Historical Jesus: The unchanging reality of the New Testament record.

[Foxfyre]

Whatever floats your boat. Why don't you try making an argument instead of bitching about how I make mine?

You're in denial. I made my argument by pointing out the flaws in your argument. You failed to adequately make your argument without the logical fallacy of special pleading with an added appeal to authority. It appears that I have triggered an abnormal ego defense mechanism in you.

Sorry but I haven't seen any arguments against my arguments, only a lot of unspporting speculation plus evaluation of my posting style and mental state. I suggest the latter is not the topic of this thread, though I am sure it would be fascinating to do in an appropriate thread.

I rest my case, later...

Thank goodness. It definitely needed to be rested.

 

[Iceweasel]

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

We have no extant biblical texts preserved through history, how would we have something from Socrates 450-500 years earlier? Where's the evidence he never wrote anything down? That said, many disagree on what exactly he did say and some claim Plato used his name to further his own philosophy.

To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling. It makes no sense but that's the kind of things one must do to hold onto their faith. The more one learns and thinks the greater the challenge.

??? The evidence that we have no writings from Socrates is that we have no writings or copied writings from Socrates. Nobody claims to have had any writings from Socrates. Nobody who has written about Socrates has referred to any writings of Socrates. Just as nobody who has written about Jesus has referred to any writings of Jesus. Ditto for Buddha and the others. Given all that, it is reasonably safe to say these people left us no writings. What some theorize about all that is irrelevent to the fact that there is no record of any kind of any writings provided from certain historical figures.

Now speaking of people not reading people's posts carefully, I will again object to my posts being mischaracterized or misrepresented. I said nothing even remotely close to your statement: "To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling." So again I would appreciate your correcting that by acknowledging that I did not say it.

The only reason Christian and Jewish writings occurred is due to religious devotion and were copied from one generation to the next. Most certainly the words of Jesus would be preserved. You are suffering from cognitive dissonance.

I would appreciate a little less drama and a little more honesty from you. You said

"I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it."

Which is what I paraphrased. No rational thinking could hold that view. The fact that we are talking about the salvation of eternal souls and not just philosophical mutterings makes it all the more unreasonable.

The fact that the early church was divided on something as major as salvation for the Jews or all of man shows just how important it would have been.

But it didn't happen because the Jesus story was cobbled together from anecdotal accounts, philosophy and Hebrew application of OT in contemporary life, which is still done today. The earlier writings of Philo demonstrate it quite well, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I am sorry, but I have read your post three times now and have no idea what you are saying here or how you are in any way rebutting what I said. And sorry if you think I'm being too dramatic. I argue the way I argue and I suggest those who find it displeasing can easily avoid it by not reading or responding to my posts. Deal?

Oh fuck you, you smug asshole. Your head is so far up your ass it would take an archaeological dig to find it. I refuted all your bullshit and you simply stuffed your head up further. I'm going to correct your bullshit, lies, misinformation and slander when I see it. Deal?

 

[Iceweasel]

Sorry but I haven't seen any arguments against my arguments, only a lot of unspporting speculation plus evaluation of my posting style and mental state. I suggest the latter is not the topic of this thread, though I am sure it would be fascinating to do in an appropriate thread.

You can't see anything you don't already believe. You haven't really argued against it except to say Jesus didn't write anything down so people could find him spiritually. The thoughts of a brainwashed nonthinker.

 

[Foxfyre]

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

We have no extant biblical texts preserved through history, how would we have something from Socrates 450-500 years earlier? Where's the evidence he never wrote anything down? That said, many disagree on what exactly he did say and some claim Plato used his name to further his own philosophy.

To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling. It makes no sense but that's the kind of things one must do to hold onto their faith. The more one learns and thinks the greater the challenge.

??? The evidence that we have no writings from Socrates is that we have no writings or copied writings from Socrates. Nobody claims to have had any writings from Socrates. Nobody who has written about Socrates has referred to any writings of Socrates. Just as nobody who has written about Jesus has referred to any writings of Jesus. Ditto for Buddha and the others. Given all that, it is reasonably safe to say these people left us no writings. What some theorize about all that is irrelevent to the fact that there is no record of any kind of any writings provided from certain historical figures.

Now speaking of people not reading people's posts carefully, I will again object to my posts being mischaracterized or misrepresented. I said nothing even remotely close to your statement: "To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling." So again I would appreciate your correcting that by acknowledging that I did not say it.

The only reason Christian and Jewish writings occurred is due to religious devotion and were copied from one generation to the next. Most certainly the words of Jesus would be preserved. You are suffering from cognitive dissonance.

I would appreciate a little less drama and a little more honesty from you. You said

"I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it."

Which is what I paraphrased. No rational thinking could hold that view. The fact that we are talking about the salvation of eternal souls and not just philosophical mutterings makes it all the more unreasonable.

The fact that the early church was divided on something as major as salvation for the Jews or all of man shows just how important it would have been.

But it didn't happen because the Jesus story was cobbled together from anecdotal accounts, philosophy and Hebrew application of OT in contemporary life, which is still done today. The earlier writings of Philo demonstrate it quite well, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I am sorry, but I have read your post three times now and have no idea what you are saying here or how you are in any way rebutting what I said. And sorry if you think I'm being too dramatic. I argue the way I argue and I suggest those who find it displeasing can easily avoid it by not reading or responding to my posts. Deal?

Oh fuck you, you smug asshole. Your head is so far up your ass it would take an archaeological dig to find it. I refuted all your bullshit and you simply stuffed your head up further. I'm going to correct your bullshit, lies, misinformation and slander when I see it. Deal?

Wow, most people aren't so explicit when they are out of ammunition and go into full attack mode. But I accept your defeat. Do have a nice day.

 

[Iceweasel]

We have no extant biblical texts preserved through history, how would we have something from Socrates 450-500 years earlier? Where's the evidence he never wrote anything down? That said, many disagree on what exactly he did say and some claim Plato used his name to further his own philosophy.

To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling. It makes no sense but that's the kind of things one must do to hold onto their faith. The more one learns and thinks the greater the challenge.

??? The evidence that we have no writings from Socrates is that we have no writings or copied writings from Socrates. Nobody claims to have had any writings from Socrates. Nobody who has written about Socrates has referred to any writings of Socrates. Just as nobody who has written about Jesus has referred to any writings of Jesus. Ditto for Buddha and the others. Given all that, it is reasonably safe to say these people left us no writings. What some theorize about all that is irrelevent to the fact that there is no record of any kind of any writings provided from certain historical figures.

Now speaking of people not reading people's posts carefully, I will again object to my posts being mischaracterized or misrepresented. I said nothing even remotely close to your statement: "To say Jesus didn't want accurate information so people could receive the Holy Spirit is mind boggling." So again I would appreciate your correcting that by acknowledging that I did not say it.

The only reason Christian and Jewish writings occurred is due to religious devotion and were copied from one generation to the next. Most certainly the words of Jesus would be preserved. You are suffering from cognitive dissonance.

I would appreciate a little less drama and a little more honesty from you. You said

"I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it."

Which is what I paraphrased. No rational thinking could hold that view. The fact that we are talking about the salvation of eternal souls and not just philosophical mutterings makes it all the more unreasonable.

The fact that the early church was divided on something as major as salvation for the Jews or all of man shows just how important it would have been.

But it didn't happen because the Jesus story was cobbled together from anecdotal accounts, philosophy and Hebrew application of OT in contemporary life, which is still done today. The earlier writings of Philo demonstrate it quite well, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I am sorry, but I have read your post three times now and have no idea what you are saying here or how you are in any way rebutting what I said. And sorry if you think I'm being too dramatic. I argue the way I argue and I suggest those who find it displeasing can easily avoid it by not reading or responding to my posts. Deal?

Oh fuck you, you smug asshole. Your head is so far up your ass it would take an archaeological dig to find it. I refuted all your bullshit and you simply stuffed your head up further. I'm going to correct your bullshit, lies, misinformation and slander when I see it. Deal?

Wow, most people aren't so explicit when they are out of ammunition and go into full attack mode. But I accept your defeat. Do have a nice day.

You're a smear monger. I haven't scratched the surface and you lie and say I'm out of ammo? Who do you think you are?

You have Sunday school level answers and dismiss anything you can't handle. You shouldn't be here discussing the Bible, I've been researching it for 25 years, you have no idea what I've learned, I threw a few things out.

I will point out the idiocy of your claim that it requires faith to not share your beliefs and I'll point out the holes in your answers. Your latest being that Jesus didn't write anything down because he want the Holy Spirit to guide the people. That's irrational and takes a Moonie mentality hold. Just stand on the street corner and pass out flowers and leave the discussion to those willing to have and honest dialogue.