the only thing that really brought us out of the depression was WW2.

Massive government spending does not create long term private sector job growth. That is the conclusion I came to after reading this book. And as we see today--massive government spending has not created any new job growth in the private sector & has only made it much worse.

To add--back in the 1930's we needed roads & bridges. What took thousands of men with shovels can now be done with a couple of heavy equipment operators. Our economy is so much more diverse than the 1930's that many Presidents, including JFK used tax cuts--aka trickle down economics to reach every sector of our economy to stimulate it.

The first thing that FDR did when he assumed office, was cut 100 million out of the federal budget. That was huge back in those days. A lesson from FDR--that Obama has not learned.

Yes, it was a total different economy, farming was huge, he enacted subsidies that are still existence today and we pay farmers not to grow certain crops. But in the end, it was World War 2 that snapped us out of the depression era.

I believe farming was the largest employer in the 1930's. And yes government subsidies are still given to some very wealthy farmers. Again to show that once a government handout is given--it never goes away. Democrats & Republicans from farming states will continually fight for subsidies that farmers no longer need.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Not really that suprising. In New York, SEIU has consistantly supported all republican candidates for state senate.

I LOVE your Selective and Incomplete Quotes of People!



peace...

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[noose4]

Total bullshit. You can write off your business expenses just like they can. Get a new tax guy if you can't figure it out on your own.

I am a worker not a business owner and as a tax payer I should not have to subsidize somebody else's cost of doing business.

You don't...the same laws benefit you as well. If you don't take advantage of them don't blame your own failure to act on big business.

By that standard the union exemption, when it goes into affect, will be law and you should quit your whining over it.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

I am a worker not a business owner and as a tax payer I should not have to subsidize somebody else's cost of doing business.

You don't...the same laws benefit you as well. If you don't take advantage of them don't blame your own failure to act on big business.

By that standard the union exemption, when it goes into affect, will be law and you should quit your whining over it.

Sorry. Incorrect. Now if that benefit applied to ALL Americans with a cadillac health insurance plan then you would have a case. Until then you still have a BRIBE!

 

[Annie]

Surprising but obvious too, people do not like to hear they will have their healthcare changed or costs will be added. Mass has 97% coverage now. I see it as normal human selfishness and self centered-ness. You'd think union people would consider a stronger do unto others ethic, but I guess that expects too much.

I do wonder if you even considered that they may be against the Obamacare because of their experience with MA mandatory program?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...consider_state_s_health_care_reform_a_success

 

[Maple]

I am a worker not a business owner and as a tax payer I should not have to subsidize somebody else's cost of doing business.

You don't...the same laws benefit you as well. If you don't take advantage of them don't blame your own failure to act on big business.

By that standard the union exemption, when it goes into affect, will be law and you should quit your whining over it.

No, the same laws do not benefit the NON-union worker- Unions will be exempted from paying taxes on thier cadillac plans. The NON-UNION worker will pay those taxes. If you think that's a whine, you are out of your mind. That is blatant, in your face, corruption, it's a special interest group that has been allowed to put pressure on the administration to favor one set of people over another. You think people are angry now? you have seen nothing yet.

Read the article Noose-it's in your face- GOOD GRIEF!!!!

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...-from-Dem-health-care-tax_06_23-48810402.html

Baucus is also weighing a tax based on the value of health care benefits that exceed a yet-to-be determined cap. A tax on benefits that exceed the cap by a mere $3,000 could amount to $750 in taxes annually for a worker who earns as little as $34,000, say experts.

But those union members serving under collective bargaining agreements would not be subjected to the tax, according to proposals under discussion.

Union workers enjoy some of the most extensive and costliest health benefits, and union officials complained their members would be unfairly burdened by a health care tax because their contracts cannot be changed quickly enough to avoid it.

Union members also represent one of the biggest and most powerful Democratic constituencies and their support of any health care reform proposal is viewed as essential to getting a bill passed in Congress.

Baucus has proposed the tax threshold on health care benefits be set higher than the cost of policies available to federal employees and he has proposed exempting until 2013 those plans negotiated as part of union contracts.

“It’s a means of making sure that unions are foursquare behind any reform bill that comes out,” said Henry Aaron, a health care policy expert at Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

It's flat out CORRUPTION and bending to the will of SPECIAL INTERESTS to the expense and detriment to the REST of us.

 

[hubblerules]

You are so right - this is not 'whining' - it is standing up against discrimination and crony politics and blatant bribing of political constituents with OUR tax dollars...

You are also right - all non-union folks are FUMING over this - and it is going to come back to haunt the Democrats in November - and that comes from a registered Democrat - me!

Calling us whiners reminds me of Phil Graham calling us whiners about the recession...

We won't be brushed aside that easily - and it is dirty back-room deals like this that is setting the American public squarely against this reform bill - and getting them angry enough to vote the bums out of office come November.

 

[noose4]

You don't...the same laws benefit you as well. If you don't take advantage of them don't blame your own failure to act on big business.

By that standard the union exemption, when it goes into affect, will be law and you should quit your whining over it.

Sorry. Incorrect. Now if that benefit applied to ALL Americans with a cadillac health insurance plan then you would have a case. Until then you still have a BRIBE!

I see special privileges for the wealthy are ok but Joe blue collar gets a break it's a bribe, typical conservative thinking.