historical qoutes and speeches

[Shogun]

How democrates operate now is pretty much the opposite of those words.

thats rich, BERN.

 

[Larkinn]

A truly awesome spin. Great work!

Nice responding to the substance there, Bern.

not backtracking at all I still believe exactley what I said. How democrates operate now is pretty much the opposite of those words. Unless of course do the big spin dance you dad to avoid a contradiction by claiming pay more taxes is 'doing for your country.'

How exactly is paying more taxes not doing anything for your country?

And by the way, you still haven't (gee whiz, what a surprise) explained what they do that is the opposite of those words.

 

[Bern80]

I notice you don't bother admitting that in the same thread where Skull Pilot's interest has been piqued...

Skull pilot can think whatever he wants to think. I haven't responded to any of his posts we may agree and we may not, what exactley does posting the same thing in another thread accomplish?

MY point was to answer your goofy little JFK question. I take it that my answer works for you?

You didn't answer the question. Why seemingly do the dems operate from a different set of values then what a fellow dem once advocated. Has the democratic party really changed from that? Or do you think JFK meant by those words that dems operate exactley as they do now? I think the essence of JFK's statement is that the citizens of a country need to recognize that they have a social responsiblity, if able, to be productive members of society and not be a burden to it and by extension to not be a burden to government. That is not incompatible from stating government can and will be there to help when you need it.

 

[Shogun]

Like I siad, BERN, given the evidence of your own behaviour, we HAVE taken responsibility in society by creating a support structure that increases our standard of living. If Liberals, JFK and the world doesn't operate according to your opinion of that which is considered "responsible" then so be it. If You wanna sit there and twist JFKs words around your silly little mud rake then don't get to bent outa shape when I keep laughing at your fencepost position on social programs.

Heaven forbid you remain consistent or anything...

 

[Bern80]

Like I siad, BERN, given the evidence of your own behaviour, we HAVE taken responsibility in society by creating a support structure that increases our standard of living. If Liberals, JFK and the world doesn't operate according to your opinion of that which is considered "responsible" then so be it. If You wanna sit there and twist JFKs words around your silly little mud rake then don't get to bent outa shape when I keep laughing at your fencepost position on social programs.

Heaven forbid you remain consistent or anything...

Like I said, hell of spin. You managed to turn paying taxes to the government (the 'country' JFK would be referring to) for social programs into equalling "ask not what your country can do for you." Is that the limit of your imagination? Opening your pocket book to the government? I'm not the one doing the spinning friend.

How you were able to turn doing for your country into paying more money for social programs, rather than recognizing social responsibility to make yourself productive is quite amazing.

 

[Larkinn]

Like I said, hell of spin. You managed to turn paying taxes to the government (the 'country' JFK would be referring to) for social programs into equalling "ask not what your country can do for you." Is that the limit of your imagination? Opening your pocket book to the government? I'm not the one doing the spinning friend.

How you were able to turn doing for your country into paying more money for social programs, rather than recognizing social responsibility to make yourself productive is quite amazing.

No...paying taxes isn't helping your country, but working productively somehow is? Tell me how an ibanker working in NYC is doing so much for the country, Bern.

Btw...gonna answer my question from before?

 

[Bern80]

No...paying taxes isn't helping your country, but working productively somehow is? Tell me how an ibanker working in NYC is doing so much for the country, Bern.

Because they are providing for themselves rather than being dependant on government. The democrat party has changed to such an extent that seems to think it is there job to think up new things to do for people and thus become make them more dependant on government.

Btw...gonna answer my question from before?

What question?

 

[Shogun]

Like I said, hell of spin. You managed to turn paying taxes to the government (the 'country' JFK would be referring to) for social programs into equalling "ask not what your country can do for you." Is that the limit of your imagination? Opening your pocket book to the government? I'm not the one doing the spinning friend.

How you were able to turn doing for your country into paying more money for social programs, rather than recognizing social responsibility to make yourself productive is quite amazing.

I guess the opinion of which of us is spinning depends on who is trying to insist that their personal shit don't stink, eh? By your own example we can see how "paying the government taxes" amounts to necessary socialism. were you busy remembering JFK quotes during your unemployed six months? no.. THEN such socialism is necessary, eh BERN? You could be a dradle for for halloween, dude.


What should be amazing is how you are trying to poke a stick at the very socialism that you participated in in some last ditch effort to rationalize your own behaviour. hiding behind JFK probably doesn't make the irony any richer.

 

[jillian]

Because they are providing for themselves rather than being dependant on government. The democrat party has changed to such an extent that seems to think it is there job to think up new things to do for people and thus become make them more dependant on government.



What question?

Do you honestly think working and paying your bills was what Kennedy was talking about when he said "ask not..."? That's absurd. It's the same non-logic that allowed Mitt Romney to counter the fact that not a single one of his sons served in the military in a military action that he wants others' sons to fight, by saying "they are serving their country, they're working on my campaign". ... Ridiculous.

Kennedy was talking about the Peace Corps... about public service... about helping people... the exact polar opposite of what you're talking about. He was talking about altruism. You are talking about self-involvement.

So, when you bemoan the democrats somehow not following Kennedy's words, you probably should understand what he was talking about.

 

[Bern80]

I guess the opinion of which of us is spinning depends on who is trying to insist that their personal shit don't stink, eh? By your own example we can see how "paying the government taxes" amounts to necessary socialism. were you busy remembering JFK quotes during your unemployed six months? no.. THEN such socialism is necessary, eh BERN? You could be a dradle for for halloween, dude.


What should be amazing is how you are trying to poke a stick at the very socialism that you participated in in some last ditch effort to rationalize your own behaviour. hiding behind JFK probably doesn't make the irony any richer.

It is ironic to you because despite your conttinued insistance to the contrary I am not or have ever been anti-social programs. You are the one who wants to make the leap that doing means I have to be for full blown socialism. Again why do you not get that every argument, every whitty little come back you've made, is based on an assumption that is not accurate. Further why after I have repeatedly stated I don't hold the position you profess do you keep posting as if i do?

 

[Bern80]

Do you honestly think working and paying your bills was what Kennedy was talking about when he said "ask not..."? That's absurd. It's the same non-logic that allowed Mitt Romney to counter the fact that not a single one of his sons served in the military in a military action that he wants others' sons to fight, by saying "they are serving their country, they're working on my campaign". ... Ridiculous.

Kennedy was talking about the Peace Corps... about public service... about helping people... the exact polar opposite of what you're talking about. He was talking about altruism. You are talking about self-involvement.

So, when you bemoan the democrats somehow not following Kennedy's words, you probably should understand what he was talking about.

So it is your contention of well that he means pretty much the opposite of the words that came out of his mouth? You guys stick with that, it'll go a long way.

 

[Shogun]

It is ironic to you because despite your conttinued insistance to the contrary I am not or have ever been anti-social programs. You are the one who wants to make the leap that doing means I have to be for full blown socialism. Again why do you not get that every argument, every whitty little come back you've made, is based on an assumption that is not accurate. Further why after I have repeatedly stated I don't hold the position you profess do you keep posting as if i do?

then WHY ask a silly lil loaded question about JFK, BERN? Is it because you are trying to convey that democrats have somehow allowed our culture to accept handout solutions even though you, yourself, are bouncing back and forth on the necessity of such socialism? do you want to draw the line in the sand here, BERN, or can we keep guessing what should and shouldn't fall inside your circle of criticism here? Your posted opinions are probably not the basis of my assumptions about your positions, dude.. nope. After all, most people who admit to the necessity of social programs probably DO dangle silly little JFK quotes like cheese on a mousetrap..

 

[Shogun]

So it is your contention of well that he means pretty much the opposite of the words that came out of his mouth? You guys stick with that, it'll go a long way.

It's MY contention that "ask what you can do for your country" has been achieved by evidence of your own six month employment vacation, BERN. Feel free to ride that fence though.

 

[jillian]

So it is your contention of well that he means pretty much the opposite of the words that came out of his mouth? You guys stick with that, it'll go a long way.

Perhaps you need to know what you're talking about before you speak to this issue...

Vice President Johnson, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens, we observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom—symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning—signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago. 1
The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. 2
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. 3
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
This much we pledge—and more. 5
To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do—for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder. 6
To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom—and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside. 7
To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required—not because the Communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. 8 To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge—to convert our good words into good deeds—in a new alliance for progress—to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbors know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house. 9
To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support—to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective—to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak—and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run. 10
Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction. 11
We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed. 12
But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course—both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war. 13
So let us begin anew—remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate. 14 Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us. 15
Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms—and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations. 16
Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. 17 Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free." 18
And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved. 19
All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin. 20
In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than in mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe. 21
Now the trumpet summons us again—not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are—but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation"—a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. 22
Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort? 23
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility—I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it—and the glow from that fire can truly light the world. 24
And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. 25
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man. 26
Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own. 27
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html

 

[Bern80]

Perhaps you need to know what you're talking about before you speak to this issue...

Vice President Johnson, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens, we observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom—symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning—signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago. 1
The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. 2
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. 3
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
This much we pledge—and more. 5
To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do—for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder. 6
To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom—and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside. 7
To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required—not because the Communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. 8 To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge—to convert our good words into good deeds—in a new alliance for progress—to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbors know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house. 9
To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support—to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective—to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak—and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run. 10
Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction. 11
We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed. 12
But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course—both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war. 13
So let us begin anew—remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate. 14 Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us. 15
Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms—and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations. 16
Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. 17 Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free." 18
And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved. 19
All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin. 20
In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than in mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe. 21
Now the trumpet summons us again—not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are—but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation"—a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. 22
Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort? 23
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility—I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it—and the glow from that fire can truly light the world. 24
And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. 25
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man. 26
Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own. 27
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html

Yes i have previously read the entire speach from which I can't see how suggesting that makeing the effort to not make yourself a burden put's me way off base.

Describe 'doing for your country' however you want. My interpretation or your interpretation doesn't matter, all is well and good. 'Ask not what your country can do for you' is another animal entirely. That screams of a notion of shying away from dependence.

 

[Bern80]

It's MY contention that "ask what you can do for your country" has been achieved by evidence of your own six month employment vacation, BERN. Feel free to ride that fence though.

Still can't stop the assumptions can you? We are all 'riding the fence'. I am not for nothing but capitalism and no social programs any more than you are for government control of all industries.

 

[Larkinn]

Because they are providing for themselves rather than being dependant on government.

JFK said "think what you can do for your country not what your country can do for you". He did NOT say "think what you can do for yourself, not what your country can do for you". See the difference?

The democrat party has changed to such an extent that seems to think it is there job to think up new things to do for people and thus become make them more dependant on government.

They want to give more low and middle income people more opportunities to succeed in this country. That will make this a better country and make this a better society. I am willing to give for that goal, are you?

What question?

And by the way, you still haven't (gee whiz, what a surprise) explained what they do that is the opposite of those words.

 

[Larkinn]

Still can't stop the assumptions can you? We are all 'riding the fence'. I am not for nothing but capitalism and no social programs any more than you are for government control of all industries.

Then why the hell do you equate government programs with "making people dependent on government"? Or are they only the same thing when Democrats want social programs?

 

[eots]

“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.”
Martin Luther King, Jr. quotes (American Baptist Minister and Civil-Rights Leader. 1929-1968)

 

[Bern80]

JFK said "think what you can do for your country not what your country can do for you". He did NOT say "think what you can do for yourself, not what your country can do for you". See the difference?

I see recognizing a social responsibility to minimize your burden on government as doing for your country.

They want to give more low and middle income people more opportunities to succeed in this country. That will make this a better country and make this a better society. I am willing to give for that goal, are you?

You bet, but I'd be curious if you mean more opportunites or more equal outcomes.

And by the way, you still haven't (gee whiz, what a surprise) explained what they do that is the opposite of those words.

By opposite as I noted to Jillian my focus would be on "ask not what your country can do for you" which means not looking to government for all the answers, while today government seems to want to provide all the answers.